HS2

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

... which is the whole point, really. The traffic in low-cost labour from Eastern Europe was always a one-way traffic, and the bus operators and low-cost airlines had it covered. If you want to travel from Manchester or Liverpool to Europe for business, you can fly round-trip in a day. 

 

The British, particularly the English feel no particular need to visit Europe in large numbers, apart from holidays in Spain and other places where train isn't an option. 

 

 

Youve never been to an airport at Christmas then ?

 

The traffic was definitely two way, families come to visit, a lot of those labourers would return home to visit family. This was an ongoing stream. many labourers would return home taking anything with them to build their own homes, palaces, retreats, holiday homes etc in their own countries… because the long term cost of being here was great.

As for business, Britain used Europe much more than Europe used Britain, we properly explored the European market. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by adb968008

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And I really wish the politicos would make it clear to the idiots of this country why this line is being constructed - that is long overdue and is at the root of much of the appallingly uninformed muttering and spluttering questioning the very idea of the line.

 

How about making them wait for several hours on a station platform while a succession of long freight trains roll by?

 

 

[APOLLO]

I would say most (but certainly not all) people who travel by air from Manchester to Heathrow have onward continental / intercontinental air connections. This may well be different for airports further north.

 

As we approach 2030 (and onwards) given the push for EV's and general increase in driving costs, taxes, charges etc here in the UK we really do need to transform and join up ALL our public transport. This will need £Billions and I can't really see it happening. Yes we need HS2, but that is nowhere near enough on a national scale.

 

I fear what is going on in Oxford (etc) is just the start of the end of travel freedoms that we all have been used to.

 

Time will tell

 

Brit15

[Northmoor]

37 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

HS2 suffers from the extra pressure of a country full of NIMBYs constantly carping and being pandered to.

Don't forget the YoSHIEs as well, Phil; YoSHIE = (I don't want it, so) You Shan't Have It Either.

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not True!

 

A French customer can board a Paris or Brussels bound Eurostar with NO CHECKS!

 

Living in a family of dual nationals, I am genuinely interested in this statement.

 

Exiting the UK at St Pancras, and avoiding security, immigration etc and getting on the train directly to Paris or Brussels would be a very interesting development…

 

1. It would be against EU law to discriminate passengers based on which EU passport they hold.

2. it would seem beyond belief that there is a secret doorway in St Pancras for exclusive use of French passengers, that allows exiting the UK without going through immigration.

 

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Similarly trains from London to Amsterdam call at the DOMESTIC part of Brussels Midi station allowing ANYONE to bord them for the onward trip to Amsterdam

 

Lets use facts… March 3rd…

0604 London to Amsterdam calls at Brussels at 0900 and arrives Amsterdam 1113.

 

Eurostar offers nothing on its site to support a 9am from Brussels to Amsterdam..

 

neither does Thalys…

 

 

neither does DB (which is the definitive European passenger timetable resource)…. Listing most rail operators..

 

 

 

How do I know this, besides the time table… well Ive travelled on it.. 

 

Amsterdam to London is sealed.

 

The platform at Amsterdam is closed / locked, all passengers have to go through immigration at the far end of the platform at Amsterdam.

 

 

in this building you scan your bag, check both Dutch then UK immigration, and have to wait inside until the platform is sealed…

 

then you board…

 

 

 

in this picture you can just make out the physical barrier across platform separateing 15a from 15b whilst Eurostar is in the platform.

 

At Brussels, the platform is sealed, although the doors can be opened, no one is allowed off the train…. Security is stationed every second coach to ask you to reboard should you try…. And Brussels -London passengers are allowed on board.

 

 

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Why do you think you used to be able to wander off the platform at Paris onto the concourse ather than passing through a maze of passages watched over by immigration and customs peopled as occurred in the UK even BEFORE Brexit.

 

 

 

On the Paris point, you could and still can exit walk straight out off the platform at Gare De Nord, I did just recently… however thats a choice of French customs not to check exiting passengers, its not a “right”… they can shut that door and check everyone anytime they like. What you cannot do… is walk from the concourse and directly onto a Eurostar.. you have to go upstairs and through scanning, immigration etc…

here is a picture taken through that glass door.. the platform is sealed before boarding, the passenger waiting room is above the train

 

 

Domestic “EU” travel on Eurostar is no longer possible post Brexit, because you leave the EU and have entered the UK once youve done the passport checks….

 

However what do I know, I’m only a passenger, take Eurostars word for it…

https://www.eurostar.com/be-en/train/amsterdam-brussels

 

Quote

Changes to our services between the Netherlands and Belgium

Passengers will be unable to travel from the Netherlands to Belgium on our trains until further notice. This is because of changes to our services due to ongoing travel and border restrictions.

Passengers will only be able to board our trains from Amsterdam or Rotterdam if they’re travelling direct to London.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

29 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

As we approach 2030 (and onwards) given the push for EV's and general increase in driving costs, taxes, charges etc here in the UK we really do need to transform and join up ALL our public transport. This will need £Billions and I can't really see it happening. Yes we need HS2, but that is nowhere near enough on a national scale.

 

I fear what is going on in Oxford (etc) is just the start of the end of travel freedoms that we all have been used to.

 

A bit like our energy decisions, we've had years to plan a structured energy policy non dependent on fossil fuels, but it needs a nuclear option to baseline under all the wind, solar and water based schemes - how hard have successive governments made this to where we are today at the perils of a destabilised gas based solution.

[rockershovel]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Youve never been to an airport at Christmas then ?

 

The traffic was definitely too way, families come to visit, a lot of those labourers would return home to visit family. This was an ongoing stream. many labourers would return home taking anything with them to build their own homes, palaces, retreats, holiday homes etc in their own countries… because the long term cost of being here was great.

As for business, Britain used Europe much more than Europe used Britain, we properly explored the European market. 

You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting my point, which was that East European Labour came IN, but there was no corresponding return traffic of British to Europe.

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting my point, which was that East European Labour came IN, but there was no corresponding return traffic of British to Europe.

Who cares which passport they hold, if the bus, train, plane is full ?

 

I fail to see the relevance.

 

Most passengers use return tickets, regardless where the journey originated… At some point they go home, even if they come straight back on a new ticket.

Edited February 13, 2023 by adb968008

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Not everything happens in an office. AI will soon do all that stuff.

 

This is work:

 

 

 

 

 

Martin.

 

That's designed to crack two politicians heads together, on the remote chance some sense would result.............👍

[melmerby]

duplicate - deleted

Edited February 13, 2023 by melmerby

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Obviously for shorter distances, rail has the time advantage, but the point to point comparisons often used are just fantasy rubbish.

For a start, they always assume a traveller is starting and ending their journey at the departure and destination railway stations and take no account of journey times between their actual start and end points and the railway station, nor add any time at a station, prior to boarding and train departure.

An other important factor in running these comparisons, is that most city to city travel, is actually home to city or city to home.

Home is more likely to be at a peripheral or out of town location, therefore requiring additional travel time.

For example, if departing from St. Pancras International, it might take anything from 15 minutes to over an hour to even get to the station door.

In the St. Pancras example, don’t forget the time required for check-in, security and passport control.

 

Even on domestic journeys, the large numbers of passengers who arrive at termini such as Waterloo, Kings X and Euston (for example), with plenty of time to spend at an eatery or in the shops, never mind adding contingency time, is self evident. 

 

.

But, for most of us, the difficulty of accessing (other than by car) an airport offering a service in the desired direction of travel is usually even greater. Parking to catch a budget flight can cost as much as the air fare if going for more than a week!

 

By train from my local station (a 10-15 minute walk), I have a direct (albeit tardy) service to London and access to the Midlands and North via one change without crossing the metropolis. As always, it's travelling from West to East that is more complicated by rail.

 

I'll be roughly equidistant from accessing HS2 at either London or Birmingham, so I doubt I'll bother.

 

John

Edited February 13, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[ess1uk]

im guessing HS2 will go ETCS from day 1?

[Edwin_m]

23 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

im guessing HS2 will go ETCS from day 1?

Indeed.

[KingEdwardII]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Parking to catch a budget flight can cost as much as the air fare

Hmm, station parking in our part of Hampshire can be at least as eye-wateringly expensive, so the train does not have so much of an advantage there. £10 a day is not unusual. The alternative for us is a taxi since buses don't go within a mile of our home.

 

Admittedly, there are stations elsewhere with more reasonable charges - Alnmouth in Northumberland last week was a snip at £1.50 for the day.

 

Yours, Mike.

[lmsforever]

Today I read a news item about HS2 and whether or not it should be stopped now ,the question of what will happen to the work already started and who would carry out such remedial operations to the scar across England was not discussed..The writers insinuate that  our MP,s are the only people in favour of the project. I am not so sure of this but many of them did not vote for it so this takes the overall statement into dispute.The writers are saying no trains to Euston before 2038 or later  and that any extension beyond Birmingham  should be stopped and the number of trains be halved and be run slower .If this happenned you might as well stop now because the line will become a complete waste of time and money. You do not read anything like this about proposed roads but rail its all a waste of money confirming that rail  is discriminated against.. All of this sniping at HS2 could have an effect on the project and how will the future pan out who knows ,

[jamie92208]

14 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Today I read a news item about HS2 and whether or not it should be stopped now ,the question of what will happen to the work already started and who would carry out such remedial operations to the scar across England was not discussed..The writers insinuate that  our MP,s are the only people in favour of the project. I am not so sure of this but many of them did not vote for it so this takes the overall statement into dispute.The writers are saying no trains to Euston before 2038 or later  and that any extension beyond Birmingham  should be stopped and the number of trains be halved and be run slower .If this happenned you might as well stop now because the line will become a complete waste of time and money. You do not read anything like this about proposed roads but rail its all a waste of money confirming that rail  is discriminated against.. All of this sniping at HS2 could have an effect on the project and how will the future pan out who knows ,

There does seem to be a lot of sniping at the moment. Fortunately  the work is goi g on apace without interruption.   Many similar things were said about Crossrail at the same stage. That went on and now is carrying almost double the expected number of passengers.   The same happenned  with The Borders Line.  I'm not worrying.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

On 13/02/2023 at 11:03, jamie92208 said:

Gentlemen, please can we leave the politics and history out of this thread.  The first HS2 thread got closed down be abuse of those two subjects.  The late Mike Storey started this thread to be about the construction of HS2. At that time the legislation had been passed and construction was about to stzrt.  Please can we keep to the construction, and of course any announcements  about additions and subtractions to the scheme.

 

Jamie

 

Oops. Guilty. Apologies. 

 

Memoriae Sacrum etc.

[phil-b259]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Living in a family of dual nationals, I am genuinely interested in this statement.

 

Exiting the UK at St Pancras, and avoiding security, immigration etc and getting on the train directly to Paris or Brussels would be a very interesting development…

 

1. It would be against EU law to discriminate passengers based on which EU passport they hold.

2. it would seem beyond belief that there is a secret doorway in St Pancras for exclusive use of French passengers, that allows exiting the UK without going through immigration.

 

 

Lets use facts… March 3rd…

0604 London to Amsterdam calls at Brussels at 0900 and arrives Amsterdam 1113.

 

Eurostar offers nothing on its site to support a 9am from Brussels to Amsterdam..
 

 

neither does Thalys…

 

neither does DB (which is the definitive European passenger timetable resource)…. Listing most rail operators..

 

How do I know this, besides the time table… well Ive travelled on it.. 

 

Amsterdam to London is sealed.

 

The platform at Amsterdam is closed / locked, all passengers have to go through immigration at the far end of the platform at Amsterdam.

 

in this building you scan your bag, check both Dutch then UK immigration, and have to wait inside until the platform is sealed…

 

then you board…

 

in this picture you can just make out the physical barrier across platform separateing 15a from 15b whilst Eurostar is in the platform.
 

At Brussels, the platform is sealed, although the doors can be opened, no one is allowed off the train…. Security is stationed every second coach to ask you to reboard should you try…. And Brussels -London passengers are allowed on board.

 

On the Paris point, you could and still can exit walk straight out off the platform at Gare De Nord, I did just recently… however thats a choice of French customs not to check exiting passengers, its not a “right”… they can shut that door and check everyone anytime they like. What you cannot do… is walk from the concourse and directly onto a Eurostar.. you have to go upstairs and through scanning, immigration etc…

here is a picture taken through that glass door.. the platform is sealed before boarding, the passenger waiting room is above the train

 

Domestic “EU” travel on Eurostar is no longer possible post Brexit, because you leave the EU and have entered the UK once youve done the passport checks….

 

However what do I know, I’m only a passenger, take Eurostars word for it…

https://www.eurostar.com/be-en/train/amsterdam-brussels

 

 

 

This is useful information - but with respect what happens now is NOT what happened when Eurostar first opened.

 

It certainly used to be the case that SNCF regarded Eurostar services between Paris and Lille plus Liile and Brussels as simply a differently painted TGV - and Eurostar departures were fully ingratiated into the TGV Nord service patten. The only difference between catching a 'regular' TGV service and a Eurostar one for nationals of Schengen states was they had to use the Eurostar entrance!

 

After a few years there was a big UK tabloid press scandal when it emerged that this integrated approach was facilitating people claiming asylum - they would board Eurostar on a Paris - Lille ticket and simply fail to get off (destroying their tickets in the train loos once under the sea)!

 

IIRC this bought the first change in that passengers wanting to use London bound Eurostar services within France / Belgium had to either present their national ID card (issued by a state that was part of the Schengen) scheme or their passport to UK border force staff with their ticket at the Eurostar terminal. Coming the other way there was no change - passengers could freely board a Paris or Brussels bound Eurostar at Lille with no need to pass through the Eurostar terminal.

 

Further UK paranoia over illegal migration may well have subsequently caused the regime to be tightened further - and in that respect I can quite believe that Amsterdam - London trains were not permitted to carry 'domestic' or 'inter EU passengers as a condition of the UK border force giving their approval for the service to begin (though it still is permissible to board a Amsterdam bound Eurostar from Brussels as they are treated as a standard European high speed service from that point).

 

Brexit will of course have complicated things further....

 

But overall the point still stands, if the UK were still part of the EU and signed up to the Schengen treaty NONE of this nonsense would be needed - the only constraint would be the need to screen luggage on trains due to transit the channel tunnel something which is considerably less onerous than all the immigration guff the UK currently demands.

 

(BTW you are also taking the use of 'French rather to literally - I'm fully aware that under the Schengen treaty it could just as easily be a German, Dutch, Belgian, etc national)

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Today I read a news item about HS2 and whether or not it should be stopped now ,the question of what will happen to the work already started and who would carry out such remedial operations to the scar across England was not discussed..The writers insinuate that  our MP,s are the only people in favour of the project. I am not so sure of this but many of them did not vote for it so this takes the overall statement into dispute.The writers are saying no trains to Euston before 2038 or later  and that any extension beyond Birmingham  should be stopped and the number of trains be halved and be run slower .If this happenned you might as well stop now because the line will become a complete waste of time and money. You do not read anything like this about proposed roads but rail its all a waste of money confirming that rail  is discriminated against.. All of this sniping at HS2 could have an effect on the project and how will the future pan out who knows ,

I’m sure those sniping the cost of HS2 also believe by cutting it, that same money would be spent on the nhs etc….

 

But there is a black hole in the finances of this project, and various contractors and sub contractors are running up and down that accounting tree both sizing it, and retro re-sizing it, but I bet no one knows for sure how big that hole is.. and how its going to be filled.

 

I personally think the whole London end needs a rethink, Euston being a waste of time.  Some how having through running so it stops multiple places across the capital using Crossrail and having trains then run conventional rail to onwards destinations in Kent, Anglia etc… like how other countries do it, rather than being an “everything to London” railway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

like how other countries do it, rather than being an “everything to London” railway.

 

Do they? Our closest parallel is France, where Paris dominates much as London dominates in Britain, possibly more so. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Hmm, station parking in our part of Hampshire can be at least as eye-wateringly expensive, so the train does not have so much of an advantage there. £10 a day is not unusual. The alternative for us is a taxi since buses don't go within a mile of our home.

 

Admittedly, there are stations elsewhere with more reasonable charges - Alnmouth in Northumberland last week was a snip at £1.50 for the day.

 

Yours, Mike.

Many West Midlands stations are free. (Not all, though)

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/02/2023 at 16:22, adb968008 said:

Ooooh, 3 weeks before. They just woke up one morning and decided to rock up to London with a 407 for a jolly ?

 

i knew about it coming several months before it arrived. It had been planned for years.

Velaro-D was designed with London in mind, that would be at least a decades work prior to that… DB ordered them in 2008, based on the tunnel spec… so that was already designed into the spec and intentions known…that was the threat, Eurostar saw off.

 

Given how many spare Eurostars there were, they could have moved forwards with Germany years earlier… half the fleet was idle, or working for GNER or SNCF, instead of a mid life, they scrapped them.

 

 

 

 

 

But a electrically a 373 could get no further than Aachen, in yterms of signalling fit it couldn't even get that far - beyond there it needed major mods to get into Germany under their own power.  as was the case with gettinga 373 into Holland - another technical step too far.  But could 373s have been more widely used in Britain or France?   That would have been a very differemt question but it is rapicly becoming history.    And not particularly relevant toa discussion about HS2

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I’m sure those sniping the cost of HS2 also believe by cutting it, that same money would be spent on the nhs etc….

 

But there is a black hole in the finances of this project, and various contractors and sub contractors are running up and down that accounting tree both sizing it, and retro re-sizing it, but I bet no one knows for sure how big that hole is.. and how its going to be filled.

 

I personally think the whole London end needs a rethink, Euston being a waste of time.  Some how having through running so it stops multiple places across the capital using Crossrail and having trains then run conventional rail to onwards destinations in Kent, Anglia etc… like how other countries do it, rather than being an “everything to London” railway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But there is one essential difference we ought to apply when it comes tio using HS2 finding elsewhere/. Logically as investment HS2 can be quite rightly funded by borrowing.  Thus teh money actually doesn;t exist to divert to anything else although the interest charges could no doubt be used elsewhere.

 

The problem is that many people perceive HS2 as 'spending' using money which could be spent elsewhere and for many of the alternatives uses that simply isn't the case.  Don't build HS2 = don't borrow the money.  

 

Tes I realise the money could be borrowed to build other things instead but that is as far as it goes.  And yes, I fully realise that our idiot politicos in the rush for votes also borrow piles of money to pay for everyday expenses which should rightly be funded solely out of income, i.e. taxation

[adb968008]

Wasnt the real basis of HS2 built on the point that the southern wcml was at capacity, and moving long distance off it would release capacity from it, and the other northerly main line lines ?

But is this still true now ?

 

Given the cut backs to services, and further reductions in May is this the case ?

 

I have to wonder the need on continuing building more 800’s too, though politically is the conservative future of the north east tied to the future of 800 production in Aycliffe ?

Its not just the UK cutting back..

 

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/ns-consults-on-2024-timetable/
 

And its about money

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/pl/ip_21_6308

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Living in a family of dual nationals, I am genuinely interested in this statement.

 

Exiting the UK at St Pancras, and avoiding security, immigration etc and getting on the train directly to Paris or Brussels would be a very interesting development…

 

1. It would be against EU law to discriminate passengers based on which EU passport they hold.

2. it would seem beyond belief that there is a secret doorway in St Pancras for exclusive use of French passengers, that allows exiting the UK without going through immigration.

 

 

Lets use facts… March 3rd…

0604 London to Amsterdam calls at Brussels at 0900 and arrives Amsterdam 1113.

 

Eurostar offers nothing on its site to support a 9am from Brussels to Amsterdam..

 

neither does Thalys…

 

 

neither does DB (which is the definitive European passenger timetable resource)…. Listing most rail operators..

 

 

 

How do I know this, besides the time table… well Ive travelled on it.. 

 

Amsterdam to London is sealed.

 

The platform at Amsterdam is closed / locked, all passengers have to go through immigration at the far end of the platform at Amsterdam.

 

 

in this building you scan your bag, check both Dutch then UK immigration, and have to wait inside until the platform is sealed…

 

then you board…

 

 

 

in this picture you can just make out the physical barrier across platform separateing 15a from 15b whilst Eurostar is in the platform.

 

At Brussels, the platform is sealed, although the doors can be opened, no one is allowed off the train…. Security is stationed every second coach to ask you to reboard should you try…. And Brussels -London passengers are allowed on board.

 

 

 

 

On the Paris point, you could and still can exit walk straight out off the platform at Gare De Nord, I did just recently… however thats a choice of French customs not to check exiting passengers, its not a “right”… they can shut that door and check everyone anytime they like. What you cannot do… is walk from the concourse and directly onto a Eurostar.. you have to go upstairs and through scanning, immigration etc…

here is a picture taken through that glass door.. the platform is sealed before boarding, the passenger waiting room is above the train

 

 

Domestic “EU” travel on Eurostar is no longer possible post Brexit, because you leave the EU and have entered the UK once youve done the passport checks….

 

However what do I know, I’m only a passenger, take Eurostars word for it…

https://www.eurostar.com/be-en/train/amsterdam-brussels

 

 

Sorry to go back to this but adb is correct.  The situation in respect of trains which will pass through the Channel Tunnel is fully spelt out in British and French legislation - it is the law in both of these countries and additionally in France it applies to passengeers froma thit rd etc country passing through ona train which will run through the Channel Tunnel.  Hence for example the oroginal arrangement with the train F from smsterday m was that all passengers detrained at Lill;e, with their luggage, for the relevant security check.

 

All of this applies when you join a train heading towards the  Tunnel.  If you are travelling to Calais Frethun on a Eurostar from Paris you go through exactly the same security checks as someone travelling to London - that is a requirement of French law.  None of this has anything at all to do with Customs checks - the French in my experience tend not to bother over much on Eurostar routes and neither do the Belgians.  UK Customs are the normal Red and Green channels and work as they do elsewhere at other UK points of entry

 

What happens at the destination is largely irrelevant apart from Customs checks, especially if passport checks for the destination are carried our before you board.  Thus it was normal practice at Paris Nord to leave the platform via the unattended exit at the platform end; in Bruxelles the immigration folk in variably wanted to see your passport or ID document.  

 

None of this will be necessary when joining a train on HS2 (unless, possibly, there is some sort of security flap going on which might change things?) - there is no legal security requirement in the Hs2 legislation, a big difference from a train passing through the Tunnel.