HS2

[Northmoor]

Here's a thought: what's the difference in level between Euston's HS2 platforms and the existing station?  The 6 platforms of the new station clearly isn't enough to cope with the full 18tph, but what if some HS2 services were diverted (via additional trackwork) to use two or three of the Southern-most platforms in the existing station?  Now yes, that will mean that there are fewer platforms freed up to provide capacity for WCML services, but they aren't going to be needed from day one.

 

It's not ideal and some re-modelling of passenger flows around the old platforms would be necessary, but if 11 platforms equals 18tph, 6 platforms equals about 6tph, then surely 9 platforms must provide at least 12tph?  But of course if the two stations are at completely different levels then this option becomes extremely difficult.

[black and decker boy]

Given all the cutbacks, how intensive is HS2 actually going to be? Suggestions elsewhere are as low as 11tph and even that requires Euston I think.

 

Chiltern manage a pretty reliable 12tph out of the 6 platforms of Marylebone in the evening peak (with slower accelerating DMUs) and that’s only a double track line.

 

OOC isn’t designed as a terminal station so will throttle the capacity unless redesigned (perhaps a challenge as the box is being dug I think).

 

They could perhaps save money building shorter platforms, the classic compatible services north of Curzon st will be limited to single 200m sets as none of the existing stations can handle 400m sets. If you make everything 200m (or 240m) you can reduce all 3 captive stations and perhaps add the odd extra Curzon St turn.

 

if passenger numbers grow then you can extend later

[lmsforever]

The level of service will I think be of a low level as unless the normal trains north are stopped straight away whos going to spend a small fortune when normal services are available for a journey .

[martin_wynne]

5 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Given all the cutbacks, how intensive is HS2 actually going to be?

 

Remember all those branch lines built for double-track, but only ever laid single-track? ... ...

 

Martin.

[APOLLO]

19 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Not unlike our family's experience travelling to Italy in June.  Apart from not being able to get on the Eurostar at Ashford, only 20 minutes by train from our local station, the journey to Brussels was uneventful. On the ICE from Brussels to Cologne, the air conditioning failed in our carriage, on the hottest day of the year so far, and the train crew came round giving out water bottles.   The train was late into Cologne Hbf, but a glance at the indicator showed our connecting train to Mannheim was also late.  There was a last minute platform change so all the passengers with their luggage had to go down through the underpass and up again. Because of a lineside fire (shades of London Bridge) the train was diverted to call at Bonn Beul instead of Bonn Hbf. During the very scenic section along the Rhein, the conductor came round.  I cranked up my German and pointed out that the train was now rather late and wondered if we would make our connection in Mannheim for Freiburg.  She corrected me: the train was very late. After a brief consultation of the DB equivalent of RealTime Trains she reassured me that the train we needed to catch at Mannheim was even later. And so it proved....  We arrived at Mannheim later than planned but not before the pubs shut.  The next day our train broke down half way through the Ceneri Base Tunnel but that's another story. Our return by TGV from Nice to Paris was punctual if rather sardine-like.

 

Long time since I went to and around Germany by ferry (Harwich) and train. 1986. The ICE lines were under construction, and travel was a joy back then. Trains clean, pleasant and on time etc.

 

I do get the feeling these days that "The powers that be" just don't want us to travel anymore, air, train, car, all modes are difficult, expensive and getting unpleasant. Look at UK railways and the strikes etc - just no one in Gov cares anymore. Given the horrible world events over the last few days / months etc (Israel, Ukraine etc) I cannot see things getting any better either as Governments attention etc will not be on transport.

 

Sunny day but cold here in Wigan right now, off for a walk "down'th owd pit railway" to "clear 'th yed"  !!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by APOLLO
typo

[GoingUnderground]

It gives me absolutrly no pleasure at all to make the suggestion, but perhaps this topic should be retitled Horribly Slow 2? 

 

Also the economics just looks horrible of running trains intended for slower services beyond OOC from Euston to OOC which then partly empty as folks change to the high speed services. 

 

The more I think about it, the more HS2 without a central London/Euston terminus looks like a case of stranded assets even before it's anywhere near becoming operational. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by GoingUnderground

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Remember all those branch lines built for double-track, but only ever laid single-track? ... ...

 

Martin.

True, but had it become desirable, the capacity could have been increased quickly and at relatively low cost. Under-allowance for expansion is far worse, takes much longer to deal with, and works out much more expensive when the need does become apparent.

 

I cite the A303 Ilminster Bypass, which was built as a highly problematic 3-lane road to save (at the time, IIRC) about 15% on the cost of a dual carriageway. It could do with dualling now, but that is unlikely to happen for a couple of decades and will cost many times over what the entire project would have if done at the start.   

 

Probably quite a good parallel for the sorry saga of HS2.....

 

John 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dunsignalling
typo

[figworthy]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:14, jamie92208 said:

A new video of the Kenilworth are.things are really coming on and the final trace of the route is easily visible for much of the way. I presume that the duacarriageway is the A46, obviously the next big bridge work. 

 

Jamir

 

The dual carriage way is the A46.  It looks as though they've started to build the base for the bridge one the far side of it.  I'm guessing that they'll do what seems to be the usual trick of building the bridge, then having a weekend closure as they slide it into place.

 

Interesting to note that the bridge for the Coventry - Leamington Spa line appears to have enough width for two tracks.

 

Adrian

[figworthy]

Heading into London on the Chiltern service yesterday, as we crossed the Colne valley, the viaduct building gantry was clearly visible.  The piers at the London end of the viaduct were rather more of a "work in progress" than those closer to the gantry.

 

Adrian

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Here's a thought: what's the difference in level between Euston's HS2 platforms and the existing station? 

The 6 platforms of the new station clearly isn't enough to cope with the full 18tph, but what if some HS2 services were diverted (via additional trackwork) to use two or three of the Southern-most platforms in the existing station?  ......

......But of course if the two stations are at completely different levels then this option becomes extremely difficult.

 

Different levels, with completely separate track.

 

Originally, the whole of the existing 1960's Euston was to be rebuilt as a larger, totally new station, with all the existing track and platforms, replaced by a new platform layout at a lower level, extending well beyond the current buffers, under the present day concourse, stopping much  closer to Euston Rd.

The concept had the new concourse above the platforms.

That concept was killed at birth, as being vastly too expensive and thought to be very high risk and probably majorly disruptive for years.

 

The first official design, was then restricted to a separate, new HS2 extension to Euston, with 1 or 2 platforms of the existing station, being sacrificed to the new build section.

HS2 tracks, still being built at a lower level to those in the current terminus.

The 1960's station would then get a major make over.

The design and planning of this, was quite advanced, when the Treasury ordered it to be scaled back, a couple of years ago.

A reputed £100 million thrown down the drain, to "save money" !!!!

 

By setting everything back, plus the delays and large cost increases caused  by the pandemic, version 2, with fewer platforms and supposedly some "value engineering", has spiralled out of control due to what is being reported as several factors.

 

Now we're faced with having only 6 platforms, with the likelihood of locking out any possibility of further capacity increases.

AFAIUI, the track will still be separate and the new platforms set at the new lower level, unless there's a complete change of plan.

 

IIRC, one difficulty is the narrow approach and fitting in the three tunnel portals and the associated, complex track layout, within a very narrow strip of available real estate.

The tunnels will be located under the existing NR approach tracks, as well as to their side.

The track already has to rise up quite a bit to the current planned elevation of the HS2 platforms. 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Burton Green Tunnel.

The only "green tunnel" that could be properly justified on Phase 1, in my humble, layman's opinion.

 

This latest video, shows that the've started building down and excavating the cut and cover sections, NW of the old bridge.

The temporary replacement for the bridge and road diversion, is almost complete.

Once open, the old bridge can be demolished, the remaining excavation of the cutting finished and pile lining of the tunnel walls can be carried out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[jjb1970]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

The level of service will I think be of a low level as unless the normal trains north are stopped straight away whos going to spend a small fortune when normal services are available for a journey .

 

Indeed. London-Birmingham isn't a  long journey. If HS services cost ££££££s and there's a  cheaper alternative I can see a lot of people sticking with the old railway. Of course it all depends on ticket pricing but the debt that is coming with all that money being poured into a new line which looks increasingly hard to justify in its truncated form will have to be serviced by someone. 

[jjb1970]

On 12/10/2023 at 06:12, Ron Ron Ron said:

The German railways have been getting into a mess for a good few years now.

DB reliability and punctuality is a running joke with many German's.

 

 

.

 

German trains certainly aren't what they once were, my experiences over the last decade have left me with very positive thoughts about British trains. And my German colleagues are scathing about their trains.

 

I know I already said this but the  EU railway which impresses me is Belgium. The trains are basic and there's nothing immediately wonderful about anything (except  Antwerp station, which is remarkable) but it has an extremely logical,  well designed service pattern which works. Tremendous connectivity, reliable, easy to use and cheap. If I was to nominate a European railway that Britain should study it would be Belgium. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/10/2023 at 23:12, Ron Ron Ron said:

The German railways have been getting into a mess for a good few years now.

DB reliability and punctuality is a running joke with many German's.

 

 

.

Agreed - and in my personal experience and that of family members travelling in/through Germany it is for at least 20 years.  Even in the mid -late '90s when i was visiting Germany regularly for work reasons DB had clearly begin to decline from its previous levels of punctuality  although by then many timings were being tightened up which probably made some impact

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/10/2023 at 08:56, black and decker boy said:

Given all the cutbacks, how intensive is HS2 actually going to be? Suggestions elsewhere are as low as 11tph and even that requires Euston I think.

 

Chiltern manage a pretty reliable 12tph out of the 6 platforms of Marylebone in the evening peak (with slower accelerating DMUs) and that’s only a double track line.

 

OOC isn’t designed as a terminal station so will throttle the capacity unless redesigned (perhaps a challenge as the box is being dug I think).

 

They could perhaps save money building shorter platforms, the classic compatible services north of Curzon st will be limited to single 200m sets as none of the existing stations can handle 400m sets. If you make everything 200m (or 240m) you can reduce all 3 captive stations and perhaps add the odd extra Curzon St turn.

 

if passenger numbers grow then you can extend later

The key with an intensively used route is the time taken to turn round trains at the ned of it - especially if they all finish up at the same station one end go to various different p;aces atthe other end.

 

This in turn tales you back to a lot of basic inputs - starting with the length of the train which not only decides the length of theh platforms but in turn decides - if done correctly - the speed with which a train can unload its passengers and subsequently load the outbound passengers.  But that isn't everything because between the two loads of passengers various things need to be done and they are most efficiently done when there are no passengers on the train or the platform - cleaning, watering, and restocking catering vehicles/trolleys and all of that needs to kept separate from passenger flows.

 

Because St Pancras International didn't follow those basic criteria it can't turnround a Eurostar as quickly as Waterloo could and it never will be able to.  And the quicker you can turn round a train the sooner a platform is ready to be occupied by another train.  And that latter point might help in keeping down the number of platforms needed to match the tph capacity of the line the terminal serves.  (Which St Pancras can't manage as it happens and from its design clearly never would have been able to manage.   Working it out isn't rocket science although experience plays a big part in getting to all the numbers (i.e. minutes each task will take).

 

Ideally - takinga lesson from Waterloo International - a high capacity station needs 3 separate levels.  Basement level for the train servicing and staff access, platform level for the trains, and a first floor/mezzanine level via which passengers exit from the platform and from which they descend to entrain.  It also means that passengers spend only short periods on the platforms so, in turn,  the platforms need nothing in the way of any sort of facility, not even seating ,for the passengers - simply stairs/escalators and lifts - plus cover from the weather.  But it also means that you need plenty of circulating space ett c at that first floor level and you don't fill it with shops and burger bars that obstruct passenger flows - ;likr e teh current Euston was when it first opened.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

German trains certainly aren't what they once were, my experiences over the last decade have left me with very positive thoughts about British trains. And my German colleagues are scathing about their trains.

 

I know I already said this but the  EU railway which impresses me is Belgium. The trains are basic and there's nothing immediately wonderful about anything (except  Antwerp station, which is remarkable) but it has an extremely logical,  well designed service pattern which works. Tremendous connectivity, reliable, easy to use and cheap. If I was to nominate a European railway that Britain should study it would be Belgium. 

I'm a great fan of the way SNCB do things and in the early days of Eurostar I took the Railtrack Access (aka tinetable planning) managers over there partly to experience E'star but also for a session with one of SNB's top timetabling experts.   Hr really got them thinking by starting the session with a very simple question  'How do you decide what and where to time first?'.  

 

It's a far more difficult question  to answer than you might think but it's the key to the way SNCB's timetable works because they selected that timetable core first and than everything else in their timetable is built around it.    Various other railways in Europe have doine something similar  such as SBB's Timetable 2000 (which admittedly was a bit watered done in the end, and din't start in 2000 either).  We've never got too it in Britain although the suggested NE/SW core idea was based on a similar premise until all the Regions shot it down because it would affect routes out of London 'that they knew best'.

 

SNCB are also extremely good are major engineering work with minimum disruption and their programme for taking the high speed line from the French border into Brussels remains to me one of the best examples of how to build a new railway in the modst of a current with minimal impact on existing services - and it included tunnelling underneath a canal and resiting a number of stations on quadruple track as they went plus rearranging and creating completely new lines in the southern approaches to Brussel Mid- Zuid.  They did a similarly spectacular job witn the addition of the lower level platformas and tunnel under the harbour for the new link to Holland at Antwerp.

[Mike_Walker]

I've been reading the article in the October issue of The Railway Magazine recalling the building of the Selby Cutoff.  It was delivered under budget and early and is in complete contrast to how they've gone about building HS2.  If the former had been applied to the latter we wouldn't be in this mess.  Once again BR was trusted to know what it was doing and largely left to get on with it  by the politicians and deliver.  One interesting point: they were told to forget about electrification but ignored the instruction and future-proofed the project anyway thereby saving a fortune less than 10 years later when the ECML was wired.

 

Well worth grabbing a copy if you're not a regular reader.

[melmerby]

19 hours ago, figworthy said:

Interesting to note that the bridge for the Coventry - Leamington Spa line appears to have enough width for two tracks.

Seems a sensible Idea, I assume there is a plan to dual the Coventry end, which has only ever been single track ftom Gibbet Hill Junction to the former Kenilworth Junction.

[Mike_Walker]

Likewise the new bridge and formation for the Princes Risborough - Aylesbury branch is designed for not only double track but also 90mph operation on what was only a 45mph line that's never likely to need higher speeds or double track.  More wasted money but, hey, the magic tree will provide...

[Ron Ron Ron]

Earlier this week, the first sections of the first of two TBM's to be used to bore the Northolt East tunnels, were lowered into the ventilation and access shaft, adjacent to the Victoria Rd. crossover box (just to the west of OOC).

 

The Northolt East tunnels will be driven westbound from Victoria Rd., to Greenford, where they'll meet up with the Northolt West tunnels, that are currently being bored from West Ruislip to Greenford.

 

I believe this is the HS2 Down line tunnel, which routes via the ventilation and access shaft, after leaving the Victoria Rd. crossover box, heading westbound.

At the start of the video below, you can see the already established tunnel between the ventilation shaft and the crossover box...and the cross linking tunnel that will lead to the Up line tunnel.

The rest of the TBM modules, will be lowered in via the crossover box and brought through the existing tunnel, to mate up with the cutting head and shield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Bernard Lamb]

16 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

German trains certainly aren't what they once were, my experiences over the last decade have left me with very positive thoughts about British trains. And my German colleagues are scathing about their trains.

 

I know I already said this but the  EU railway which impresses me is Belgium. The trains are basic and there's nothing immediately wonderful about anything (except  Antwerp station, which is remarkable) but it has an extremely logical,  well designed service pattern which works. Tremendous connectivity, reliable, easy to use and cheap. If I was to nominate a European railway that Britain should study it would be Belgium. 

My wife has to go to Cologne next month. She asked me to look at train travel. The first problem was finding a web site that could cope with the different operators. It seemed better to book the different legs with different companies to get the best deal. The main problem was to get the cheapest tickets for each leg that would connect. I found a reasonable deal but it was complicated to book, so I gave up. What chance would a punter have who had much less knowledge of the railway system. She had a travel voucher for £100 from a raffle, so she got in contact with the travel company. They came up with a deal that was very close to what I had found, but pointed out that due to the unreliability of German trains the connections would be dodgy. She is going to fly and her voucher will almost cover the cost. far less than the train with much better back up if there are any problems.

Bernard

[Ron Ron Ron]

The totally unnecessary and mega expensive Copthall tunnel, located at the London end of the Colne Valley viaduct, north of Uxbridge.

 

The new road bridge, carrying a new diversion of Harvil Road, is well advanced and it looks like they're now starting to bury the first section of this "green tunnel".

 

I've mentioned before, that this section of line was originally to be in a cutting, but a late change of plan and the chance to blast away g@d knows how many tens of £££ millions, if not hundreds of £££ millions, on a pointless tunnel, was obviously too good to miss.

Note; there are no settlements within at least a km of this section and the nearest ones are closer to the open air sections of line to the east and west of the bit being put in the tunnel.

 

Impressive engineering though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Note; there are no settlements within at least a km of this section and the nearest ones are closer to the open air sections of line to the east and west of the bit being put in the tunnel.

But it might've disturbed the Great Crested Newts, if any ever ended up near it.😄

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

But it might've disturbed the Great Crested Newts, if any ever ended up near it.😄

 

Seriously though, I don't recall any environmental reasons being given for the change of plan (to put the line in a "green tunnel"), other than change of mind to  keep the profile of the hillside the railway was cutting through. 

 

 

.

[Mark Saunders]

12 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Seriously though, I don't recall any environmental reasons being given for the change of plan (to put the line in a "green tunnel"), other than change of mind to  keep the profile of the hillside the railway was cutting through. 

 

 

.

Nothing new with cuttings and tunnels other than keeping the landed gentry, now NIMBY's so they don't have to look at the trains!