HS2

[jamie92208]

This showing what's been achieved in 2023 has just been posted.  A lot of positive results. 

Jamie 

[The Stationmaster]

59 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

This goes back a long way. In fact, to the time that apprenticeships were reduced from seven years to three. At the end of their time, apprentices had a habit of leaving their employers to find better-paid jobs, leaving the employers unable to recoup the cost of instruction. 

Not entirely accurate as in many case apprentices were required to leave as a Journeyman following completion of their apprenticeship before returning to their original employer.  A formet boss of mine was a Swindon trained apprentice who left at the end of his apprenticeship and did his Journeyman period as an electrician with the Falkland Islands Survey.  That led to him, and his colleagues working for the FIS in Antarctica being made redundant  but happily then being engaged by the British Antarctic Survey so they didn't have to trek to teh south pole looking for a labour Exchang.

 When his contract with BAS ended he returned to BR

 

When my father finished his apprenticeship in 1936/7 he had to eleave and then moved south to live with his uncle working as a carpenter on the estate where his uncle was the gamekeeper.   So not all apprentices were dumped - although that did happen in many cases to juveniles who were discharged when they reached heh age where they would be paid an adult wage - the GWR always did that.  On the other handa chap I know who joined the SR as alad wasn't discharged when he reacghed adult rate (although pressures of wartime might have affected that?).

 

My daughter is currently a Student Nurse ad the trust she works for are paying for her OU degree course and one of the conditions is that she will have to apply for a job with the trust when she qualifies

[Pete the Elaner]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51512831
China's state railway company said it could build the line in just five years and at a much lower cost

And herein is the achilles heel of British construction.

 

That article was 2020, it would be open next year… and fixed price.

 

The west is trying to compete with the east in business, politics and global trade, with its feet and arms self-tied… and we wonder why we are losing.

 

We were winning in Victorian times, using the same methods our global rivals now use against us.

 

Did these £11mn wagons ever enter service ?

https://www.railvolution.net/news/fate-of-chinese-built-wagons-for-lu-still-unclear

 

 

 

Sorry to bring politics into it, but this is the price of democracy which China does not need to deal with.

If the Chinese government wanted a railway, it would get built. There would be no consultation, no cut & cover tunnels to replace any of the landscape & no consideration for those living along the chosen route, Any houses along the route would be forced purchased at a non-negotiable cost set by the government (the cheapest they could justify). That would lower the cost somewhat.

[jjb1970]

8 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Sorry to bring politics into it, but this is the price of democracy which China does not need to deal with.

If the Chinese government wanted a railway, it would get built. There would be no consultation, no cut & cover tunnels to replace any of the landscape & no consideration for those living along the chosen route, Any houses along the route would be forced purchased at a non-negotiable cost set by the government (the cheapest they could justify). That would lower the cost somewhat.

 

If we make projects so expensive that price becomes excessive from so much tunnelling then that's a failure on our part. HS1 and most other European lines aren't in tunnels to anything like the extent of HS2 and people seem OK about them. Similarly, people do have property rights in China and stand on them. The usual response is to build around them which can lead to some comical arrangements  (though probably not funny for the owners if they refuse to sell). China has expertise and resource we might dream of for major infrastructure projects,  that's the real difference. 

[GordonC]

29 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Sorry to bring politics into it, but this is the price of democracy which China does not need to deal with.

If the Chinese government wanted a railway, it would get built. There would be no consultation, no cut & cover tunnels to replace any of the landscape & no consideration for those living along the chosen route, Any houses along the route would be forced purchased at a non-negotiable cost set by the government (the cheapest they could justify). That would lower the cost somewhat.

 

It seems like in too many cases in this country the rights of the individual are more important than the benefits to wider society. Of course there should be fair treatment, but less lawyers getting made wealthy by continual arguing and appealing every little thing.

[Arun Sharma]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

It seems like in too many cases in this country the rights of the individual are more important than the benefits to wider society. Of course there should be fair treatment, but less lawyers getting made wealthy by continual arguing and appealing every little thing.

You could reasonably argue that since any railway line designed from new for public passenger and/or freight use has been agreed by an enabling Act of Parliament, the concept that it is for the greater good at the unfortunate and inevitable expense of a minority has already been agreed. Thus the requirement for public enquiries relating to route and fine detail is redundant. After all, you can't make omlettes without breaking eggs. Since the Govt [i.e., the taxpayer] is paying for it, it has to be carried out in the most efficient, effective, economical manner practicable otherwise the taxpayer is being fleeced on behalf of a voiciferous minority.

[Grovenor]

Well said Artun, but fleecing the taxpayer for the benefit of a tiny minority seems to be the way our current government works.

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

This goes back a long way. In fact, to the time that apprenticeships were reduced from seven years to three. At the end of their time, apprentices had a habit of leaving their employers to find better-paid jobs, leaving the employers unable to recoup the cost of instruction. 

A former public sector employer of mine was privatised in 2002.  When wages were constrained by MoD pay scales, may IT specialists would get trained in particular software or operating systems, paid for by the project they were working on (but for which that software might not actually have been appropriate), then left soon afterwards for the private sector and a 100-200% pay rise.

 

Once we were in private hands, new rules were introduced that meant that anyone leaving the company had to repay the cost of any training paid for by the employer in the previous three years, in a declining percentage.  I don't know how this was imposed and enforced and don't know of anyone affected by it, but that employment condition was passed by the unions which were still recognised at that time, so it obviously wasn't considered overly harsh on staff.  I'm not sure why most companies don't do similar.

[adb968008]

47 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

A former public sector employer of mine was privatised in 2002.  When wages were constrained by MoD pay scales, may IT specialists would get trained in particular software or operating systems, paid for by the project they were working on (but for which that software might not actually have been appropriate), then left soon afterwards for the private sector and a 100-200% pay rise.

 

Once we were in private hands, new rules were introduced that meant that anyone leaving the company had to repay the cost of any training paid for by the employer in the previous three years, in a declining percentage.  I don't know how this was imposed and enforced and don't know of anyone affected by it, but that employment condition was passed by the unions which were still recognised at that time, so it obviously wasn't considered overly harsh on staff.  I'm not sure why most companies don't do similar.

Because it works in the inverse..

 

hiring an IT grad with no experience requires training, often not used to work ethic and needs to learn that homework quality doesnt stand the real world test.

 

so they pay them peanuts and hire 5 kids for the price of 1 experienced adult, safe in expectation 4 out of 5 will quit or be fired in the first year. The 5th  may be headhunted if they are any good so you need to pay them more, unless they have not learned there true value, in which case exploit them and give them promotions, thats the British way.

 

if you want them to pay back training, start by giving them a real wage, it might buy loyalty too and the need for less hires…, but sadly cheap short term always wins… hence US rather than UK companies draw better IT recruits. (i did this with one US company, they got me a visa for the US, provided training with a 3 year commit and the pay packet that many wouldn't like to hear and travelled globally. I worked there 14 years.. almost unheard of in the IT industry, so i’m proof it works, but I don't see any company in the UK ever doing this.

In the IT private sector unionisation is quite rare, so is loyalty… but finding good companies is a hard thing to find too, especially since Brexit/Covid… the IT sector has become a right quagmire in the UK, the employee attrition rates in IT are shocking, 33% p.a. in one company I worked for.. Another company Ive seen has a policy of firing the bottom performers every quarter, and has them on one week fte contracts.

 

However flip side, salary levels for experienced IT workers has jumped 40% since Covid, unless they are up north, they still get less, but more, and work from home, so for as long as you can put up with it, and if your any good, you’ll do quite well..and when your done, finding another spot is quite easy for the right people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

........and returning back on topic...........

 

 

A view looking backwards, flying westwards over the Copthall Tunnel and the remaining third of the Colne Valley Viaduct, left to do..

 

At the start of the video, you can just about see the West Ruislip portal site, in the distance.

The video ends after reaching the Launching Girder, which has almost reached the crossing point over the Grand Union Canal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

she will have to apply for a job with the trust when she qualifies

Is she guaranteed to get one?

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

It seems like in too many cases in this country the rights of the individual are more important than the benefits to wider society. Of course there should be fair treatment, but less lawyers getting made wealthy by continual arguing and appealing every little thing.

Britain by nature is a conservative (little "c") nation, probably because we are isolated from a large land mass. (fortress Britain)

As a result we do not like change and will create a fuss if somebody tries to do something we don't like, especially if it smacks of something those "nasty foreigners" across the sea would do.

The same reason we have such poor foreign language skills (Everybody else should learn English)☹️

[jjb1970]

I think the reason we're so bad at foreign language skills is laziness brought about by the fact that English is the world's de-facto second language and language of international commerce and relations. It's the same problem in most English speaking countries.  Even in Singapore a lot of ethnic Chinese only speak English. I worked for a Danish company whose global language (including in their Copenhagen HQ) was English.  Despite latent claims of French being the world's diplomatic language, English is the most common of the six UN languages and many working groups and organs below plenary level work in English.

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is she guaranteed to get one?

Of course not. 

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think the reason we're so bad at foreign language skills is laziness brought about by the fact that English is the world's de-facto second language and language of international commerce and relations. It's the same problem in most English speaking countries.  Even in Singapore a lot of ethnic Chinese only speak English. I worked for a Danish company whose global language (including in their Copenhagen HQ) was English.  Despite latent claims of French being the world's diplomatic language, English is the most common of the six UN languages and many working groups and organs below plenary level work in English.

I've never really learnt any other language fluently in many years or working abroad... except French, which I have learnt at school anyway.

 

In many companies (BP, for example) the door to language training is firmly closed in the faces of native English speakers.

 

In most European countries of my experience there is no language training for English speakers, and (when we were members) English was not accepted as a "European" language

 

The biggest barrier is mass media. The British aren't exposed to foreign language mass media on any large scale. Try learning two languages from primary school level, then living in a country where you hear those languages on the radio or TV most days. 

[jjb1970]

I was given Portuguese language training when I was sent to Brazil, and Bahasa Indonesian when I was sent there. The only foreign language I ever felt comfortable with was spoken Japanese when I spent a lot of time out there. 

 

In some industries people have no choice, if they want to enter it people have to learn English. One problem when I was at school was the only foreign language taught was French, and I have had virtually no call to speak French. Spanish would have been far more useful, or German. And in my own particular circumstances Mandarin, Japanese and Korean would have been much more useful but I would probably have had better look asking for Klingon lessons in my days at school.

[corneliuslundie]

I spent six years in Kosovo and tried to learn the local version of Albanian, but everyone wanted to speak to me in English. I was there to teach English so not surprising.

But German is now becoming much more popular as a second language in both Kosovo and Albania.

But we knew a South Korean family and their small children were perfectly competent in their own language, English and Albanian. And when I was doing my TEFL course I had a tame student to work with. Her son had come to England at the age of five and within not much more than a year he had gone from knowing no English to being top of his class at school (in English) for most subjects. One problem in the UK is that we start teaching foreign languages far too late. 

But this is not much to do with HS2 where I assume that English will be understood (but probably not Welsh of Gaelic).

Jonathan

[C126]

Sorry to drag this way off topic, to the subject of the English teaching and learning (or not) foreign languages, but I found trying to retain my language lessons very difficult when not using it every day.  Quite apart from the difficulty some find of the language learning itself - do not get me started on the two years of forced school Latin - it is hard to retain what little aptitude one has unless one devotes one's entire existence to this single goal.  And I would rather spend time on other interests as well.  Working with those whose entire existence is their foreign language/culture (even after retirement they return!), I do not think it would be healthy.

 

Edited January 5 by C126
Sp.

[APOLLO]

Be careful what you wish for with Chinese construction.

 

https://eng.yidaiyilu.gov.cn/p/05KKOLA6.html

 

https://eng.yidaiyilu.gov.cn/p/073RC6NF.html

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2711978/pink-line-conductor-rail-collapses-in-nonthaburi

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2712219/monorail-mishap-spurs-govt-warning

 

Google Tofu Dreg Railways China for some eye openers. All show over there.

 

HS2 may well be very expensive, but as far as I can tell the engineering is cutting edge and top quality.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

Britain by nature is a conservative (little "c") nation, probably because we are isolated from a large land mass. (fortress Britain)

As a result we do not like change and will create a fuss if somebody tries to do something we don't like, especially if it smacks of something those "nasty foreigners" across the sea would do.

The same reason we have such poor foreign language skills (Everybody else should learn English)☹️

You want to try Italy then.

Far more conservative than Britain and not that many people speak foreign languages.

I have family there.

My sister has lived there for 40+ years and says she could count on one hand, the number of people she’s known over all that time, who could speak English.

Her neighbours spoke German, as they had lived and worked in Switzerland for 30 years or so, before retiring back home.

My nephew’s speak English, because of their Mum, but not many of their “young” friends speak any foreign languages…and they travel a lot.

 

There is far more cultural conservatism across most of mainland Europe than our relatively, very socially liberal UK.

This “fortress Britain” trope, is a bit weak.

 

 

.

Edited January 5 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Can we get back on subject please?

 

Discussions on languages, industrial training and other stuff, should really be in the Wheeltappers section.

 

 

.

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

My daughter is currently a Student Nurse ad the trust she works for are paying for her OU degree course and one of the conditions is that she will have to apply for a job with the trust when she qualifies

That seems rather a pointless requirement, even though it's perfectly reasonable for an employer to expect somebody who's paid for training to get some work out of them, but you really can't force that.  If she's offered a job, presumably she could say no thanks and accept a better paid job elsewhere if she finds one.  On the other hand if she applies, presumably they don't have to offer her a job if they don't want to for whatever reason, so it also doesn't give her the apparent job security that gives her good reason to invest her time in studying this course.

 

I remember a period we had difficulty recruiting.  We would offer somebody a job, he'd accept, we'd take up references etc but come the start date "So where's this new boy then?"  Ring him and find he's accepted some other offer from a competitor.

[62613]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I've never really learnt any other language fluently in many years or working abroad... except French, which I have learnt at school anyway.

 

In many companies (BP, for example) the door to language training is firmly closed in the faces of native English speakers.

 

In most European countries of my experience there is no language training for English speakers, and (when we were members) English was not accepted as a "European" language

 

The biggest barrier is mass media. The British aren't exposed to foreign language mass media on any large scale. Try learning two languages from primary school level, then living in a country where you hear those languages on the radio or TV most days. 

Guy I know found a job in Sweden; he was given six months training learning Swedish

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

Guy I know found a job in Sweden; he was given six months training learning Swedish

Scandinavia can be like that; Norway is similar. Germany, France or the Netherlands, on the other hand....

 

Italy is similar to UK in that it is a peninsula and exposure to foreign language media, comparable. The easy polyglot capacity of the Northern Europeans is driven by their small size, contiguous borders and constant exposure to media in various languages 

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

HS2 may well be very expensive, but as far as I can tell the engineering is cutting edge and top quality.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

It ought to be. The Germans are making far more from it than we ever will.