Panic buying

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

I am sorry but I just do not buy this. For far too long employers have relied on cheap foreign labour which has kept wages artificially down and boosted company profits. In addition especially with HGV drivers working conditions have got worse which has meant that there has been a mass exodus of qualified drivers. The same has happened in many other industries (retail and farming to name a few). Then we have the GIG economy with multinationals moving from a full time employed workforce to part time/zero hours / self employed, granted this gives the company greater flexibility but at the cost of stable full time income.

 

The fault does not lie with either the government, Brexit or covid 19. But a system where companies have failed to both treat employees fairly and invest in their own business. This is not a new problem but one which has been growing for the past 10 years.

 

I worked in the food industry and for the last 10 years food prices have been kept well below inflation, this has been achieved by cutting costs everywhere the companies can. Certainly the staff pay and benefits are far lower/worse now than they were 10 years ago, full time jobs have reduced or even disappeared long ago for a much higher number of lower paid part time staff, many of whom came from eastern Europe, plus many more employees working far more unsocial hours. This applies to employees in retail, drivers and warehouse staff.  Its all about keeping retail prices low whilst maintaining profit margins 

 

This is a situation manufactured by the oil companies, who it is reported are ramping up prices for profit, whipped up by a gullible media and greedy consumers, now trying to blame the government for their past failings plus to hide the fact its their greed which has caused this issue. The only saving grace is that soon everyone will have full tanks of petrol in their cars and will have their greed satisfied

 

The facts are

1 There is no shortage of petrol (its in the wrong place)

2 There are enough drivers to deliver petrol for normal day to day use

3 We need more HGV drivers and their working conditions need improving

4 Businesses need to invest more in their workforce

 

 

Couldn't agree more. It's probably no surprise that those businesses who have brought us to this mess are calling for support for what got us to this point. To be fair to (some) of them they've probably had little choice - the nature of competition means it can be a race to the bottom that a business needs to take part in if it's to survive, a vicious circle. More worrying are the ordinary people who support it, particularly the ones subject to suppressed wages and uncertain hours themselves. A bit of a trap there too, because they need the cheap up front that it's created, but it's also created the situation where they need it to be cheap because they're the ones suffering from suppressed wages (although going off-topic high housing costs are the biggest problem there).

Edited September 28, 2021 by Reorte

[Ron Ron Ron]

100% Hayfield.

 

We will see similar problems grow, with the lack of skills and a continuing decline in the number of people willing to do the "dirty" or "undesirable work".

Chickens coming home to roost and all that.

 

 

.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

One road tanker could not fill the station's tanks to 100%, or anywhere close. Those underground bunkers can be very big indeed.

We had the farm’s tank filled last week (no issues with supply either) it takes 10K litres, the driver had two more calls to make, but for sure if ASDA/Sainsbury/Tesco had underground tanks only three times the size of our over ground tank it would be pathetic.

 

I’ve no idea how big a petrol stations tank could be but I suspect (hope) a lot bigger.

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, MartynJPearson said:

 

Or maybe they realise that it would be completely impractical. How would it work?

It could work quite easily - on all but the most basic filling stations pumps have to be authorised by reference to ANPR - a simple software update is all that would be required.

[F-UnitMad]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I am sorry but I just do not buy this. For far too long employers have relied on cheap foreign labour which has kept wages artificially down

All good except for this bit, at least regarding HGV drivers. Any driver employed in this Country has to be paid UK rates. The difference with Eastern European drivers was that their families were back home (where they sent their money) so they had no problem working all the hours the company could throw at them (EU Working Time Directive notwithstanding). Any UK driver wanting a 'normal' life where they actually see their family is stuffed.

The bigger issue with cheap transport was the change in regulations that let foreign trucks (& their low-paid drivers) do domestic haulage in between getting freight across the channel. There was a time when our roads were swamped by Willi Betz trucks (other foreign hauliers are available) but not now (I think Willi Betz was bought out/taken over anyway) - it's like all those drivers caught at Manston last Xmas thought "sod coming to the UK again!".

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That's Normal for Norfolk.

And for Suffolk the question is whether you can get red diesel for your tractor.

You can in Norfolk 

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Couldn't agree more. It's probably no surprise that those businesses who have brought us to this mess are calling for support for what got us to this point. To be fair to (some) of them they've probably had little choice - the nature of competition means it can be a race to the bottom that a business needs to take part in if it's to survive, a vicious circle. More worrying are the ordinary people who support it, particularly the ones subject to suppressed wages and uncertain hours themselves. A bit of a trap there too, because they need the cheap up front that it's created, but it's also created the situation where they need it to be cheap because they're the ones suffering from suppressed wages (although going off-topic high housing costs are the biggest problem there).

 

I grew up in a road where most families rented their properties, one exception was what we would now call a supervisor in the local grocery store, he earnt enough to buy his own property

 

Fast forward my first 10 years of employment were in retail, when I got married I was an assistant manager in a mid size shop in Brent Cross. Like many I struggled to get a mortgage and bought about the cheapest flat on the market. Fast forward 30+ years I doubt many on my old grade in retail could earn enough to buy the cheapest flat. The race downwards in pay caused by mass availability of cheap labour has distorted the wage structure in many industries, this has nothing to do with recent changes but decisions made 50 years ago 

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, gismorail said:

The first picture could be a plant contractor making sure he has fuel for his work the second is just dangerous 

If he is a plant operator he is not very good at bean counting - he would be running his plant on red diesel, not white & his jerry cans would not be that prestine.

 

Stand by for the great jerry can shortage.

[Jol Wilkinson]

15 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

I am sorry but I just do not buy this. For far too long employers have relied on cheap foreign labour which has kept wages artificially down and boosted company profits. In addition especially with HGV drivers working conditions have got worse which has meant that there has been a mass exodus of qualified drivers. The same has happened in many other industries (retail and farming to name a few). Then we have the GIG economy with multinationals moving from a full time employed workforce to part time/zero hours / self employed, granted this gives the company greater flexibility but at the cost of stable full time income.

 

The fault does not lie with either the government, Brexit or covid 19. But a system where companies have failed to both treat employees fairly and invest in their own business. This is not a new problem but one which has been growing for the past 10 years.

 

I worked in the food industry and for the last 10 years food prices have been kept well below inflation, this has been achieved by cutting costs everywhere the companies can. Certainly the staff pay and benefits are far lower/worse now than they were 10 years ago, full time jobs have reduced or even disappeared long ago for a much higher number of lower paid part time staff, many of whom came from eastern Europe, plus many more employees working far more unsocial hours. This applies to employees in retail, drivers and warehouse staff.  Its all about keeping retail prices low whilst maintaining profit margins 

 

This is a situation manufactured by the oil companies, who it is reported are ramping up prices for profit, whipped up by a gullible media and greedy consumers, now trying to blame the government for their past failings plus to hide the fact its their greed which has caused this issue. The only saving grace is that soon everyone will have full tanks of petrol in their cars and will have their greed satisfied

 

The facts are

1 There is no shortage of petrol (its in the wrong place)

2 There are enough drivers to deliver petrol for normal day to day use

3 We need more HGV drivers and their working conditions need improving

4 Businesses need to invest more in their workforce

 

 

John,

 

while I very largely agree with what you say, I consider government has played a major role in us ending up where we are today.

 

If you consider, as I do, that government is responsible for managing the economy for the benefit of the nation. then they should put in place the legislation that ensures that the things that are needed for the economy to work effectively are in place. That largely hasn't happened so the open market has been allowed to set the parameters for prices, pay and conditions and the result is what we see now. 

 

"Greed" is a major driver for many consumers, so  demand for lower prices, ready availability of new products, etc. has moved productive jobs out of the UK and imported cheap labour where UK residents won't/can't do the work, etc. People shouldn't blame the suppliers for giving them what they want and then complain when it goes wrong because of a set of circumstances that they can't control.

 

Jol

[hayfield]

9 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

John,

 

while I very largely agree with what you say, I consider government has played a major role in us ending up where we are today.

 

If you consider, as I do, that government is responsible for managing the economy for the benefit of the nation. then they should put in place the legislation that ensures that the things that are needed for the economy to work effectively are in place. That largely hasn't happened so the open market has been allowed to set the parameters for prices, pay and conditions and the result is what we see now. 

 

"Greed" is a major driver for many consumers, so  demand for lower prices, ready availability of new products, etc. has moved productive jobs out of the UK and imported cheap labour where UK residents won't/can't do the work, etc. People shouldn't blame the suppliers for giving them what they want and then complain when it goes wrong because of a set of circumstances that they can't control.

 

Jol

 

Jol

 

All governments do the same whatever brand, look at what happened to the banks when the Bank of England was replaced with LAUTRO or what ever it was called, basically a bunch of civil servants which the banks and investment companies rang rings around, then the big bang

 

Governments do not (and should not) tell businesses how to run their businesses, take the latest situation about oil delivery drivers, over years they have been overseeing a reducing workforce and done nothing,

 

One wholesale company has added a fleet of large vans to supplement their lack of HGV drivers. Its either the transport managers or their bosses who have let this occur, people have left the industry because of falling pay and poor working conditions, the sticking plasters have been cheap imported labour. The main culprits in this case has been the media whipping up a frenzy

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They were indeed issued but not actually used, and I still have mine.  My father was Regional Petroleum Officer for the South West, based in a temporary office overlooking the Clifton Suspension Bridge. 

 

 

I definitely used mine back then, but then I was in a “reserved occupation” (as was still stamped on the book) and had to produce them to fill my tank, not sure the general public had to use them, they may have just been limited to a few gallons (or even one!) each?

Edited September 28, 2021 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

Amusing, just had an email from Mole Valley to “order your heating oil now” as they expect there could be delays filling orders on time……here we go again, wait until the Daily Wail gets hold of this one!

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Jol

 

All governments do the same whatever brand, look at what happened to the banks when the Bank of England was replaced with LAUTRO or what ever it was called, basically a bunch of civil servants which the banks and investment companies rang rings around, then the big bang

 

Governments do not (and should not) tell businesses how to run their businesses, take the latest situation about oil delivery drivers, over years they have been overseeing a reducing workforce and done nothing,

 

One wholesale company has added a fleet of large vans to supplement their lack of HGV drivers. Its either the transport managers or their bosses who have let this occur, people have left the industry because of falling pay and poor working conditions, the sticking plasters have been cheap imported labour. The main culprits in this case has been the media whipping up a frenzy

John,

 

government (note the small g), should provide the rules in which businesses operate. They do it for you and me with legislation that is supposed to make us behave responsibly. Letting businesses operate unhindered is a recipe for disaster, unless they are totally motivated to work for the benefit of their customers and society as a whole, rather than their owners or shareholders.

 

Jol

[boxbrownie]

50 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

It could work quite easily - on all but the most basic filling stations pumps have to be authorised by reference to ANPR - a simple software update is all that would be required.

Do they? I thought most stations have CCTV but for the errant fill and scarper brigade, not so that each pump would authorise dispensing to a particular vehicle.  

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

 

The woman on Re6/6 photos apparently bought water bottles, emptied them into the bin and then filled them up. With a bit of luck the water left in the bottles may b*gger up her cars fuel system when she uses it.

Probably tip it down the drain when the panic is over*, like all those food hoarders that bought perishable food with no where to store it.

Couple of weeks later they dumped it.

 

*She might actually find the plastic dissolving in the petrol.

[SamThomas]

7 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Do they? I thought most stations have CCTV but for the errant fill and scarper brigade, not so that each pump would authorise dispensing to a particular vehicle.  

Most of the "up to date" filling stations need the pump to be activated after the staff check the ANPR, so there is still a little manual input.

 

I expect that there will be a certain element that will think it does not apply to them, but it would certainly help to quell the queues, at least to come extent.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Probably tip it down the drain when the panic is over*, like all those food hoarders that bought perishable food with no where to store it.

Couple of weeks later they dumped it.

 

Never mind perishable. People were chucking tins away!

[hayfield]

32 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

John,

 

government (note the small g), should provide the rules in which businesses operate. They do it for you and me with legislation that is supposed to make us behave responsibly. Letting businesses operate unhindered is a recipe for disaster, unless they are totally motivated to work for the benefit of their customers and society as a whole, rather than their owners or shareholders.

 

Jol

 

Jol

 

I accept your views and agree that this is what should happen

 

Business' are there for the benefits of their owners/share holders, anything other leads to either a left, middle or right wing dictatorial state. But they must not take advantage of their customers

 

We need less red tape for all businesses to flourish, but if/when they step over the line the penalty must be larger than the gain.

 

The same should be for governmental/public bodies. If a public service fouls up, those responsible should suffer the consequences of their actions, just fining the public body is insane as you are fining everybody. Public or private should be treated the same.

[hayfield]

31 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Most of the "up to date" filling stations need the pump to be activated after the staff check the ANPR, so there is still a little manual input.

 

I expect that there will be a certain element that will think it does not apply to them, but it would certainly help to quell the queues, at least to come extent.

 

It would not work, on Friday we were in Cornwall, on Saturday we were coming back to Essex via Kent (dropping off in-laws. I had a full tanks worth on Friday and half a tank top up on Saturday

 

My neighbour is going on holiday to Wales on Saturday, if he gives this as a reason for a full tanks worth you can guess the reply

[alastairq]

44 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Letting businesses operate unhindered is a recipe for disaster, unless they are totally motivated to work for the benefit of their customers and society as a whole, rather than their owners or shareholders.

 WW2 wouldn't have had the outcome it did, if the US [& the UK to a lesser extent] had 'restricted' business operation.

 

A lot of businesses made  a decent profit out of meeting demands....

 

The 'opposition', on the other hand, exercised a strong degree of control over business.....

[spamcan61]

18 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 WW2 wouldn't have had the outcome it did, if the US [& the UK to a lesser extent] had 'restricted' business operation.

 

A lot of businesses made  a decent profit out of meeting demands....

 

The 'opposition', on the other hand, exercised a strong degree of control over business.....

True, but I don't fancy living in a society run under wartime conditions.

[hayfield]

37 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

True, but I don't fancy living in a society run under wartime conditions.

 

Its a good job that the US industry got into full swing. There has been a series about the second world war factories quite eye opening and showed how the Axis armies were worn down by shear volume.

 

My mum played her part in working on the production line building Mosquitoes. My memory is not that good I think she was in the team covering the wings, and Park Street rings a bell but it may have been at Hatfield. She met my dad around that time and his parents lived in Watford, Park Street is a short rail journey from Watford 

[melmerby]

Has panic buying started in the supermarkets again? I know there have been one or two low stock or empty shelves but not massive shortages.

Our regular delivery has been reasonably complete each week with just one or two items missing, so not too bad.

Just checked my Asda order for tomorrow and there is a whole string of items OOS including the regular orders of bread (two types) and milk.

[alastairq]

One possibly 'good' outcome from all this fuel business is, McDonalds comes out squeaky clean.....

seeing as they run all their lorries on re-cycled chip & burger fat....?

 

Good ol' Maccydees...

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Has panic buying started in the supermarkets again?  ……….

 

Don’t worry, the MSM will start the scare mongering about supermarket stocks in due course.

Particularly focussing on Christmas.

They already started fear mongering about Christmas and Turkeys, last week.

 

.