Covid-19 - The silver lining (Positives!)

[Nearholmer]

I’m not the slightest bit religious, but I like the language of KJV and, like all religious books, it contains a great deal of wisdom among the religion, so how about this?

 

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not the slightest bit religious, but I like the language of KJV and, like all religious books, it contains a great deal of wisdom among the religion, so how about this?

 

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

I regularly use that, but in modern form, as in "First take the plank out of your own eye, Dudley!"

 

Sherry is a church-goer, and I'm hoping she can find something online today to meet her needs. 

[jjb1970]

Pollution has dropped massively and air quality is better. That's a silver lining. 

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not the slightest bit religious, but I like the language of KJV and, like all religious books, it contains a great deal of wisdom among the religion, so how about this?

 

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

 

I think it depends on how you define and understand religion. Religion is a bit like money, it seems so obvious that few ask what it is but if you do ask questions then it becomes a rather slippery concept. Most view in the traditional denotative context, but if you consider the alternative functional basis then concepts such as communism, nationalism and even environmentalism can be be presented as religious beliefs.  I suppose strictly speaking the correct definition would be the original Latin from which the modern word is derived but as with many things the meaning of words change over time. I think almost all of us have religious beliefs depending on how it is defined.

Edited April 10, 2020 by jjb1970

[Nearholmer]

To me, religion, as opposed to any other belief system, involves faith, that is belief in something that is ultimately untestable.

 

Any other belief system is testable in the light of experience, even if that experience takes ‘forever’ to obtain, and is largely ignored by them that will not see.

[Welly]

This morning on my way to work there was no other car in front or behind me on the main road! I also noticed that since I have not been in stop-start traffic the last few weeks, my miles per gallon has improve noticeably!

[SM42]

Whilst this is a time of stress, anxiety and, for many, overwhelming  grief, there are some very fundamantal positives to be found amongst the heartaches

 

By and large the crisis has brought out the best in people. It has restored faith in human nature and the realisation that if we work together we can achieve some quite remarkable things that don't involve personal financial enrichment.  (yes there are those who are making money or political gain out of this but that is a constant of the modern world)

 

We have come to realise that there are lots of people out there doing jobs day in and day out that we take for granted, even abuse, mock and insult sometimes  and, without whom, our normal  would not exist.

 

We have the time to catch up with those who we haven't spoken to for a long time or very often, (especially as we now only have the internet or phone to keep in touch.)

We can afford the time to listen, even relish the opportunity of having some form of contact, that we are taking some form of control in a situation we have no control over. We no longer have an excuse of having to be somewhere else. In short we are doing that most human of things, being a socail animal, but against the odds.

 

We have time to reflect on our own lives and appreciate those things that really matter to us. Possessions are not important. They may give us comfort and an element of happiness, but in the grand scheme of thing they are irrelevant.  How you live your life has been exposed down to its bare bones.

We can take the time to re-evaulate, check or change our priorities and ultimatley may come out of this feeling better about ourselves and where we think our lives are heading.

Even if we may have many more challenges in life, financial, emotional or otherwise we can take comfort in knowing we have had the time to plan,  prioritise and declutter both physically and emotionally

 

In short, whilst these are unusual, unsettling and emotional  times, we should grasp the nettle and do something positive for the future.

 

Andy

[The Johnster]

I’m a confirmed and practising atheist, but I too love the language of the KJB. Written and presumably spoken English was at it’s absolute best in those days, and it is no coincidence that Stratford Bill was doing his stuff at the same time.  The comment about the Bethlehem shepherds bricking it at xmas ‘for they were sore afraid’ is so much more expressive than it’s forgettable, and hence forgotten so far as I’m concerned, NEB trendy vicar replacement. 
 

Partly because of England’s anti-Catholicism, the committee of Anglican bishops charged by James with the translation went back to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures, ignoring the various later Latin versions, and the result is a thing of very great beauty, something that cannot have harmed it’s success and influence, still palpable in modern English usage. 

[eastglosmog]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

This morning on my way to work there was no other car in front or behind me on the main road! I also noticed that since I have not been in stop-start traffic the last few weeks, my miles per gallon has improve noticeably!

When I crossed the A44 on my morning stroll today, there was not a car in sight!  Never been able to get over it so easily before.

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, delticfan said:

Totally agree, China don’t deserve their perceived position on the world stage. Makes the old iron curtain look tame compared to what goes on behind their Westernised facade. They really need to be pushed back and I will also try and avoid their products hey it might just help other countries benefit. I don’t care if that sounds racist to some, tough, they have helped to destroy millions of lives and many more will follow, if they want to boil dogs etc. great then do it but I wouldn’t lose any sleep if this sends them back to the stone ages.

 

If the shoe fits you may as well wear it.

[chris p bacon]

8 hours ago, delticfan said:

Totally agree, China don’t deserve their perceived position on the world stage. Makes the old iron curtain look tame compared to what goes on behind their Westernised facade. They really need to be pushed back and I will also try and avoid their products hey it might just help other countries benefit. I don’t care if that sounds racist to some, tough, they have helped to destroy millions of lives and many more will follow, if they want to boil dogs etc. great then do it but I wouldn’t lose any sleep if this sends them back to the stone ages.

 

I'd say you're Xenophobic, you've shown it before on another thread. No doubt typing your reply on a Chinese made computer or tablet.

[big jim]

Now seems an appropriate time to drop this to lighten the mood 

 

The Chinese, a great bunch of lads! 

 

 

[runs as required]

Thanks for that Father Ted; one of the best - particularly, I now noticed - with the black bit already visible on the window in the early moments coming into play as the toothbrush tache later in the development of the plot  

2

I was changed (and humbled) by my 5 years of British Council exchange project with China working for York uni on "Managing historic cities".

 There were Professors there (much older than me) who'd spent 30 years banished as labourers planting rice in paddy fields far away by the Red Guards during Mao's Cultural Revolution.

They worked modestly with us - explaining their prize artefacts and how they'd managed to protect them against the RGs (and demonstrated the ways that they had still maintained their skills in supporting the peasant communes they were banished to - using sticks or anything else to hand to scratch in the dust to communicate their suggestions.)

The over-riding societal concept seems to be the perpetual ying and yang between Daoist environmentalist radical and Confucionist conformist convention  This has maintained China as an entity through 5000 years of Mongol invasion and now Revisionist communism.

So the perpetual question: How long before 1.4 billion people change Dynasty ? 

[big jim]

Just consciously heard the first plane fly over the house for weeks, (Dallas to Frankfurt Boeing 777 at 39000ft) 

 

being on the flightpath for both Manchester and Liverpool depending on the wind direction you tend to zone out normally but this morning was the opposite! 
 

also slept with the Window open and no taxis passing on the nearby main road into town at pub/club chucking out time, nice dawn chorus going on at the moment 

 

the boys camped out last night in the back garden in Their tent, couldn’t quite manage to pitch it far enough Away from the 2 plugs ive got in the garden so they could plug their phones and handheld consoles in, the eldest (15) came in at 03:30 claiming it was raining and cold and was going to his own bed so we decided to bring the youngest in too for safety, he was out like a light and the tent was lovely and warm with the 2 duvets they had in there, I should have just stayed out there and gone to sleep myself 

[EddieB]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’m a confirmed and practising atheist, but I too love the language of the KJB. Written and presumably spoken English was at it’s absolute best in those days, and it is no coincidence that Stratford Bill was doing his stuff at the same time.  The comment about the Bethlehem shepherds bricking it at xmas ‘for they were sore afraid’ is so much more expressive than it’s forgettable, and hence forgotten so far as I’m concerned, NEB trendy vicar replacement. 
 

Partly because of England’s anti-Catholicism, the committee of Anglican bishops charged by James with the translation went back to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures, ignoring the various later Latin versions, and the result is a thing of very great beauty, something that cannot have harmed it’s success and influence, still palpable in modern English usage. 

The phraseology of the King James (or Authorised Version) owes much to the work of William Tyndale, who not only translated the Bible from its original language texts (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek), but employed a rich, memorable, yet simple to understand use of English.  For putting the Bible into the hands of the common people, Tyndale was persecuted; the then Bishop of London bought as many copies of Tyndale’s translation as he could find, to burn.  Exiled to the continent, Tyndale was tricked, captured and burnt at the stake.

 

I find it relevant at this time to consider parallels with the church in China.  There is an “official” church, which is controlled by the state.  There are also many varieties of unregistered churches, and this outbreak of Coronavirus has followed a time of repression and persecution of these churches.  The Chinese authorities are afraid because these churches represent a belief system committed to asking questions and does not accept the state-controlled media accounts at face value.

[jjb1970]

Something worth considering when the subject of Chinese society comes up for discussion is the effect of 19th and 20th Century events. Few outside China are aware of the Taipin rebellion which left lasting scars with respect to how Christianity was viewed in China  and which followed European encroachment and the opium war (an event oddly absent from our own collective memory of history). Then there were the European concessions and colonies like HK and Tsingtao. And of course the war with Japan which was truly ghastly and which killed vast numbers but which we remember as a minor adjunct to WW2 if at all. Then the civil war and Communism (another fine European ideological export) and the trauma of the cultural revolution (another ghastly period). Maybe if people studied China even slightly they'd think before making asinine and objectionable comments about sending people back to the stone age etc.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Having just found this thread, but not read all the posts through a (hopefully) short term eyesight problem, I hope that the following might come about when this pandemic is fully under control - if that is possible.

 

Bill Gates TED talk of some five years ago becomes compulsive listening for politicians and journalists across the world.

The NHS is recognised for its full value and funded accordingly.

We recognise that a socially aware and responsible society should look after its members better than we have been doing, especially for the disadvantaged.

That putting the economy largely into the hands of self interested capitalists, shareholders, etc. isn't always a good thing and that some activities need to be better managed for the overall benefit of society. The American model, which Trump seems to be advocating strongly at this time, of Profit before People, is proving to be rather dubious.

The UK becomes more self sufficient in manufacturing and less dependant on other countries.

China is properly castigated for its appalling domestic hygiene which apparently created the Covid19 and SARS epidemics, and their selfish annihilation of the planets rarer animals through outdated beliefs in folk medicine.

 

 

[jjb1970]

I am not sure what will happen going forward. The country already had high levels of debt and is taking on huge levels of further debt. It's worth remembering that we have an NHS because we can pay for it so restarting the economy will be a priority. The drop in economic activity and consequential unemployment is likely to be a bigger humanitarian tragedy than the virus if we can't get a pretty quick economic recovery. 

 

On China, their government is trying to address various issues related to traditional beliefs but China is no different to anywhere else in that it takes a long time to change societal attitudes. 

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The American model, which Trump seems to be advocating strongly at this time, of Profit before People, is proving to be rather dubious.

 

And yet his approval ratings are higher then ever. It seems that he can do no wrong - and I don't understand that either.

 

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The UK becomes more self sufficient in manufacturing and less dependant on other countries.

 

The UK population become willing to pay what it costs to make things in the UK? Not a chance IMHO. People on here moan about prices when stuff is made in China!

 

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The NHS is recognised for its full value and funded accordingly.

 

You mean people get into the privacy of the polling booth and decide not to vote for the party offering lower taxes? Can't see that.

 

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

China is properly castigated for its appalling domestic hygiene which apparently created the Covid19 and SARS epidemics, and their selfish annihilation of the planets rarer animals through outdated beliefs in folk medicine.

 

You mean declare war on China? That would result in even more deaths than the current virus on all sides. The UK is hardly blameless in this either, remember BSE? I'd be happy if people stopped holding "traditional" medicine in high regard and decided that science was a good thing, but I don't hold out much hope of that either. When a vaccine is developed, I fully expect large numbers to campaign against it being administered.

 

If you think I'm cynical, I offer Ryan Air as an example. A couple of years ago the media was full of stories of their appalling customer care. You couldn't switch on the TV without seeing vox-pops with people saying how they were never going to fly with them again due to the poor service. Did Ryan Air go bust? Nope. They just offered (apparently) cheap fares and those very same people booked up again...

[jjb1970]

It's not quite as simple as deriding traditional medicine,  the pharmaceutical industry studies traditional remedies as in many cases herbs, plants, bark etc have been found to contain substances which are effective and which when extracted and refined are used in modern scientific drugs. And for many centuries Chinese medicine was more effective than our own, for example Chinese ships carried herb gardens to maintain crew health.

[APOLLO]

The famous French military leader and emperor Napoleon Bonaparte once said, “There lies a sleeping giant. Let him sleep! For when he wakes, he will shake the world.” This was in reference to China, and quite the prediction for someone who only lived until 1821

 

And boy are we shaking now !!.

 

Brit15

[Jol Wilkinson]

Phil,

 

you may well be right by pointing out that the UK population has the economy, healthcare system, etc. that it deserves and that peoples natural greed and selfishness will prevail in an open market. If things revert to where they were, then we as a nation will have learned nothing from this pandemic.

 

Trump may be as popular as ever, but his public approval rating has not gone up significantly (various sources including NBC, CNN, NYT, etc.). This is apparently usual in times of crisis for the US of A where people respond to a President's perceived positive handling of the issue.

 

Declare war on China, don't put words in my mouth. However, the Chinese should be pressurised to take such action as they can to prevent such events as Covid 19 and SARs arising though poor hygiene practises.

 

JJB

 

was I deriding traditional medicine? Possibly, if you consider ground rhino horn as an aphrodisiac. Clearly many of the compounds that are used in medicines are found in nature, even if later synthesised for mass production.

 

As a nation we have not been slow to forget the old ways. Dock leaves to reduce the sting from nettles was one I soon leaned as a child, but as children don't seem to play out in the wild so much nowadays I guess that's something  that is no longer important. 

 

My main point was that we should reflect on what this pandemic has shown us, about ourselves, our society and the interaction of the countries in the world. Otherwise it will likely happen again - Bill Gates TED talk in 2015  was very prescient.

 

 

[woodenhead]

31 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

The famous French military leader and emperor Napoleon Bonaparte once said, “There lies a sleeping giant. Let him sleep! For when he wakes, he will shake the world.” This was in reference to China, and quite the prediction for someone who only lived until 1821

 

And boy are we shaking now !!.

 

Brit15

There is a conspiracy theory doing the rounds, and I cannot prove here whether it is true or not but in some respects it does make interesting reading though I will not be sharing the link.  However, China has bounced back very quickly from Covid 19 and is now offering help to the Western world which appears to be paralysed by this virus.

 

The declaration in the theory was we have just witnessed World War 3, we lost and not one missile was fired.

 

There were various claims made in the theory about the lack of Chinese victims to the virus especially at a high level and in many big cities, but I think the reality is that this virus has shown how authoritarian governments who can control the spread of information can apply the same tactics to control the spread of viral and bacterial infections.  The Chinese Goverment are also highly intellectual, the opportunities open to them being first out of lockdown will not be lost on them and they can apply Silk Road theories to reach out to other countries in their time of need and gain bigger footholds in the domestic activities of those countries.   America can see this happening right in front of their eyes hence Trump's recent outbursts about the WHO and it's China centric attitude.  It is America who is losing out right now when it would normally expect to be leading the response it is crippled too by internal politics and an America First policy that has created this massive gap in international politics that the Chinese will exploit to the max.

 

I am also interested when reading about some of the challenges the EU is now facing, I was very much against Brexit but the slow response and closing of borders in a block without borders has displayed that Europe is not a State, it is still a loose gathering of countries and when push comes to shove they look to their own countries first and Europe second.

 

For the UK, I hope that on the other side of this the Government recognise that we do need to be more self sufficient.  We shouldn't need to be fighting as the French did with the Americans on the tarmac of a Chinese airport over a shipment of PPE nor should we be lacking in the ability generate mass testing regimes when the next virus comes.  The Prime Minister is out of hospital now, perhaps this was his road to Damascus moment, there is so much the UK can take to the world and  we need to grab hold of the opportunity just like the Chinese are doing.

Edited April 13, 2020 by woodenhead
Spelling

[Fenman]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

I am not sure what will happen going forward. The country already had high levels of debt and is taking on huge levels of further debt.

 ... 

Not sure that’s true — eg, government debt as % of GDP:

 

Japan — 237

Italy — 133

United States — 106

France — 99

Spain — 96

Canada — 88

UK — 86

 

Looks like there’s lots of headroom there. 
 

Paul

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

But the outbreak also showed the weakness of authoritarian governments: they fear truth.

 

The authorities in China tried to suppress news of the outbreak in the first place by bullying and threats.

 

If they hadn't, far far fewer people would have died in China or elsewhere.

 

Personally I believe the Chinese communist party will be out of power before the celebration of the 75th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic in October 2024.

Remember when the Soviet empire collapsed and it was replaced by a fully democratic government.

 

Whilst the Chinese Government is making lives better for most of it's people by mixing authoritarian policies with capitalist enrichment for the few then it will get by I expect.  It is using technology to enforce it's grip within China itself so whilst I could see a scenario where it relinquishes some interests outside of the mainland I doubt anything could replace the current structure without breaking up China itself and the consequent impact on the rest of the world.  Has the Chinese Government got itself into a position where actually the rest of the world needs it to exist to function so it ends up in no-one's interest for a collapse in the regime, even America needs a stable China.

 

Russia has oil and is basically the wild west now but oil is not the future, China has industries that the rest of the world needs now and in the future.  It plays the long game and from what I can see it is winning.

 

I guess the future will be begin in Hong Kong, Covid 19 came at a very good time to put a stop to the mass protests.  Amazing that in a city like Hong Kong only 130 became infected.  It has allowed the Chinese space to breath and make some arrests to quell the ability to create new protests so we will see where this goes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/hong-kong-with-coronavirus-curbed-protests-may-return

Edited April 13, 2020 by woodenhead