Hornby Dublo - Modern Image?

[SR71]

I've been looking at Dublo recently having fond memories of playing with my Dad's collection in the 80's. Looking at the production dates given on some of the auction items it struck me that the liveries seemed to have moved on with the times.

 

Rather than the big fuss being about nostalgia items - Peckett, Rustin, etc. - today they seemed to be keeping up with the latest developments and dropping older stuff when it could not be seen on the network anymore.

 

This might be blindingly obvious to those that were there but is something I'd never considered before. For instance they don't seem to have done any of the more decorative earlier grouping liveries that would have been current just 15-20 years prior to the model and they haven't done any pre-grouping models at all. In tin printing some of these liveries would have looked spectacular.

 

Is my perception right or was it more nuanced than that? Is nostalgia now better than it was?

[Wolseley]

I suppose it was because their products were intended for use as toys rather than models, although some of their later output blurred the line between toys and models somewhat.  There was a much bigger divide between the two back then as opposed to now.  The pre-grouping scene was the preserve of modellers, and the toy market was for what was then current.  You could repaint the 0-6-2T in GNR colours, and there is always the R1, but precious little else.

[1E BoY]

Had Hornby-Dublo survived for just a little longer they could have produced one of these. This was professionally repainted for me and is fitted with Shawplan nameplates and Fox transfers.

 

The tin printed SD Mark 1 coaches would have looked good in BR corporate blue & grey.

 

Before any serious HD collectors get upset, this model was rescued from scrap yard condition and was purchased very cheaply as a result!

[giz]

Triang kept their liveries up to date as well. In the late 60s anything appropriate was released in Rail Blue. It was only after the end of steam on BR that they started to produce steam locos in pre-nationalisation liveries.

[Il Grifone]

Dublo tried to keep up with the latest liveries, but, thanks to things like the Korean war, they weren't always able to. Post-nationalisation liveries took until 1953 for example. The first Tri-ang 'vintage' models were the Dean Single and the Rocket, followed by the Caledonian Single, but this was a preserved prototype so doesn't count? After the demise of BR steam they produced many of their models in pre-nationalisation/grouping livery (not always correctly!).

[SR71]

3 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

After the demise of BR steam they produced many of their models in pre-nationalisation/grouping livery (not always correctly!).

 

The Somerset and Dorset Nellie springs too mind!

 

I had a reasonable amount of triang but looking at it now it's Dublo 3 rail that most evokes the stream era British railways for me. Which I guess makes sense as it's a homogeneous collection from that period. Or it could just be that triang mineral wagons just don't clatter the way HD ones do!

 

As has been said many times they were vastly over engineered and researched for toys.

 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Tri-ang Hornby first released a current, as opposed to historical, locomotive in pre nationalisation livery with the original Flying Scotsman models.

 

It was made in BR livery, with non corridor tender, as 60103.

 

Then it was also, at the same time, available in LNER livery, with a corridor tender, as 4472.

 

Again, as the loco was preserved, it may not count.

 

But it was the success of the sales of the LNER version, over the BR version,  which pointed the way to the move to pre nationalisation liveries a year or two later...

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Sarahagain

[DCB]

A lot of people predicted the end for model railways, at least as the premier go to Boys  Christmas present , as the end of steam approached.  Slot cars were the future.  Triang rolled the dice with Battle space and Minic Road Rail sets and the Rocket and Dean Single.   The first old livery loco I remember was the 3F 0-6-0 in red Midland livery,  I had mine when I first went 2 rail which was 1968 aged 12  I believe.  I found the pre nationalisation liveries to be a nuisance, and gradually  lost interest until around 1978 when following an accident on my Ariel Arrow I walked the 100 yards from Chelenham Hospital to Cheltenham Model centre in Bath Road and bought a BR Livery Airfix  14XX which I thought was amazing.   That got me modelling again and repainting rewheeling detailing Triang etc locos which I am still doing today. 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Ah yes..

 

 

The "Midlander" train set had the R.251 Deeley 3f 0-6-0 tender loco in a Midland Railway style, with two BR Maroon MK1 coaches!

 

I'd forgotten that one.

 

Also available "solo", on its own, loco and tender.

 

The catalogue had a BR Maroon version, but that was a mistake as, apart from the one model modified for photography, it seems none were made in that livery...

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

A lot of people predicted the end for model railways, at least as the premier go to Boys  Christmas present , as the end of steam approached.  Slot cars were the future.

Of course, Lines Bros. had both Scalextric and Minic Motorways to hedge their bets on, not to mention the Big Big Train with the outdoor track.

[Wolseley]

I seem to remember reading somewhere (possibly in Michael Foster's book, but if it was, I can't find a reference to it now) that, when Tr-ang brought out the Lord of the Isles, someone brought an example along to a meeting of the Meccano management team, with the suggestion that Dublo should have a small range of historic models.   Apparently the idea was favourably received, but had to be shelved as, by then (I think we would be talking of 1961 here), the company was in the final stages of a terminal financial collapse.

[BR60103]

Dublo kept their models current. When the LMS pacifics received smoke deflectors, Dublo modified their production to have them.  A stock of non-deflectored locos was repainted as Canadian Pacific and flogged to the unsophisticated colonials. Who didn't recognize them and didn't buy them.

 

[Il Grifone]

8 hours ago, Sarahagain said:

Ah yes..

 

 

The "Midlander" train set had the R.251 Deeley 3f 0-6-0 tender loco in a Midland Railway style, with two BR Maroon MK1 coaches!

 

I'd forgotten that one.

 

Also available "solo", on its own, loco and tender.

 

The catalogue had a BR Maroon version, but that was a mistake as, apart from the one model modified for photography, it seems none were made in that livery...

 

The MR livery should have been black, but that would rather have defeated the object of a colourful livery. Their GWR clerestory carriages appeared in Midland livery (approximately) sometime later.

 

Dublo were caught out with their Duchess. Planned pre-war, she had the crimson livery, but, by the time the model was released (1948 IIRC), the prototype had smoke deflectors and black livery. They did update the N2 tank liveries (including from black to green in 1948 for the LNER version, in line with prototype policy (AFAIK only 9522 made it in real life). The A4 lost her valances post-war.

Trix gave up and never released their Princess and streamlined Coronation after the war, though the 'Scotsman*' appeared in BR blue. (There are rumours of a black version?).  Just as well, as sales of the Princess would have been poor once the Rovex model appeared at about a quarter of the Trix price. (I assume it would have been about the same as the 'Scotsman' at around £10, a fortune in those days - a Dublo Pacific was around £4 - about £100 today.)

[Wolseley]

11 hours ago, Sarahagain said:

Ah yes..

 

 

The "Midlander" train set had the R.251 Deeley 3f 0-6-0 tender loco in a Midland Railway style, with two BR Maroon MK1 coaches!

 

I'd forgotten that one.

 

Also available "solo", on its own, loco and tender.

 

The catalogue had a BR Maroon version, but that was a mistake as, apart from the one model modified for photography, it seems none were made in that livery...

 

Going off-topic here but, if you think The Midlander or even the Dublo Canadian Pacific are taking things a bit too far, how about the Tri-ang/Moldex RS 21 Trans Australia Set.  A maroon (sort of) Princess Royal, with two very American looking coaches lettered "Trans Australia".  There's one presently on eBay with a starting price of $350.  No bids yet, but I don't think that it's one of the more desirable local productions, unlike the Tri-ang Sydney suburban EMUs .

 

[Il Grifone]

Those are the coaches they made for Australia, which for some reason are even shorter than the ones for Canada aren't they? I suppose an 85 foot of thereabouts coach is not going around 13½" radius curves however hard you try.

 

I remember Slot cars (quite fun to start with, but eventually boring IMHO and you need to be in two to play ) were going to kill model railways. They almost did, but it appears that it wasn't only my opinion.

It was a factor in the collapse of Meccano Ltd. (Circuit 24 never caught on) but there were many reasons.

Tri-ang didn't fall into their diesel mania for one.

[SR71]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I remember Slot cars (quite fun to start with, but eventually boring IMHO and you need to be in two to play ) were going to kill model railways. They almost did, but it appears that it wasn't only my opinion.

It was a factor in the collapse of Meccano Ltd. (Circuit 24 never caught on) but there were many reasons.

Tri-ang didn't fall into their diesel mania for one.

 

Minic Motorway with level crossings brought a whole new level of jeopardy though!

 

Interesting to note that both shifted but that Triang's cheaper production methods/thinking enabled them to switch more readily? The Hornby Dublo mail coach for instance is absurdly over engineered compared to its plastic counterpart. And presumably just so the flaps didn't open when there wasn't a mail bag.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Hornby Dublo TPO could still open with no mail bags present.

 

Just as long as you pressed the operating button...

 

On the other hand, you could choose to not deposit a loaded mail bag, if you didn't press that button.

 

But electric operation is more complicated, especially the two rail version!

 

 

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Those are the coaches they made for Australia, which for some reason are even shorter than the ones for Canada aren't they? I suppose an 85 foot of thereabouts coach is not going around 13½" radius curves however hard you try.

 

I remember Slot cars (quite fun to start with, but eventually boring IMHO and you need to be in two to play ) were going to kill model railways. They almost did, but it appears that it wasn't only my opinion.

It was a factor in the collapse of Meccano Ltd. (Circuit 24 never caught on) but there were many reasons.

Tri-ang didn't fall into their diesel mania for one.

I don't think the Canadian models were any different to the Australian versions, apart from the lettering.

Didn't the tooling get passed around from Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand (maybe not in that order), for the Transcontinental series at least? Presumably ended back in the UK for repair. Some presumably stayed, such as the Sydney Suburban as pointless sending that OS.

[BR60103]

One of our late Platelayers said that companies (he said Airfix) used to move tools from country to country as the duties on that was less than importing boxed kits and such.

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

There were a lot of Tri-ang tools made specifically for overseas markets.

 

It was indeed a method to lessen import duties, by shipping in components, and setting up factories in other countries so that items could be "made" in that country, even if some items were assembled from imported parts.

 

South Africa had their own tools as far as I know. Some certainly had slight differences to other tools.

 

There was tool sharing between New Zealand and Australia.

 

These models were marked Made in Australia & New Zealand.

 

The Australian and New Zealand TC passenger cars are indeed shorter than those from Margate for the North American and UK markets.

 

I don't know about South African passenger cars.

 

The Australian and New Zealand "Jinty" model has a dummy headlight in front of the chimney.

 

Interestingly, I have seen models where the Made in Australia and New Zealand has been scraped or otherwise rendered almost unreadable, and a Tri-ang Made in England transfer applied.

 

These are examples of the R.56 TC Baltic 4-6-4 Tank locomotives.

 

My theory is that the tools to be sent abroad were made and tested in Margate by being run on the production machines. Some at least of the mouldings made being "modified" with the transfers, and used to make up models.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Sarahagain
more added...

[Il Grifone]

Didn't the colonies* get lumbered with obsolete tools? I think the TC coaches sold in the UK and Canada have an extra window - must check. They work out about 70 feet long. I have some for my US layout (with new bogies - the first type in zinc alloy aren't too bad, but the second type in plastic are awful). The TC range does not seem very consistent in scale. These coaches are definitely H0, but the locos to pull them are more like 00. The freight cars are somewhere in the middle.

 

*Just kidding!

 

The Dublo TPO van was designed to eject the mail bag from the same side as the net (like the prototype) which saved having two different track units. The solenoid operation ensures it works correctly (Most of the time). 

There's a Tri-ang one on Italian eBay at the moment together with a load of other useless bits.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/SCALA-H0-Solo-per-parti-di-ricambio/372998717513?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Edited April 2, 2020 by Il Grifone
Added link

[Wolseley]

1 hour ago, Sarahagain said:

There were a lot of Tri-ang tools made specifically for overseas markets.

 

It was indeed a method to lessen import duties, by shipping in components, and setting up factories in other countries so that items could be "made" in that country, even if some items were assembled from imported parts.

 

South Africa had their own tools as far as I know. Some certainly had slight differences to other tools.

 

There was tool sharing between New Zealand and Australia.

 

 

Yes, and the same was true of cars too.  The British Motor Corporation had a plant in Australia where they manufactured a range of vehicles - the more local content, the less the tax.  BMC had the tools installed to cast and make complete engines and presses to stamp out bodies with only a few electrical and trim components being imported.  Some of the BMC cars had a higher level of local manufactured content than the Holden, which was advertised as "Australia's own car".

 

Cars that sold in smaller numbers were imported as CKD kits (less tax than complete cars) with only a few luxury and specialist vehicles being fully imported.  It's hard to believe it now but, in the 1950s and early 1960s, the British Motor Corporation was the fourth largest car manufacturer in Australia.

[andyman7]

On 02/04/2020 at 08:36, Sarahagain said:

South Africa had their own tools as far as I know. Some certainly had slight differences to other tools.

 

There was tool sharing between New Zealand and Australia.

 

These models were marked Made in Australia & New Zealand.

 

The Australian and New Zealand TC passenger cars are indeed shorter than those from Margate for the North American and UK markets.

 

I don't know about South African passenger cars.

 

The South African TC coaches are the 'short' versions too - I am lucky enough to have a pair

On 02/04/2020 at 09:38, Il Grifone said:

Didn't the colonies* get lumbered with obsolete tools? I think the TC coaches sold in the UK and Canada have an extra window - must check. They work out about 70 feet long.

In a number of cases yes, but they also had their own tooling for some models - not just the TC coaches but subjects such as the R152 Diesel Shunter, which for some reason had a slightly higher roofline making it even more ungainly than its UK counterpart. The R159 double ended diesel also has minor differences. These days of course CAD would ensure that duplicate tools were identical but back then there was ample opportunity for variation.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, HD was ‘modern image’ to the last; the final HD loco was, of course, a very up-to-date OHL electric.

 

Dewy-eyed nostalgia for the fairly-recent past, which is largely what sells historical models, was only just getting into its stride when HD folded. Things like canal and railway preservation were just taking off, widespread home-restoration of obsolete cars and vans hadn’t really started, and barely anyone was thinking about saving redundant industrial buildings, or recreating Edwardian industrial street-scapes in captivity.

 

Triang were the clever ones, both spotting and helping to foster the quickly emerging trend of ‘recent-past-ism’.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Nearholmer

[unravelled]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Triang were the clever ones, both spotting and helping to foster the quickly emerging trend of ‘recent-past-ism’.

 

Including , of course, by buying the Hornby brand...

 

Dave