Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

Much to think on here...

 

Route as it stood was (very roughly, and un-checked)

 

Swindon - Avebury, via Wroughton and the neighbourhood of Winterbourne Basset for the surrounding villages

(I've not drawn this very accurately, sorry, but you can see the line of villages curving South)

 

Then a Dubious Dogleg, Avebury - Marlborough, via Fyfield (though few, if any, services to stop here)

 

Then diving South again for Pewsey - Upavon

 

and along the valley for Sarum, Fisherton Junction and Salisbury

Ugly curve around Sarum, but frankly it's lucky not to have had a tunnel driven through it so I think we can give it a pass. The route is very nearly the MSWJR (who dat?), but aiming for Salisbury from Swindon makes for some notable differences. No idea if they're remotely plausible differences, route very much a working suggestion only!

 

Good question! I think because taking our left turn from reality at the filling-in of the canal from Stroud-Cirencester to gazump the GWR's Gloucester-Swindon folly (hands off, that's our valley!), and sneaking a line up to Cheltenham - a booming spa town at the time - round the back to nick that traffic too I can see our fledgling line facing the same opportunities picked up by those who proposed the MSWJR but a couple of decades earlier.

 

Having got a line from Cheltenham to Swindon, it makes a lot of sense to drive south for access to Southampton. As best I currently understand it, they could do this very neatly by getting to Salisbury, where another connection with the GWR might also open up another set of through-traffic options on the line. As long as they can access Southampton traffic, I don't see they stand to gain enough to put in their own line to the docks...?

 

Likewise other far-flung and exotic destinations (what goes in Wa-hey!mouth stays in Wa-hey!mouth, after all). I need to check, but believe the LSWR had already got the area along the Dorset coast pretty well locked down by this point? Our M&WJR offers a rare route almost directly North to the Midland(s), which could be to the benefit of every company it connects with, but I can't see it being in a position (or of an inclination) to pick a fight with One of the Big Boys by going into direct competition...?

 

Overall route then:

Hub at Cirencester - by the 1880s this will need to be a fairly well-appointed through junction station, with the original terminus goods only?

Mainline terminating services to (clockwise from top) Cheltenham, Oxford, Swindon/Salisbury, Gloucester. Using other companies' stations at all?

Branch termini - in house - at (clockwise from bottom) Tetbury (via Kemble), Nailsworth (via Stroud) and Saul (goods only for the Company deep-water dock on the Ship Canal, @Northroader? )

 

We start with Gloucester - Swindon, via Cirencester. This will upset the GWR, and so I like to think we can count on the support of the MR to access the town/docks.

 

Then comes Cheltenham - Swindon, getting back in with the GWR.

 

Routes to Oxford and Salisbury probably begin around the same time. I don't think it impossible that the LNWR would support the former, the MR the latter, given the opportunity to extend their reach, but I don't think we need go as far as push for joint ownership/management of these new lines. We're doing quite well enough financially, thank you very much.

 

Branches are a bit by-the-by, but Nailsworth will have needed its railway ASAP to keep original investors on side, and so would have been first. Tetbury is a no-brainer, as along as funds allow, and Saul Dock will need a bit of thinking about but could well be part of the national dock-improvement boom of the 1860s-80s.

 

Is that risk of being plausible? If so is quite enough to be getting on with!

 

 

This is becoming interesting indeed. Apart from the Netherport line as mentioned by Nick above, your route also seems to cross the North & South Junction Railway, which crossed the Berks & Hants extension rwy at Farthing. We need an integrated map to sort it all out 😀.

 

Edit: That would be fun, actually. I wonder if there is some software where everyone could draw on the same map.

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Mikkel

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

 

This is becoming interesting indeed. Apart from the Netherport line as mentioned by Nick above, your route also seems to cross the North & South Junction Railway, which crossed the Berks & Hants extension rwy at Farthing. We need an integrated map to sort it all out 😀.

 

Perhaps an entry from the RCH junctions book, there could be some carefully contrived links...

[kitpw]

37 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Perhaps an entry from the RCH junctions book, there could be some carefully contrived links...

...I happened to see these for sale just today https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/ian-allan-publishing-ltd/pre-grouping-atlas-and-rch-junction-diagrams. 

 

[magmouse]

43 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if there is some software where everyone could draw on the same map.

 

Have you used Miro? It's a kind of online, shared, interactive whiteboard. Multiple users can add content - images, text, drawn elements, etc. I've used it as a collaboration tool for developing projects, and its great.

 

www.miro.com

 

Nick.

[kitpw]

56 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if there is some software where everyone could draw on the same map.

https://data.catchmentbasedapproach.org/maps/131be1ff1498429eacf806f939807f20/about.

National Library of Scotland Historic Maps API

Historical Maps of Great Britain for use in mashups and ArcGIS Online.  Mashups sounds promising.

 

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

We need an integrated map to sort it all out 😀.

Agreed! I was burrowing through 'real' Wiltshire thinking "Hang on, isn't Farthing round here somewhere?". Given how much inspiration (and information) flows between models and modellers it seems natural to me that all these stations (and other railway companies. Looking at you WNR) are part of one system. 

 

51 minutes ago, kitpw said:

...I happened to see these for sale just today

404 error this end. For sale no longer?

 

47 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I've used it as a collaboration tool for developing projects, and its great.

Sounds ideal, and a good little weekend investigative project. Thank you.

 

32 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Mashups sounds promising.

Ditto! Thank you also :)

Edited April 14, 2023 by Schooner

[magmouse]

42 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Mashups sounds promising.

 

I've had a bit of a poke round with this - the arcgis server looks promising-ish:

 

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?panel=gallery&layers=131be1ff1498429eacf806f939807f20

 

However, so far I can't see how to get it to show the NLS historical map, or how you would have multiple people work on the same map (unless they used the same log-in and didn't work at the same time). You can though annotate maps with lines, images, etc., so it has some potential.

 

Nick

[Mikkel]

A joint account on Google Maps would be straightforward. However, the base layers there are not very satisfying, being modern and not highlighting the real railway lines very well.

 

There is something called the Open Railway Map, but it's not clear to me if it can be easily exported and used by others:  https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mikkel
Typos

[kitpw]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

There is something called the Open Railway Map, but it's not clear to me if it can be easily exported and used by others:  https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

Well found Mikkel! Under more information, it says on the website: "OpenRailwayMap is Open Source software and is freely available for download under the GPL version 3."  Not sure what GPL version 3 is but I will look further.  At least it prioritises railways and seems to have closed/dismantled lines as well - including a very obscure shortlived line in east Cornwall (1880s) that ran from Wacker Quay to Tregantle Fort so it looks as if some well informed enthusiasts have been adding data to the map.

 

Of course, if a new, old UK rail network is developed by private companies, not only will we need a re-constituted Railway Clearing House but a new ABC Rail Guide as well.  Perhaps 1923's grouping will be revisited at +100 years...

[kitpw]

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

404 error this end. For sale no longer?

I guess so.  But you could try https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/railway-junction-diagrams-1915/?ref_=ps_ggl_262275853&cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_ETA_DSA-_-naa-_-naa  It's the David & Charles reprint.

Kit PW

[Schooner]

For an excellent photo full of railway wagons and shipping, you'll have to head over to Ingleford. Here, we're settling down into rural Somerset for a spell. Joining our friend Cecil Sharp (during one of his folk song collecting jaunts) on the quayside in Bridgwater, c.1905, whilst waiting for the pub to open and our appointments to begin, he set up his camera:

 

 

Boat, Bridgwater, Somerset, c1905. Photograph taken during British musician Cecil Sharp's (1859-1924) folk music collecting trips. (Photo by EFD SS/Heritage Images/Getty Images)

 

 

Bridgwater, Somerset, c1905. Photograph taken during British musician Cecil Sharp's (1859-1924) folk music collecting trips. (Photo by EFD SS/Heritage Images/Getty Images)

 

 

Quay, Bridgwater, Somerset, c1905. Photograph taken during British musician Cecil Sharp's (1859-1924) folk music collecting trips. (Photo by EFD SS/Heritage Images/Getty Images)

 

Bridgwater of course had extensive rail-served quaysides, as well as a modern locked railway dock. No trains to be seen in the above, apologies, but still lots and lots of use to the pre-Grouping modeller I reckon...quite apart from the excellent demonstration in hull-form variation between coasting ketches and Severn trows, as seen in the middle image!

[magmouse]

Fabulous pictures, once again - the row of buildings in the background of the first and third pictures is a delight, and those in the second picture are also wonderfully decrepit. At some point, I am going to need some nautical advice to help my land-lubber's brain understand what kind of ship(s) would be appropriate at Netherport (without being insanely big at 1:43.5), and how to build one.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

Oh, and the advert: "This is the noted provision store".

 

OK, noted.

[ChrisN]

Fyfield.  It could have a halt.  On the Cambrian they had 'request stops' with signals on the platform that were operated by passengers wanting to board a train.  I am not sure there is an on line image.

[Nick C]

On 15/04/2023 at 09:35, kitpw said:

Well found Mikkel! Under more information, it says on the website: "OpenRailwayMap is Open Source software and is freely available for download under the GPL version 3."  Not sure what GPL version 3 is but I will look further. 

That looks like it's referring to the software behind it, not the data - althouygh that's also available under an open Licence I believe?

 

GPLv3 basically says you can do what you like with the software, but if you then release it, it has to be under the same licence (i.e. you have to make your own changes freely available to anyone else who might want them) - it's effectively anti-copyright.

[Schooner]

Playing catch up a bit. I have been playing with maps, but at a more local scale trying to work out what on earth would have happened with all these routes around Cirencester and what/how that might be modelled.

 

Might a Wiki be a way to collate information - a Compendium of pre-Grouper's Railways? A place we can write up our layouts not as 'like Prototype X but full of compromises and concessions', but of variably-fictionalised places accurately modelled and all sitting together on one (inter- ?) national network. 

 

@ChrisN almost lost me at "halt" - that word conjuring up a very specific set of images for me, largely featuring the distinctive GWR railmotors (which I actually wrote out of the M&WJR's history-as-currently-understood when I realised just how incongruous they would have been on the line) - but got me hook, line and sinker with

On 15/04/2023 at 18:09, ChrisN said:

...'request stops' with signals on the platform that were operated by passengers wanting to board a train.

which conjures all sorts of excellent images, not least of my own improbably pictoresque local station which was, until recently, a request stop on a fairly busy (historically also) secondary line. T

 

There is now a plan for Fyfield, and enough threads to tug at to turn it into a detailed layout design. Thank you, Chris, really pleased with this turn of events :)

[MrWolf]

Mention of passenger operated stop signals always puts me in mind of the Shropshire & Montgomery Railway in its earliest form.

 

Wikimedia commons 

[Tom Burnham]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Mention of passenger operated stop signals always puts me in mind of the Shropshire & Montgomery Railway in its earliest form.

 

Wikimedia commons 

High Halden Road and Frittenden Road (and I think Bodiam in the early days) on the KESR had signals to indicate to drivers that they needed to stop. Fairly conventional looking semaphore signals with two arms (one each way) on the same post. I think they were probably operated by the station agent - successive teenagers in the early days at Frittenden Road. Are there examples on main line railways?

[WFPettigrew]

6 hours ago, Schooner said:

got me hook, line and sinker

 

I know the thread has now moved onto light railways using signals of some sort - but the Furness, like the Cambrian, had passenger operated signals at Newby Bridge Motor Platform (later Halt after they moved their one railmotor to the Coniston branch) on the Windermere Lake Side line.  I would post a photo but, copyright and all that...  

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Northroader]

5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Mention of passenger operated stop signals always puts me in mind of the Shropshire & Montgomery Railway in its earliest form.

 

Wikimedia commons 

Another of those places where the name has its own local pronunciation, in this case “Shraden”.

[Hroth]

12 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Another of those places where the name has its own local pronunciation, in this case “Shraden”.

Sounds like a bicycle tyre valve!

 

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

High Halden Road and Frittenden Road (and I think Bodiam in the early days) on the KESR had signals to indicate to drivers that they needed to stop. Fairly conventional looking semaphore signals with two arms (one each way) on the same post. I think they were probably operated by the station agent - successive teenagers in the early days at Frittenden Road. Are there examples on main line railways?

 

Quite possibly in the early days. The Bishop's Castle Railway had station signals built by Stevens & Co circa 1867 which remained in situ, if not in use until the end in 1936.

 

This is the one at Horderley

 

disused.stations.org.uk

[ChrisN]

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

Playing catch up a bit. I have been playing with maps, but at a more local scale trying to work out what on earth would have happened with all these routes around Cirencester and what/how that might be modelled.

 

Might a Wiki be a way to collate information - a Compendium of pre-Grouper's Railways? A place we can write up our layouts not as 'like Prototype X but full of compromises and concessions', but of variably-fictionalised places accurately modelled and all sitting together on one (inter- ?) national network. 

 

@ChrisN almost lost me at "halt" - that word conjuring up a very specific set of images for me, largely featuring the distinctive GWR railmotors (which I actually wrote out of the M&WJR's history-as-currently-understood when I realised just how incongruous they would have been on the line) - but got me hook, line and sinker with

which conjures all sorts of excellent images, not least of my own improbably pictoresque local station which was, until recently, a request stop on a fairly busy (historically also) secondary line. T

 

There is now a plan for Fyfield, and enough threads to tug at to turn it into a detailed layout design. Thank you, Chris, really pleased with this turn of events :)

 

I thought you might like that

 

The Cambrian had two 'flag' stations, one was Bryngywn on the LLanfyllin branch, I do not know which the other was.  However, this is the Cambrian, 🙂, and there are several stations on the Main Line, on the Mid Wales Line, and one on the Coast Line, technically a branch line, where you had to tell the guard that you wanted to get off, and the train would only stop to pick up passengers if signalled to do so.

[Schooner]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

*like*

 

2 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Ditto.

 

5 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

...the thread has now moved on...

Unlikely! It expands acquisitively, mycelium-like, but I don't think it can ever be said to remove its tendrils from any topic :) Information relating to the Furness and Cambrian is not only very welcome but often very helpful. There's not so much of their influence showing from my end just yet due to ignorance. This will change (however slightly!) over time. For some reason I found myself reading about the early days of the S&DJR last night, for example... :)

 

By banishing from mind the usual Halt tropes and allowing space for the concept of a request stop to develop, I think something quite fun, plausible (enough) but uniquely and distinctively Mercia(n?) and Wessex could be 'discovered'. 

 

The line, as I currently have it in mind, makes much of its through services intra- and inter-GWR, MR, LNWR, LSWR. Primarily this relates to goods traffic, but passenger services would surely follow? Thus a way station format which permits minimum disruption/line occupation would make some intuitive sense (until time moves on, experience is gained, and everything is rationalised out idiosyncrasy in the 1900s). A long-ish platform on a loop off the running line - in my mind I have a hazy image of something akin some of the early GWR BG through station formations - served by request-only trains might be just the thing. Not the usual halt/request stop trains of railmotor or tank loco and driving carriage etc, but something between that and a cross-country semi-fast. FR/CR might be the perfect touchstones. I think we can safely assume these stations date from the line's construction, and were probably not long left for this world by the 1880s.

[WFPettigrew]

17 minutes ago, Schooner said:

A long-ish platform on a loop off the running line - in my mind I have a hazy image of something akin some of the early GWR BG through station formations - served by request-only trains might be just the thing.

 

Interesting idea - but it does have one drawback.  Certainly by the 1880s you would be needing full signalling, with interlocking and facing point locks, to control such junctions.  Even in highly educated locations, it's probably a bit much to expect the vicar's wife to operate a load of points and signals just to ensure her train home will stop for her?!

 

And that rather negates the point this being a wayside platform that is otherwise unstaffed.  In fact with the "long-ish" loop that would result, you could easily need not one but two signal boxes, one for each end.  And the staffing cost suddenly goes dramtically up.   Clearly if the station also had goods facilities, then the box(es) would be justified for that reason.  

 

But why not just have a platform alongside the running line, which trains can sweep through or call at, depending on whether something like that lovely Steven signal is lowered or not?