Improving Ralf's soldering - WAS: Solder on PCB sleepers - interfering with point blades?

[hayfield]

The chap who sold me the solder station stated the higher wattage is there to stop heat draining away when the tip hits the work piece, as you say don't need full power for small jobs, but in and out quickly with a hot iron works best

[jim.snowdon]

18 hours ago, Ralf said:

That's very helpful Jim, hinged blades is something I've not even considered... Working in 4mm:ft (4-SF)

You may find the attached useful. Although it was written for 7mm scale, the principles are easily scaled down for 4mm without it becoming toow fiddly.

 

7mm Stretcher bars.pdf

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

Jim

 

I am no chemist (unlike Mr Carr) and gave the information which was available from C&L as a download when they distributed it

 

I possibly gave the wrong info about the orange flux  "A non corrosive flux for places which cannot be washed (eg Gearboxes, track laying, electrical wiring) the flux burns at a higher temperature than natural resins)

 

In practice I have found using the correct solder and flux gives me the best results, using the wrong materials works but not as well

 

I use Carrs red flux (which is organic) for brass and nickle silver)  Carrs green or London Road models 12% for steel and whitemetal, I use either 60/40 solder wire (not resin cored) and 70 degree solder for whitemetal. These work for me

 

I have attached a scan of the notes/instructions of Carrs fluxes. Notes on Carrs solder on Phoenix website

 

 

Interesting. I hadn't seen anything to indicate that Hubert Carr was a professional chemist, although I would agree that he was a good salesman. I long remember him as putting it about, as if on good authority, that lead/tin solder would soon be illegal and that you should obtain supplies of the (legal) lead free solder from him. Lead/tin solder isn't illegal, and is the only solder that should be used joints that have previously been soldered using such solder. It is also used for military work, as the lead free solder has certain undesirable characteristics.

 

There is nothing wrong with cored 60/40 solder either - it works just as well and is easy to obtain at sensible prices from suppliers of electronics components.

 

Jim

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Interesting. I hadn't seen anything to indicate that Hubert Carr was a professional chemist, although I would agree that he was a good salesman. I long remember him as putting it about, as if on good authority, that lead/tin solder would soon be illegal and that you should obtain supplies of the (legal) lead free solder from him. Lead/tin solder isn't illegal, and is the only solder that should be used joints that have previously been soldered using such solder. It is also used for military work, as the lead free solder has certain undesirable characteristics.

 

There is nothing wrong with cored 60/40 solder either - it works just as well and is easy to obtain at sensible prices from suppliers of electronics components.

 

Jim

 

Jim

 

Never met him, this is what I was told by one of the previous C&L owners, who I guess was told the same by the person he bought the business from. The products I use work and even after all these years they still are very popular. 

 

I don't mind perhaps paying a bit more for products I prefer using providing the results are good

[Siberian Snooper]

I have used a similar technique for making tie bars.

 

There was a lot of hype about all solder going lead free at the start of the implementation of the HSE regulations and substances hazardous to health.

 

 

[gordon s]

Must be me then, as I don’t use a separate flux at all. Clean the surfaces with a scratch pen, use a clean iron and plenty of heat plus a good quality multi core solder.

 

Always heat the material at the joint first and then take the solder to the heated joint. I’m literally talking seconds, which is why you need a high heat to get the temperature in the immediate joint area high without spreading the heat into other areas. Just make sure the joint is bright and shiny and never move the parts until the solder has gone off.

 

This works for me, but I’m sure you all have your own favourite ways that provide similar results...

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by gordon s

[Ralf]

6 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

There is nothing wrong with cored 60/40 solder either - it works just as well

 

Seeing as @jim.snowdon and @gordon s get good results with multi-core I thought I'd have a play while waiting for my Red Flux from Carrs. See results below, which I used Carrs Orange Flux & 60/40 Multicore solder - figured belt & braces and so on... Mostly happy with the results

 

 

Although when I came to remove the track from the template it all went horribly wrong - the 1mm double sided tape I've used intended for repairs to mobile phones has quite some grip!! 

 

I shall be back with more photos of my results with red flux and once I've considered tie bars more deeply. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond and give helpful advise. 

 

Ralf

 

[gordon s]

I buy a low tack double sided tape which is so much better. I’ll have a dig round tomorrow so get some clues where it came from. Probably Amazon, so you may be in luck....

Edited April 21, 2020 by gordon s

[roythebus]

Ha, that soldering looks a lot better. 

 

I sometimes use prit stick to hold the track down to the template or thin strips of double sided tape.

[jim.snowdon]

29 minutes ago, Ralf said:

 

Seeing as @jim.snowdon and @gordon s get good results with multi-core I thought I'd have a play while waiting for my Red Flux from Carrs. See results below, which I used Carrs Orange Flux & 60/40 Multicore solder - figured belt & braces and so on... Mostly happy with the results

 

 

Although when I came to remove the track from the template it all went horribly wrong - the 1mm double sided tape I've used intended for repairs to mobile phones has quite some grip!! 

 

I shall be back with more photos of my results with red flux and once I've considered tie bars more deeply. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond and give helpful advise. 

 

Ralf

 

It's looking better, but it looks like either you are being too sparing with the solder, or the flux, or both (all part of the learning process). Looking at the inside of the far rail, the solder is barely coming through under the rail - what you should be aiming for is a neat bead of solder just visible at the inner edge of the rail, over the full width of the sleeper. On the outside of the near rail, the soldering is certainly a lot tidier, but the ideal is a visible fillet of solder covering both the sleeper and the foot of the rail, as on the fourth sleeper from the left. The fifth and sixth look rather lacking, as if the solder has wetted the copperclad, but not the rail.

 

It reminds me of the instructor who taught me to weld. His words were, more or less, by Wednesday, you will be getting thoroughly p****d off because it will seem like you can't get a good weld. Then it will click, and by Friday you will be wondering what all the fuss was about. Building track is a bit like that; not quite as difficult, but there will come a moment when it all starts to work and from then on you will not look back.

 

Jim

[Michael Edge]

Don't try to pull the track off the paper, turn it over and peel the paper off the track - low tack tape probably won't hold the sleepers well enough.

[hayfield]

I cut the double sided tape into thin 2-3 mm strips and lay a strip down each side, I buy cheap quality tape as its just temporary strength that's required. to remove brush white spirit on to the tape and allow to soak in as this weakens the glue

 

Your soldering skills look better, I only solder one side, but if you brush flux on to both sides the solder will flow.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Another vote for PrittStick (or even better the poundshop five tubes for a quid version).

Unless you're using a thermic lance, plenty strong enough.

 

Mike.

[Andy Reichert]

 

Have you tried putting your longest wheelbase loco onto this turnout? It looks a little tight if you intend to run small 6 coupled shunters. And using inset track is likely to make the usuable radii even tighter.

 

Andy

[Ralf]

13 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Don't try to pull the track off the paper, turn it over and peel the paper off the track - low tack tape probably won't hold the sleepers well enough.

 

Ah! Of course I was being especially daft, thanks @Michael Edge it makes FAR more sense your way, I somehow without thinking just went to lift it off! 

 

 

7 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

Have you tried putting your longest wheelbase loco onto this turnout? It looks a little tight if you intend to run small 6 coupled shunters.

 

Thanks Andy, I have now has a Oxford Janus and a Bachmann USA tank run through it ok - admittedly once I'd butchered one point blade and added a check rail! Although seeing as it's going in the bin anyway it was sacrificial! 

 

 

23 hours ago, roythebus said:

I sometimes use prit stick to hold the track down

 

Thanks @roythebus and @Enterprisingwestern I shall try Pritt Stick with tomorrows next play... 

 

Cheers

Ralf

 

[Ralf]

On 21/04/2020 at 22:09, jim.snowdon said:

It reminds me of the instructor who taught me to weld. His words were, more or less, by Wednesday, you will be getting thoroughly p****d off because it will seem like you can't get a good weld. Then it will click, and by Friday you will be wondering what all the fuss was about. Building track is a bit like that; not quite as difficult, but there will come a moment when it all starts to work and from then on you will not look back.

 

Thanks Jim, kinda feel this attempt is much better but only using 60/40 leaded solder, no extra flux and pritt stick! 

 

Comments please on this lot folks think it's showing some potential! 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Ralf

 

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

I think you have got the hang of it. That's much better.

 

Jim