East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Daddyman]

I understand what you mean about the corner and the double beading, Chas. Note that the sides do and don't bow out from the ends - the top part of the sides is actually flat, but is set at an angle from the vertical; the lower part of the sides then bends in to get back to where they started from. I'm sure you've realised all this. 

 

Re the frame to the etch, I think it might it might prevent you rolling the sides properly as it's thicker than they are - you could, though, leave the top one without that happening. If you're worried about the fragility of the sides after rolling, yes, that's legitimate, but you can just solder strips of scrap across the apertures to remain there through the building process until the sides are secured by the floor - as people often do on cab apertures on steam locos (and you yourself have possibly done?). 

[Chas Levin]

42 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

I understand what you mean about the corner and the double beading, Chas. Note that the sides do and don't bow out from the ends - the top part of the sides is actually flat, but is set at an angle from the vertical; the lower part of the sides then bends in to get back to where they started from. I'm sure you've realised all this. 

 

Yes, I'd seen that point about the straight upper sections being angled outwards, such that the lower curve rejoins the vertical: quite an elegant arrangement, I thought. Modelling it accurately will be a challenge, but very satisfying if I can do it.

 

46 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

Re the frame to the etch, I think it might it might prevent you rolling the sides properly as it's thicker than they are - you could, though, leave the top one without that happening. 

 

Good point - I hadn't thought about the thickness of that frame being an issue, including where it runs down the two ends. Well, the support of that thinnest middle panelled section is my main concern and that would still be helped by just the top piece.

 

49 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

If you're worried about the fragility of the sides after rolling, yes, that's legitimate, but you can just solder strips of scrap across the apertures to remain there through the building process until the sides are secured by the floor - as people often do on cab apertures on steam locos (and you yourself have possibly done?). 

 

Amazing: in the early hours of this morning, when my alarm went off just before 6, I realised I'd been lying half awake, thinking about that very point - that I could temporarily solder pieces of scrap etch across the openings - and as I stumbled around, turning off the alarm, putting on my slippers and dressing gown, I thought that I must jot it down, otherwise I'd forget I'd had the idea... and you can guess what happened to that plan!

No, I've never done that before, but now you've reminded me of it, it'll be happening here soon: thank you!

[Daddyman]

4 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

early hours of this morning... lying half awake, thinking about [model trains]

 

Ah, you too. With me it was "No, I have to move that vee hanger half a mill along the solebar; I can't live with it." 

[Jon4470]

For completeness, fourth option would be to take off each end of the supporting fret. That would leave top and bottom still attached to the side. This way the fret does not provide any increased resistance to the bending. 
 

Personally, I’d see if option 1 works first. Two reasons for that. I’m cautious by nature and, I have a set of rollers which would take away the need to tape edges etc.

 

 

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

For completeness, fourth option would be to take off each end of the supporting fret. That would leave top and bottom still attached to the side. This way the fret does not provide any increased resistance to the bending. 
 

Personally, I’d see if option 1 works first. Two reasons for that. I’m cautious by nature and, I have a set of rollers which would take away the need to tape edges etc.

 

 

Hm... I had thought about rolling bars. I don't have a set but I have thought at various times they might be worthwhile. What length do you have Jon, and where did you buy them? And - most relevantly - can they be used to impart a very mild curve like the one we're considering here? I ask because I thought they were really for much sharper curves.

And yes, there's the fourth option: but I think David's right about the frame area being thicker than the half-etched areas, so that leaving that strip along the bottom might still cause issues.

 

Still interested in the rolling bars though...🤔

Edited November 24, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

On 23/11/2023 at 21:17, micklner said:

Chas,

       Have you tried to ask the builder of the one in the Worsley built Sentinel photograph, of his bending method?.

 

I had a reply back from the builder of the Sentinel model pictured on Worsley's site, Mick: he confirmed that he didn't put a tumblehome or turnunder into the sides of that model at all, so the apparently flat sides in the photo really are flat. He said he didn't think it detracted noticeably from the appearance of the model and in all fairness, I think he's right to a large extent.

For those - like us, on here, discussing them - who look at details at this level, a missing body curve may seem like a significant omission but in the general scheme of things, it's a still beautiful looking model!

[WFPettigrew]

16 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

My three options are:

At least the tumblehome seems to be as close to straight as makes not much  difference in 4mm?  So you are only really needing to introduce the curve that takes the the bottom of the tumblehome round to the solebar ie the turnunder?

 

Just thinking that the bottom should be "easier"* to roll into a curve than the top which is largely fresh air.  

 

* Relatively.  Possibly with the complexity of the sort of relativity that Einstein was into. 

[micklner]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

I had a reply back from the builder of the Sentinel model pictured on Worsley's site, Mick: he confirmed that he didn't put a tumblehome or turnunder into the sides of that model at all, so the apparently flat sides in the photo really are flat. He said he didn't think it detracted noticeably from the appearance of the model and in all fairness, I think he's right to a large extent.

For those - like us, on here, discussing them - who look at details at this level, a missing body curve may seem like a significant omission but in the general scheme of things, it's a still beautiful looking model!

I will happily admit I have never even noticed any Tumblehome prior to you mentioning it. None on my Nucast version!!  and after painting will it be visible from any normal distance ?

Good luck with the build , a lot of interesting detail have been found , well done.

[Jon4470]

13 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Hm... I had thought about rolling bars. I don't have a set but I have thought at various times they might be worthwhile. What length do you have Jon, and where did you buy them? And - most relevantly - can they be used to impart a very mild curve like the one we're considering here? I ask because I thought they were really for much sharper curves.

And yes, there's the fourth option: but I think David's right about the frame area being thicker than the half-etched areas, so that leaving that strip along the bottom might still cause issues.

 

Still interested in the rolling bars though...🤔

 

 

I bought my rollers from this source….advert is from 2019 Model Railway Journal.
 

 

I ‘m not sure if he still advertises (and supplies) but might be worth checking out an MRJ if you are ever in a newsagent.

I bought the 10” version.

 

The pressure applied is very controllable so, yes, they can be used to impart a very gentle curvature. Sometimes I just use the rollers to hold the piece in question, so that I can form the curve by hand, thus using one of the rollers as the former. 
 

I generally use them to form my carriage sides. I’d agree that varying metal thicknesses can create some variation in the curvature. Cardboard packing may be a good way to prevent this. It’s something that I’ll try next time. 

 

[Chas Levin]

15 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

At least the tumblehome seems to be as close to straight as makes not much  difference in 4mm?  So you are only really needing to introduce the curve that takes the the bottom of the tumblehome round to the solebar ie the turnunder?

 

Just thinking that the bottom should be "easier"* to roll into a curve than the top which is largely fresh air.  

 

* Relatively.  Possibly with the complexity of the sort of relativity that Einstein was into. 

 

Agreed, it's not a major feature, but I'd still like to have it in there.

 

(And loving your work with 'relatively' and 'relativity' there, Neil! 😁)

[Chas Levin]

13 hours ago, micklner said:

I will happily admit I have never even noticed any Tumblehome prior to you mentioning it. None on my Nucast version!!  and after painting will it be visible from any normal distance ?

Good luck with the build , a lot of interesting detail have been found , well done.

Actually Mick, the Nu-Cast castings I have definitely show the curvature to the lower section - I posted pictures showing it on page 45 of this thread. Are yours different and flat-sided?

[Chas Levin]

11 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

 

I bought my rollers from this source….advert is from 2019 Model Railway Journal.
 

 

I ‘m not sure if he still advertises (and supplies) but might be worth checking out an MRJ if you are ever in a newsagent.

I bought the 10” version.

 

The pressure applied is very controllable so, yes, they can be used to impart a very gentle curvature. Sometimes I just use the rollers to hold the piece in question, so that I can form the curve by hand, thus using one of the rollers as the former. 
 

I generally use them to form my carriage sides. I’d agree that varying metal thicknesses can create some variation in the curvature. Cardboard packing may be a good way to prevent this. It’s something that I’ll try next time. 

 

 

Thanks Jon, I thought perhaps you had the GW ones. I was at the Warley show today and talked to a couple of people about them and they do seem like the best option, so I'll call him on Monday and see if they're still available...

 

Very nice to chat to @Compound2632, @jwealleans and @gr.king - Graeme, hopefully catch you next time when you're not in mid-demo, but I meant to say too that it was also fascinating to see some of the models in your display case that I'd watched being built online and not yet seen in reality, in particular the GNR 174, which looks even more impressive in reality than it did online!

[micklner]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Actually Mick, the Nu-Cast castings I have definitely show the curvature to the lower section - I posted pictures showing it on page 45 of this thread. Are yours different and flat-sided?

I have no idea !! I will have a look today. GW Rollers are recomended go for the 10 inch version far more useful, the Wheel Puller however is dire!!

Edited November 26, 2023 by micklner

[Chas Levin]

On 26/11/2023 at 08:55, micklner said:

I have no idea !! I will have a look today. GW Rollers are recomended go for the 10 inch version far more useful, the Wheel Puller however is dire!!

Thanks Mick; I'd already realised I'd need to go for the 10" rollers, because the Sentinel side is about 9" so the 6" rollers won't do at all!

I just read though that someone had recommended the 6" because the 10" flex a little in the middle, which it was claimed can affect the straightness of materials: have you - or @Jon4470 - ever found that?

 

The wheel puller is the only one I so far have and I have found it can work but it takes some very careful manoeuvering to keep the centre shaft central to the axle end while you start the axle extraction, until the end of the shaft is inside the wheel boss. I am on the lookout for pullers that are easier to use - any recommendations please?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

I have never considered that the rollers might actually flex. I suppose that it’s possible….but the rollers are pretty substantial steel. Thing is, 6” rollers won’t do sides in 4mm….so even if there is deflection, what choice is there?

 

The pressure is applied by adjusting each end separately. It’s perfectly possible to get uneven pressure at each end because the adjustments have not been equal. This will create an uneven bend….you know how I know this🙂. Equally, it is important to feed the piece in square to the rollers….otherwise the curvature is at an angle. Useful for forming a taper boiler maybe, but not for carriage sides.

 

I tend to start gently and gradually adjust the pressure until I get the curvature that I need. For the level of curvature on the sides I don’t think I’ve seen much work hardening caused by several passes through the roller. Sometimes I adjust/fettle the final curve using finger pressure applied to curve the piece (around the roller). The bottom edge of the piece can usually be held between the rollers to help with this.

 

I don’t think that rollers are perfect. But they are much easier (for me) than rolling by hand. 
 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Jon4470

[Bucoops]

The advantage of adjusting each end is for when rolling taper boilers and similar. Fortunately not to many of those in the LNER world though (A1/A3 is an example)!

[Chas Levin]

59 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

I have never considered that the rollers might actually flex. I suppose that it’s possible….but the rollers are pretty substantial steel. Thing is, 6” rollers won’t do sides in 4mm….so even if there is deflection, what choice is there?

 

The pressure is applied by adjusting each end separately. It’s perfectly possible to get uneven pressure at each end because the adjustments have not been equal. This will create an uneven bend….you know how I know this🙂. Equally, it is important to feed the piece in square to the rollers….otherwise the curvature is at an angle. Useful for forming a taper boiler maybe, but not for carriage sides.

 

I tend to start gently and gradually adjust the pressure until I get the curvature that I need. For the level of curvature on the sides I don’t think I’ve seen much work hardening caused by several passes through the roller. Sometimes I adjust/fettle the final curve using finger pressure applied to curve the piece (around the roller). The bottom edge of the piece can usually be held between the rollers to help with this.

 

I don’t think that rollers are perfect. But they are much easier (for me) than rolling by hand.

 

Interesting: thanks Jon! Glad to hear you've never seen flexing. There do seem to be mixed views on this tool, between here and elsewhere, but I'm definitely curious enough now to get a set and try them out! They're not cheap, but neither are they astronomical and I have plenty of experience of finding ways to use tools that work for me: they're bound to come in handy in the future...

[Chas Levin]

46 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

The advantage of adjusting each end is for when rolling taper boilers and similar. Fortunately not to many of those in the LNER world though (A1/A3 is an example)!

 

Useful point Rich: guess who has a Brassmasters / Martin Finney A1 kit in the pile, destined to become Sir Frederick Banbury?

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Useful point Rich: guess who has a Brassmasters / Martin Finney A1 kit in the pile, destined to become Sir Frederick Banbury?

 

Ditto - although not decide what identity it will be yet :)

[micklner]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thansk Mick; I'd already realised I'd need to go for the 10" rollers, because the Sentinel side is about 9" so the 6" rollers won't do at all!

I just read though that someone had recommended the 6" because the 10" flex a little in the middle, which it was claimed can affect the straightness of materials: have you - or @Jon4470 - ever found that?

 

The wheel puller is the only one I so far have and I have found it can work but it takes some very careful manoeuvering to keep the centre shaft central to the axle end while you start the axle extraction, until the end of the shaft is inside the wheel boss. I am on the lookout for pullers that are easier to use - any recommendations please?

Have a look on Ali Express very good prices for lotsa bits including Motors etc.

GW Rollers flexing? , never noticed any issues. Obviously the thicker/harder the metal is the more chance of it happening .

[Chas Levin]

Thank you to everyone who has offered advice and suggestions on curves and bends: I spoke to George Watts of GW Models this morning and there's a 10" mini-roller with my name on it somewhere in West Sussex - it'll be an early Christmas present!

 

I'll be able to discover for myself whether or not it'll do these particula turnunder and cab end curves well... or whether it won't and I'll still end up doing them with a length of copper pipe and a mouse mat!

 

The ability to watch and control the bending process is very appealing: although I've built several brass coaches and produced tumblehomes and turnunders that look perfectly fine - at any rate from normal viewing distances - I've always found producing them a fairly uncomfortable process, because of the inability to know what's really happening to the metal as I press down into the matt or foam with the pipe or rod. Rollers should allow considerably more visibilty - and it's a new toy to play with! 😁

 

While I wait for them, I intend to go back and finish the bogies. I'd previously thought they'd be best done once the underframe gubbins was installed, in case their structures needed amending for clearance, but it occurred to me the other day that I have that the wrong way round, in that there isn't much variation possible in the lengths and widths of the bogies, so the underframe fittings are what might need to be modified to accommodate swing arcs and therefore there's no reason not to complete the bogies by adding the cosmetic outer frames, sides, brakes etc.

[gr.king]

On 25/11/2023 at 23:05, Chas Levin said:

 

Thanks Jon, I thought perhaps you had the GW ones. I was at the Warley show today and talked to a couple of people about them and they do seem like the best option, so I'll call him on Monday and see if they're still available...

 

Very nice to chat to @Compound2632, @jwealleans and @gr.king - Graeme, hopefully catch you next time when you're not in mid-demo, but I meant to say too that it was also fascinating to see some of the models in your display case that I'd watched being built online and not yet seen in reality, in particular the GNR 174, which looks even more impressive in reality than it did online!

Nice to meet you at last too Chas, albeit only briefly on this occasion.

[micklner]

On 26/11/2023 at 08:55, micklner said:

I have no idea !! I will have a look today. GW Rollers are recomended go for the 10 inch version far more useful, the Wheel Puller however is dire!!

Had a look today at the Sentinel Tumblehome, no more than 1mm or even less and hardly noticeable under paint and varnish.

Edited November 28, 2023 by micklner

[jwealleans]

Chas, was it you asking me about GN wagon lettering?   I had forgotten at the time but Old Time Workshop do a sheet.  i found one on H & A Models' stand on the Sunday.

[Compound2632]

Just now, jwealleans said:

Chas, was it you asking me about GN wagon lettering?   I had forgotten at the time but Old Time Workshop do a sheet.  i found one on H & A Models' stand on the Sunday.

 

Yes, both pre-1898:

 

 

and post-1898:

 

 

styles!