statues to remove and statues to reinstate

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, Fenman said:

 

I'd agree with most of your points -- but I don't understand why you apparently insist that all statues must remain exactly where they were first placed. There are lots of examples of statues moved for entirely prosaic reasons (Eros in Piccadilly was shifted a bit sideways, to make traffic management simpler). Why can't a statue now serve a more useful and interesting role in a museum or a museum garden, where more of its history can be explored?

 

I don't think I have insisted that they must remain exactly where they're first placed, although I'd need convincing to shift them and it shouldn't be undertaken all that lightly. I do think we can learn more when the past is still part of our ordinary surroundings than when it's been put in to a museum; in the Bristol case a statue to the people Colston abused facing him would achieve that better IMO.

 

There's certainly a case to be made for the museum garden and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the idea at all. I'd just caution that it shouldn't be done on a whim, that a lot of thought should be given to it first; I don't want us to be viewed in the future of the sort of alterations we sometimes grumble about previous times doing, casually destroying history and its context to satisfy opinions of moment.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Reorte

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, Fenman said:

 

I very much hope that not wishing to celebrate slavery is not a "flavour of the week".

 

Paul

Regrettably what is currently happening in the form of riots is I hope no more than flavour of the week. (and I sincerely hope no longer).

 

No doubt if we are not simply going to regard enslavement of people , including those snatched from their homes in England by foreign slave traders in the 17th century, or those shipped from their homes in Britain to the American colonies as 'bonded servants' (i.e. slaves in all but name) prior to 1776 as being relevant  but are going to apply racial distinctions when talking about it we are selling ourselves very short of reality and common humanity.  Hence my attitude toe the current appalling behaviour by a section of the British population who appear to have very limited knowledge of history and lack concern beyond a very narrow part of it.

[Fenman]

2 minutes ago, Torper said:

So presumably statures of George Washington (a major slave-owner ) and Thomas Jefferson (600+ slaves) should be torn down?  Not to mention Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Tyler, Polk and Taylor, all of whom were presidents who owned slaves while in office.  Oh, and on the day that slavery was abolished in Britain 46000 Britons were slave owners and all received compensation.  Better start searching out their statues and memorials.

 

What;s going on now is censorship by the mob.  One can argue that it's "good censorship" although that strikes me as a contradiction in terms.

 

History's a funny thing.

 

A few years back, I realised it was some decades since I'd looked around Kensington Palace. I had a day out, bought my ticket, then was told that you could no longer just wander around -- you had to take part in a guided tour.

 

Our party of 20 or so set off, marshalled by a jolly-sounding gel, who immediately launched into the detailed family history of Queen Victoria. In every room she told us an anecdote about some branch of the family. The crowd I was with was wildly appreciative -- the majority were American, judging by the accents. They asked enthusiastic questions, and were clearly fascinated by a particularly lengthy story about the Duke and Duchess of Teck. Our splendid guide told us all about their children, pointing out happy family images, without once mentioning that the Duke of Teck was one of the most notorious homosexuals in Victorian England.

 

We concluded the tour, everyone apparently happy and the Americans passing over generous tips. I was left in a state of wonder that she had managed to complete the entire tour without once mentioning the name of an architect.

 

What history? Whose version?

 

As it hapoens, I think the National Trust, for example, is now doing a rather more rounded job at many of its stately homes in telling us where the money came from to build the thing, what the conditions were like for all the inhabitants of the estate (not just the rich family), and so on. That seems to me to be more balanced and, actually, more interesting.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

I'm ok with statues that reflect a disreputable past being resited and an intelligent commentary being attached to the plinth in its new location.  Those who feel aggrieved by the presence of the statue need not see it in everyday life, and its then an educational resource.

 

BUT

 

I would not replace the statue once removed with a more "politically acceptable" image to appease the mob.

[runs as required]

Doing A level History back in the 1950s, we had a history teacher who also was a railway enthusiast. 

We always had to anticipate a "waffly" question on 'History Theory' which you couldn't swot dates and battles for.

He told us "the present is just the momentary point of contact of a steel wheel on a steel rail. The future is something unknown lying  ahead that has to be anticipated, but the long line of the past behind us can help us cope with the road ahead"

 

I plagarised his quote and achieved my best A level mark !

Edited June 10, 2020 by runs as required
spelling

[Fenman]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

...

No doubt if we are not simply going to regard enslavement of people , including those snatched from their homes in England by foreign slave traders in the 17th century, or those shipped from their homes in Britain to the American colonies as 'bonded servants' (i.e. slaves in all but name) prior to 1776 as being relevant  but are going to apply racial distinctions when talking about it we are selling ourselves very short of reality and common humanity.  Hence my attitude toe the current appalling behaviour by a section of the British population who appear to have very limited knowledge of history and lack concern beyond a very narrow part of it.

 

That I'd agree with. The traditional "kings and queens"-type history that was endemic in many schools does us a profound disservice. It's also, today, ridiculously partial (endless repetition of the rise of Nazi Germany; nothing about the very foundation of England, for example. I don't know of any other country which so completely ignores its own formation in its school history. And there's usually almost nothing on the history leading to the Treaty of Union between England (sic) and Scotland).

 

Slavery was a massively important economic force in the development of the contemporary UK. Slavery as a phenomenon (including forms of bondedness within this country, as well as overseas) has been almost always present in our society.

 

A beautiful rose can grow from a dungheap. But we're only fooling ourselves if we pretend the dungheap never existed. Personally, I'm not keen on "historical" statues which show only the rose and ignore the dungheap. That does a disservice to all of the victims, and leads to misunderstandings of the reality of history which can catch us out today.

 

Paul 

 

 

[alastairq]

7 minutes ago, Fenman said:

Slavery was a massively important economic force in the development of the contemporary UK. Slavery as a phenomenon (including forms of bondedness within this country, as well as overseas) has been almost always present in our society.

 Not just ''our'' society, either.

The history of places like Africa, Asia, [Greece, as an example closer to home?] is littered with rampant slavery.

 

I am minded to consider that these so-called 'abhorrences'  are merely an excuse for wanton destruction by the very few...

[rovex]

I'm waiting for the first of our modern image members to build a model of an offensive statue being pulled down by a rioting mob. Perhaps with a motor underneath so you can see the statue fall over and over again, DCC control anyone

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, rovex said:

I'm waiting for the first of our modern image members to build a model of an offensive statue being pulled down by a rioting mob. Perhaps with a motor underneath so you can see the statue fall over and over again, DCC control anyone

 If you've got a lot of space you could try building a model of Kings Cross and include a statue with a duck... (taking us back to the OP).

Edited June 10, 2020 by Reorte

[Nearholmer]

Angry mob vents righteous fury on symbolic pieces of stone and bronze, but otherwise really doesn’t cause a lot of damage.

 

Statues symbolise things, like who society at large wishes to lionise, and the tide changed - a good part of society doesn’t want to lionise slave owners/traders now.

 

As The Mayor of Bristol said, the appropriate place for such statues is probably in a museum, not symbolically stood in streets to symbolise “this is the sort of chap we all think was good”.

 

Statues have been erected, demolished, relegated to unvisited parks, got rediscovered and moved back to prominence, put in museums, melted-down, recast etc since the dawn of time.
 

Desired symbols change as society changes, and the pulling down of statues is a supremely symbolic act.

 

It would be nicer if changes in public mood could be dealt with fully through debate, discussion, democracy etc, but there are moments when the safety-valves blow, and this is one of them. If this is the worst that the venting steam does, that says we live in a decent society and that even “a mob” is capable of making smart choices and undertaking symbolic acts ....... this sure as heck isn’t wanton destruction.

 

I don’t read it all as wanting to expunge history, but to re-balance it a bit. Nobody is asking that we pretend slavery out of existence; I think the demand is to remember it “in the round”, including those who were enslaved, and take on board the implications that a history of slavery has for continuing racial discrimination.

 

But, there is also a bit of coat-tailing the US, where the history and current politics are materially different., and it is to be hoped that neither side in this debate ‘digs in’ behind the fracture lines that have been drawn in the US, because we aren’t the US.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Ohmisterporter]

If statues are going to be taken down it has to be done safely. A mob hauling them down with ropes is not the way to go. The statue of Colston came down with a large chunk of masonry that could have shattered when it hit the ground sending shrapnel into the crowd. 

In the USA a slave owner named Patrick Henry made a famous quote, "Give me liberty or give me death". He had a narrow view as to what liberty meant. Even so, he and his quote are still revered in the country.

[Bernard Lamb]

3 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Slave trading and then slavery was supposedly abolished in our country some two hundred years ago but still thrives. It would be good to see some of the current interest and energy focussed on modern slavery.

In Hertfordshire the police spend a lot of time investigating modern slavery and are doing an excellent job. Let us hope that the current situation leads to the subject receiving more attention as it is not widely reported in the main stream media.

Bernard

[Metr0Land]

2 hours ago, rovex said:

I'm waiting for the first of our modern image members to build a model of an offensive statue being pulled down by a rioting mob. Perhaps with a motor underneath so you can see the statue fall over and over again, DCC control anyone

 

Due to C-19 there will be no Great Model Railway Challenge this year but maybe a team next year might have a go at something like that?

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

In Hertfordshire the police spend a lot of time investigating modern slavery and are doing an excellent job

 

Also in Bedfordshire, but there aren't any statues to Transits, conifer cutting, UPVC fascia and fly tipping that can be torn down in protest.

[JeremyC]

I have been watching Michael Portillo's journey through the Philippines, Malaysia and Singapore. It was noticeable that in these countries that there were still many statues to former colonial governors and that local people were quite prepared to discuss those times and even admit that colonialism had not been totally evil. The attitude was that the colonial era was part of their history and citizens needed to know the influence, good and bad, this had had on the development of the country

The problem in the UK is that there are a significant proportion of the population who will not accept the wrongs of colonialism and refuse to accept responsibility or apologise for the past actions of this country, while at the same time holding grudges against other counties for their actions, even when those incidents were hundreds of years ago.

The incident of the Colston statue could be said to be an illustration of this. According to the news, attempts had been made to erect a plaque describing the source of his wealth, but this had been blocked by the Society of Merchant Venturer's Association a small group of influential people. 

Sadly rioting and mob rule are often the sign that government and society has failed to address serious problems in that society. Martin Luther King said

"And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? ... It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met."

(The quote refers to America, but I think it applies to many countries including the UK)

Edited June 10, 2020 by JeremyC

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, runs as required said:

Doing A level History back in the 1950s, we had a history teacher who also was a railway enthusiast. 

We always had to anticipate a "waffly" question on 'History Theory' which you couldn't swot dates and battles for.

He told us "the present is just the momentary point of contact of a steel wheel on a steel rail. The future is something unknown lying  ahead that has to be anticipated, but the long line of the past behind us can help us cope with the road ahead"

 

I plagarised his quote and achieved my best A level mark !

Ah yes, but because railways were mentioned, you listened!

[Rivercider]

I would have left Colston where he was, but made sure his story was fully explained.

Perhaps he could have been joined by a companion statue, someone like Paul Stephenson spokesman of the Bristol Bus Boycott of 1963.

Bristol Council have been vexed with association with the slave trade for some time. The new built Cabot Circus shopping centre in Bristol opened in 2008, one suggested name was 'Merchants Quarter' which was discarded due to the slavery connection.

 

Oh, and I would have liked to see Gresley get his duck back.

 

cheers

[Mark Saunders]

Dig a little and you will find that most of these great people have feet of clay and will fail with us using today’s standards for yesterday’s people!

[kevinlms]

6 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

 

The problem in the UK is that there are a significant proportion of the population who will not accept the wrongs of colonialism and refuse to accept responsibility or apologise for the past actions of this country, while at the same time holding grudges against other counties for their actions, even when those incidents were hundreds of years ago.

 

The same thing happens worldwide. In Australia, PM John Howard refused to have anything to do with an apology to the Aboriginal people for their mistreatment. Shooting parties were not uncommon for instance, amongst other dreadful things.

 

JH used the excuse that he personally, didn't carry out these actions, so in his opinion there was nothing to apologise for. He ignored the fact, that it was the nation of Australia doing the apologising. Mind you, before he became an MP, he was a lawyer!

[Reorte]

28 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The same thing happens worldwide. In Australia, PM John Howard refused to have anything to do with an apology to the Aboriginal people for their mistreatment. Shooting parties were not uncommon for instance, amongst other dreadful things.

 

JH used the excuse that he personally, didn't carry out these actions, so in his opinion there was nothing to apologise for. He ignored the fact, that it was the nation of Australia doing the apologising. Mind you, before he became an MP, he was a lawyer!

 

This risks stirring things up, but the idea of apologising for things you're not responsible for has never made much sense to me; in that sense I regard nations as being whoever makes the up at the present, so when all those responsible are dead all the people who can meaningfully apologise are gone. As far as the concept of continuity goes, sure, the nation goes on, but the same's true, at a different scale, with families. My family might still be a continuation of my ancestor's family, but I am simply not able to apologise for anything my ancestors did because I was no more responsible for them than anyone else. We're not responsible for the sins of our fathers, and hence can't apologise for them - and have no excuse for holding a grudge against others depending on what their fathers had done.

 

This is not the same as refusing to say that what was done wasn't completely wrong and utterly abhorrent.

[Torper]

53 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

This risks stirring things up, but the idea of apologising for things you're not responsible for has never made much sense to me; in that sense I regard nations as being whoever makes the up at the present, so when all those responsible are dead all the people who can meaningfully apologise are gone..........This is not the same as refusing to say that what was done wasn't completely wrong and utterly abhorrent.

 

You beat me to it - I was just typing a message to say basically what you've just said.  The only point with which I would disagree is that colonialism was completely wrong and absolutely abhorrent, though some of its facets may have been.  In the rush to blame UK for all its supposed evils it tends to be forgotten that many former colonies derived considerable benefits from colonialism, although whether these outweighed the negatives is open to debate.  I do asometimes think that if we'd done all that badly we wouldn't have all these former colonies happy to be in the Commonwealth.

 

DT

Edited June 10, 2020 by Torper

[wasabi]

The slave trade was triangular.  Merchants from Europe (and I think the Portuguese were most prominent) took goods to sell to African kings, who paid for them with slaves - often criminals or prisoners captured in the many wars between different states.  The ships then took the slaves on, mainly to sell to Americans, and bought goods to take back to Europe.  The trade started with Muslims buying slaves to ship east.  It is actually a very complex history and simplistic actions like throwing statues into harbours do nothing to aid our understanding of what went on.  Better to start with a bit of serious research.

[Nearholmer]

"Better to start with a bit of serious research"

 

Ah yes, let all those who have current grievances (which is what this is really about) retire quietly to libraries to pore over historical documents; that'll grab attention, galvanise debate, and achieve the change that is sought!!

 

Or, much more likely, not.

 

People are angry about the slave trade, yes, but what they are really, really angry about is that two centuries after it ceased to be legal in this country there is still not effective equality between people of different racial backgrounds. 

 

Pulling down a statue is a symbolic act, designed (and I'm suggesting possibly pre-meditated, rather than the product of spur-of-the-moment mobbery) to draw attention to current problems. 

 

The current problems in the US are far worse (different history since abolition; failure to eradicate the white-supremacist mindset), but it would be delusional to believe that everything in the UK garden is roses and that nobody has anything to get angry about.

 

[Ohmisterporter]

Even a bit of basic research would perhaps have prevented the defacing of statues of Abraham Lincoln and Ghandi in Washington. On the other hand, elements of the mob just see statues of people and feel safe in assuming they must have done something bad at some time in their lives so deserve to be attacked. 

[maico]

6 hours ago, Torper said:

So presumably statures of George Washington (a major slave-owner ) and Thomas Jefferson (600+ slaves) should be torn down?  Not to mention Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Tyler, Polk and Taylor, all of whom were presidents who owned slaves while in office.  Oh, and on the day that slavery was abolished in Britain 46000 Britons were slave owners and all received compensation.  Better start searching out their statues and memorials.

 

What;s going on now is censorship by the mob.  One can argue that it's "good censorship" although that strikes me as a contradiction in terms.

 

The Woke brigade would need a lot of explosives to deal with half the carvings of Mount Rushmore..