The Night Mail

[Winslow Boy]

6 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Beheading unfaithful queens and traitors and shooting indecisive admirals uses to be done “pour encourager les autres”. Or “discourager” perhaps. 
 

Doesn’t work on small animals that wreck your garden or field though. If it did, I would have a string of shot tree-rats (a k a grey squirrels hanging on my back fence. 

Not a relation of Admiral Byng by any chance.

[SM42]

Sticking with tradition, Mrs SM42 has decided that cooking needs doing ready for tomorrow, so it looks like I won't be doing the kitchen. 

 

Like her mother I tell yer, always bring where you need to be. 

 

 

Andy

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Winslow Boy said:

I think there's been a good case made for 'our attitude' starting with the shindig at Runnymede- so a thousand years or so. Whereas the 'foreigners' are Jonny come lately's.

"You can horsewhip your Gascony archers/you can torture your Picardy spears/but don't try that game on the Saxon/you'll have the whole brood round your ears".

 

The point about Magna Carta was, and remains that it set the precedent that 

Monarchs ruled by the consent of their subjects. It really wasn't about democracy, but about individual rights. 

 

The Cromwellian revolution and subsequent Glorious Revolution finalised that, definitively ending the concept of Divine Rule. 

 

These were not European concepts. The French underwent a revolution and subsequent period if warfare and terror as extreme a anything displayed by the Soviets, not much more than two hundred years ago. 

 

More recently, I was working in Former East Germany in 2010/11 and it occurred to me that this was an area which had held its first free, democratic election as recently as 1993

[Winslow Boy]

2 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

"You can horsewhip your Gascony archers/you can torture your Picardy spears/but don't try that game on the Saxon/you'll have the whole brood round your ears".

 

The point about Magna Carta was, and remains that it set the precedent that 

Monarchs ruled by the consent of their subjects. It really wasn't about democracy, but about individual rights. 

 

The Cromwellian revolution and subsequent Glorious Revolution finalised that, definitively ending the concept of Divine Rule. 

 

These were not European concepts. The French underwent a revolution and subsequent period if warfare and terror as extreme a anything displayed by the Soviets, not much more than two hundred years ago. 

 

More recently, I was working in Former East Germany in 2010/11 and it occurred to me that this was an area which had held its first free, democratic election as recently as 1993

Like I said we were first. Mind you I don't think we've managed to sort out all the 'wrinkles'. Democracy Rocks.

[Happy Hippo]

19 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Beheading unfaithful queens and traitors and shooting indecisive admirals uses to be done “pour encourager les autres”. Or “discourager” perhaps. 
 

Doesn’t work on small animals that wreck your garden or field though. If it did, I would have a string of shot tree-rats (a k a grey squirrels hanging on my back fence. 

At one stage in the 1950s, there used to be a 2/- bounty on grey squirrel tails.

 

I do have  a recipe for grey squirrel if anyone is interested.

[Tony_S]

10 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

really wasn't about democracy, but about individual rights. 

For barons.

[Winslow Boy]

4 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

For barons.

You say baron I say the orange one. Bananas potatoes they all do the same job. Fill you up.

[Willie Whizz]

18 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

Not a relation of Admiral Byng by any chance.

No, just a student of naval history as my “other hobby”. But that’s the chap all right!

 

And it has to be said, it worked - for the next 200 years or so, aggressive tactics characterised the conduct of Royal Navy admirals and captains, even when the numbers were against them and it might have been more appropriate to be more reticent against hefty odds. I’m only aware of one actual subsequent Court Martial of an admiral for over-caution (Troubridge, 1914) - the precedent was enough. 
 

The really annoying thing, though, is that if Byng had done his job properly then Menorca might still be a British colony and we could be holidaying there without having to change currencies or learn pidgin-Spanish!

[Flanged Wheel]

The family of Admiral Byng are still actively trying to clear his name (or at least they were fifteen days years ago)…

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-byng-idUKHO45269320070314/

 

The MoD said ‘no’…

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/15/military.immigrationpolicy

 

His epitaph is particularly vitriolic:

 

To the perpetual Disgrace
of PUBLICK JUSTICE
The Honble. JOHN BYNG Esqr
Admiral of the Blue
Fell a MARTYR to
POLITICAL PERSECUTION
March 14th in the year 1757 when
BRAVERY and LOYALTY
were Insufficient Securities
For the
Life and Honour
of a
NAVAL OFFICER

 

For the record, I’m not related to him either but I am writing the first comprehensive history of the British Court Martial. 

[Willie Whizz]

Wow, that should be an interesting read!

 

FWIW I’d agree that there’s at least an arguable case that Byng made a convenient scapegoat; certainly executing him went a bit further than the usual precedents for such failure. But that was “justice” in the 1750s …
 

It wouldn’t be the last case of ‘political interference’ in the aftermath of a naval battle either - as recently as World War II there are indications Winston Churchill in 1940-41 wanted to court-martial Admirals. Somerville, Wake-Walker and Tovey, the latter two in connection with the Bismarck chase, and had to be talked out of it once the full facts and rationale for their decisions were known. All have good reputations today still, thankfully. 
 

Conversely the Byng and Troubridge precedents (the latter especially, as it was so very recent) are thought to lie as a significant factor behind why Adm. Cradock in late 1914 took his antiquated and outgunned cruiser squadron into action off Coronel in Chile against the German admiral, Graf von Spee, when realistically he stood no chance and probably knew it. Hundreds died and precisely nothing was achieved. But ‘honour’ was saved; whatever else might be said, no-one ever criticises him for lack of bravery. 

[Flanged Wheel]

Churchill was fond of a good court martial threat… He once threatened Edward VIII (when he was Duke of Windsor) with a court martial if he refused to leave Portugal and return to a British territory. That would have been an amazing case to prosecute!
 

It would make a great play. “The King’s Court Martial”… You could explore all sorts of themes regarding loyalty and honour. I already have my eye on Andrew Scott to play the Duke. He would be excellent!

[monkeysarefun]

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

The chances are it was not the farmer doing it but the official mole catcher for the area.

 

 

Moles are apparently a native UK animal according to google.  If they were treated there like all native animals (including venomous snakes, crocs etc) are here, the mole catcher would be required to relocate them to a place where they are not causing an issue, rather than nailing them to a fence. 

 

 

Edited April 4 by monkeysarefun

[Dave Hunt]

A bit of an uncomfortable day today as since the happy poppy juice the hospital pumped into me has worn off it has become apparent that either a mule has kicked me in the back or someone has been digging big holes there. The exhortations from the medics not to try anything strenuous or twist and turn are proving superfluous as to do any such thing would be too painful anyway but, and here's the big thing, this morning was the second time I can remember (yesterday being the first) in years that getting out of bed did not kick start agonising sciatic pain - hallelujah and thank God for a fine hospital and a top rate spinal surgeon. I even managed a short walk without any problem except some backache and even that should diminish over the next few weeks. In a few days' time I may even manage to put in some workshop time.

 

Dave (AKA happy bunny)

Edited April 4 by Dave Hunt

[DenysW]

30 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

would be required to relocate them to a place where they are not causing an issue

The Dogger Bank?

[monkeysarefun]

9 minutes ago, DenysW said:

The Dogger Bank?

 

 

Nice try,  attempting to get me   to Google "Dogger"  again, I'm not falling for that twice! 

 

 The Uk is definitely no longer  the Enid Blyton happy pixie  place it  got  sold to us  as  down here in my formative years. 

Edited April 4 by monkeysarefun

[Hroth]

33 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

Moles are apparently a native UK animal according to google.  If they were treated there like all native animals (including venomous snakes, crocs etc) are here, the mole catcher would be required to relocate them to a place where they are not causing an issue, rather than nailing them to a fence. 

 

 

 

In the UK, if you catch rats or mice in a "humane" trap, you can't release them alive in a place where they can't cause an issue, you have to kill them yourself. Perhaps moles fall under the same rule.  Then again, nailed to a fence is a place where they can't cause an issue...

 

[Happy Hippo]

33 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

Moles are apparently a native UK animal according to google.  If they were treated there like all native animals (including venomous snakes, crocs etc) are here, the mole catcher would be required to relocate them to a place where they are not causing an issue, rather than nailing them to a fence. 

 

 

I was reading the other day that modern thoughts on animal relocation are not as simple as humans moving to a new town and making new friends.  Relocation doesn't work with Moles.  Once they are out of the locale they were born in, they just cannot adjust and die.  The same with a lot of venomous snakes species.

[Hroth]

3 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

Nice try,  attempting me   to Google "Dogger"  again, I'm not falling for that twice! 

 

 The Uk is definitely no longer  the Enid Blyton happy pixie  place it  got  sold to us  as  down here in my formative years. 

 

Saving you having to google it...

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MXzaVOk_Ydk

 

[Happy Hippo]

4 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

Nice try,  attempting me   to Google "Dogger"  again, I'm not falling for that twice! 

 

 The Uk is definitely no longer  the Enid Blyton happy pixie  place it  got  sold to us  as  down here in my formative years. 

[Hroth]

 

And for completeness..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

8 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I was reading the other day that modern thoughts on animal relocation are not as simple as humans moving to a new town and making new friends.  Relocation doesn't work with Moles.  Once they are out of the locale they were born in, they just cannot adjust and die.  The same with a lot of venomous snakes species.

 

Understandably it can be a case of us arrogantly  thinking we can just move things around willy-nilly without regard for complex territorial issues etc. Speaking purely for Oz snakes though, the Eastern Brown, which is the most commonly encountered deadly snake here , they are nomadic so relocating them is not a problem.

 

When it comes to moles, I am no expert but they are blind so I'm thinking that  they don't know where the f&*&* they are anyway.

Edited April 4 by monkeysarefun

[Happy Hippo]

16 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

In the UK, if you catch rats or mice in a "humane" trap, you can't release them alive in a place where they can't cause an issue, you have to kill them yourself. Perhaps moles fall under the same rule.  Then again, nailed to a fence is a place where they can't cause an issue...

 

Since they've already been through either a scissor or tunnel type trap, they are long past caring if they get nailed to a fence.  Although we have to remember that this is a now a practice very much confined to history.

 

We also no longer legally have cock fighting or bear baiting in the UK, nor do we flog human miscreants for minor offences nor hang them for slightly more serious ones..

Edited April 4 by Happy Hippo

[monkeysarefun]

6 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Saving you having to google it...

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MXzaVOk_Ydk

 

Nice try, buddy!

[monkeysarefun]

19 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

We also no longer legally have cock fighting or bear baiting in the UK, 

 

 

Surely you can still give them a bit of a "hows your father!?!" at least,  like the regulations say we can do here?

 

 

Edited April 4 by monkeysarefun

[TheQ]

28 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

Understandably it can be a case of us arrogantly  thinking we can just move things around willy-nilly without regard for complex territorial issues etc. 

Bit like moving Australian magpies.