"Welsh Highland Railway Developments & Progress"?

[Guest Phil]

I'm not sure that I agree that sympathetic and responsible preservation has been uppermost in the mindset of the FR Co when rebuilding of the WHR. I get the impression that hard nosed commercialism and the ideology of running a modern railway but with steam traction hold the upper hand. I'd cite the FR rebuilding of Prince, Linda, Blanche and Molewyn as examples of engineering 'improvements' trumping any preservation ideals.

 

I have to disagree with you Neil.

 

IMHO there really wasn't another option to rebuild the WHR. It has had to be done the "FR way" to get it built and operational. It has to have large modern steam locos on roller bearings, pulling modern, maintenance-friendly rolling stock which is reasonably comfortable rolling stock because that is what the farepayer demands. Ther truth very probably is that the average Joe on his coach trip to the "little Welsh steam train" doesn't want to ride in an old 1897 wooden coach when he can ride in a modern vehicle with a bar and toilet.

 

If Russell were restored to service next week, how many round trips a day would the loco be capable of, and how many days a week ? Assuming "set A" could do three round trips a day that is nearly a hundred miles a day, Three thousand miles a month. How many narrow gauge operations can provide stock to work that sort of mileage ?

 

It would be very nice for the Welsh narrow gauge specialists to see a beautiful replica of the 1921 blah di blah building at Beddgelert, but that sort of stuff costs more than the budget allows. Maybe the future ?

 

I very much understand the passion and soul and quiantness etc is all missing from the WHR, but it is a brand new railway, built on a strict budget and timescale. It is there to shift large numbers of regular Joes through stunning Welsh scenery. We enthusiasts are very much the minority and we have to accept that.

 

 

EDIT

Thanks to pH for pointing out my maths weakness !!!!!

[S.A.C Martin]

I don't think that was Neil's point, Phil. It was the locomotive point he made which has particularly caught my eye.

 

I'd cite the FR rebuilding of Prince, Linda, Blanche and Molewyn as examples of engineering 'improvements' trumping any preservation ideals.

 

Nobody could deny that Linda and Blanche, particularly, have been modified beyond their original design plans quite extensively. They are now tender engines, and not tank engines, which changes the nature of the beast somewhat. It is certainly not "preservation" nor "restoration" but "reinvention", and on that point I think Neil's got it spot on there.

 

I am not saying, mind, that what the FR did to the engines concerned was "wrong" or "bad" - simply stating that I feel Neil is right there, and that it isn't "preservation" or "restoration" so much as "reinvention".

 

The Hunslet Engine Company of Leeds built three 0-4-0 saddle tank locomotives for the Penrhyn Railway between 1882 and 1893. Of very similar design, they were named Charles, Blanche and Linda after members of the Penrhyn family, and for over 60 years they operated the main line slate trains between Port Penrhyn and the quarries.

 

In 1962, Linda and Blanche were purchased by the Ffestiniog Railway where they were to become the mainstay of their locomotive fleet for many years and are still in regular use today. Charles had become unserviceable by this time and was placed on permanent loan to the National Trust and moved to Penrhyn Castle Industrial Railway Museum in a cosmetically restored condition. All three were reunited in 1993 at the Ffestiniog Railway for their 'Hunslet Hundred' gala celebrating the locomotives' centenary.

 

Linda and Blanche have gone through many changes since their move to the Ffestiniog Railway, most notably the addition of tenders, re-profiling of the cab roofs, and the addition of leading pony trucks. Blanche received the most radical changes as she was converted to piston valves and now has the very distinctive round topped valve chests together with a half cab fitted to the tender.

 

My information found here: very informative and shows some comparison shots of the engines Charles and Linda together, albeit in model form!

[James]

I'm not sure that I agree that sympathetic and responsible preservation has been uppermost in the mindset of the FR Co when rebuilding of the WHR. I get the impression that hard nosed commercialism and the ideology of running a modern railway but with steam traction hold the upper hand. I'd cite the FR rebuilding of Prince, Linda, Blanche and Molewyn as examples of engineering 'improvements' trumping any preservation ideals.

IMHO there really wasn't another option to rebuild the WHR. It has had to be done the "FR way" to get it built and operational. It has to have large modern steam locos on roller bearings, pulling modern, maintenance-friendly rolling stock which is reasonably comfortable rolling stock because that is what the farepayer demands. Ther truth very probably is that the average Joe on his coach trip to the "little Welsh steam train" doesn't want to ride in an old 1897 wooden coach when he can ride in a modern vehicle with a bar and toilet.

 

Now I can't really hope to expand on Dutch Master's well reasoned reply, but I think you're both saying very similar things; that the only way forward was in a newer, heavily engineered way but you may be approaching this conclusion from different directions!

 

I think the FR is an organisation which pushes for better engineering standards - did you know that Taliesin is actually slightly larger than the original loco? (Though it is technically a rebuild...!) It makes for a more efficient and easier to operate loco which can share more componets with its double ended siblings as a result too. Not a strictly historically accurrate result but it makes sense in the real world.

 

There's no getting away from the WHR being a modern railway - it has to be otherwise the WHR would destroy the FR for a second time. Senior people involved with the WHR would agree too. This is also why it was important that it wasn't lumbered with massive debts too.

 

I don't think anyone who's seen the new WHR can deny it is an amazing engineering project but it isn't a preserved railway but still a wonderful achievement.

[Adam]

I don't think anyone who's seen the new WHR can deny it is an amazing engineering project: but it isn't a preserved railway but still a wonderful achievement.

 

I think that sentence is the single most sensible and pertinent contribution to [this page] of this thread. What your opinion is of that situation is should be a separate question. Here's mine:

 

I'm not, in railway heritage terms, much of a romantic and can't find much about the state of the old WHR to be nostalgic about in any case. I might, had I been about, have gone to look at it, but I would probably rather have walked and absorbed it that way than ridden on it. At least, not more than once. The WHR, when it tried the tourist market the first time round, suffered from the very things that have been identified above: a long, slow journey with poor and shabby facilities. That isn't something I find attractive for it's own sake. It's little wonder that it didn't work sufficiently well for it to survive the war.

 

The early days of 'preservation' operation (in parentheses here because it's a term with a lot of baggage in this context) on the Ffestiniog were a different situation - the railway was there to preserve, and later, to develop. Pictures the grass grown but bustling Tan-y-Bwlch in the '60s look much more 'relaxed' - and probably pleasant - than it does today, and I would love to have seen and travelled on it when it was like that, but I suspect that the original proprietors and engineers of that railway, who were unabashedly businessmen and mechanical innovators first, would see something more akin to their own ideals in the modern Ffestiniog, and, by extension, the Welsh Highland.

 

Adam

[lankyphil]

Whatever way you look at it, I think that the WHR are always going to need the big strong Locos (Garretts and the SAR 2-8-0s) because as the name suggests, it runs throught the Welsh HIGHLANDS?

 

Whilst it is nice to see the original stock for the line running, concessions HAVE to be made for revenue. Of course I suppose everyone just getting on together would be out of the question?

 

Suppose it really is a case of the finished product justifying the means?

 

On the other hand, if all that should be run is "heritage"/original stock, maybe someone needs to ring up the NYMR and tell them they've got to get rid of their Bulleidsn N15s and Schools classes.... And while they're at it they could tell the SVR that Westerns never went on the line? No? Didn't think so...

 

If a weekend of small children telling mummy and daddy that Thomas is coming pays the bills for , say an overhaul of Russell, where's the problem? It's not a perfect world, but compromise is the name of the game. So the FR might have been seen to be heavy handed and stepping on toes (Not taking any sides here), but the job is almost done, why not concentrate on making it into one of the new "Great Little Trains of Wales"???

 

Phil

 

PS, Could you fit a canoe in the guards van? That way I could do the Afon Glaslyn without the long walk back to the car... Hmmmmmmmmmm.................... :D:D

[Phil Traxson]

 

PS, Could you fit a canoe in the guards van? That way I could do the Afon Glaslyn without the long walk back to the car... Hmmmmmmmmmm.................... :D

 

Not in the guards van but it might fit in the bicycle wagon they have!

 

Phil Traxson

[roythebus]

Not being a narrow gauge enthusiast, and having only visited south Wales twice, I feel rather saddened that there is this rift between the 2 railways. I've not followed all the thread either, but see parallels in their differences that I see in other railways i belong to, and of the Cobham Bus Museum when I was on the committee of that many years ago.

 

I agree, the WHR is a new railway on an old trackbed, but then many railways are. The Isle of Wight with its Smallbrook extension is one example. I also belong to the TTA in Belgium, a short metre gauge diesel tramway with the possibility of extending the line a few more km round a horseshoe bend and up 150m in 3km. what a sight that will be for steam. BUT, the condition of the track dictates a very slow journey, and after half and hour of being bumped through a foresr at 10km/h, you've had enough.

 

I know that's not much to do with the current argument, but just putting across some points of view from members of other lines and the travelling public, who, after all, pay for the things to run in the first place.

 

The KESR experimented with running their Victorian set as the A set for a season, and it was not popular with the punters because the seats weren't that comfy, and no toilets! It's very nice having this lovingly restored heritage stock, but is it really what people want to ride in for a lengthy journey?

 

As for modern engineering, nothing wrong with that if it brings improvements to what is left of the ORIGINAL loco, which sometimes might be just the wheels or the coupling hook.

 

I hope the warring factions can have a cup of tea and make up sometime sooner rather than later. So much hot air.

[Mike Bellamy]

 

. . . shows some comparison shots of the engines Charles and Linda together, albeit in model form!

 

Also available in 7mm from our new forum sponsor EDM Models

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/5742-new-7mm-kit-for-blanche-linda-and-charles/

 

Sorry I couldn't resist a shameless plug for my 'employer' - in fact Paul is staying at Boston Lodge at the moment and driving on the FR for two weeks. I see that Phil Traxson has also just replied - Phil and Paul have a lot to answer for as they first got me interested in narrow gauge railways by taking me to the FR on working parties about 25 years ago in the days when we went around local garages and factories collecting waste oil

 

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

 

The early days of 'preservation' operation (in parentheses here because it's a term with a lot of baggage in this context) on the Ffestiniog were a different situation - the railway was there to preserve, and later, to develop. Pictures the grass grown but bustling Tan-y-Bwlch in the '60s look much more 'relaxed' - and probably pleasant - than it does today, and I would love to have seen and travelled on it when it was like that, but I suspect that the original proprietors and engineers of that railway, who were unabashedly businessmen and mechanical innovators first, would see something more akin to their own ideals in the modern Ffestiniog, and, by extension, the Welsh Highland.

 

Adam

 

I saw, and travelled on, both the Talyllyn and Festiniog in the early 1960s and I think it's simplest to say 'an awful lot has changed' on both since then although the Festiniog even then came over as relatively expensive.

 

Perhaps not too easy to remember much in the way of detail on the Festiniog, but as a member (then) of the TRPS I was a lot more familiar with that railway. But much of what both were back then has gone, replaced by the necessary adjuncts of a 21st century 'heritage tourist attraction' although in both cases still one which does its bit (and then some) for preservation.

 

Would the 1960s facilities of Towyn Wharf - without the narrow gauge museum as it is today - be acceptable to more than a handful of even 'enthusiasts' let alone day-trippers? Back then the biggest sellers in the shop were postcards and ice lollies - that wouldn't even pay the coal bill - and you couldn't get a cuppa without a walk into town. Presumably the FR built its catering establishment at Porthmadog for similar reasons - to satisfy a market it had to get into in order to survive?

 

Alas much changes but, as Adam has said, what is happening is probably not much different from what the original proprietors etc would be doing if they were still in charge today and wished to remain in business.

[coachmann]

Blaenau was steeped in nostalgia when we walked along the old Festiniog tracks circa 1960, while Tan-Y-Bwlch was a grassy terminus shared by sheep and the old lady in a Welsh hat. It was an idylic location, and I could have sat there all day watching the locos bumping and banging their way over the old bullhead track. Trouble was, the trainride was dreadfully uncomfortable and this was one thing I'm glad was NOT preserved!

[John M]

Railway Preservation call it what you will has always been a compromise between the dreamers and the pragmatists. Nothing lasts for ever track and rolling stock wears out, steam locomotive boilers do not last forever and corrosion is the greatest enemy of the steam locomotive.

 

The Corris locos were an operational necessity on the Talyllyn in the 1950s, mayor p.w. work was necessary on both the FR & Tallylyn to maintain the lines in a fit and safe state for traffic, modern bogie stock became necessary when the original stock could no longer cope with growing traffic in the 1960s.

 

In certain respects the rebuilding of the WHR is a curious case of the dreamers winning out where pragmatists feared to tread! Rather than being based on hard commerical decision making the WHR exists in its current form mainly because Mike Schumann wanted to build a railway operated by NGG16s and was prepared to provide seed funding.

 

The WHRL only started to focus on a Heritage Theme in the 1990s. There is little of the old WHR about power operated points and signals, African Steam Locos and Polish diesels?

 

Heritage and conservation provide a good focus for would be craftsmen, while operating and maintenance staff are more interested in fitness for purpose and servicibility of equipment than looks.

 

In the final analysis there is less of a difference between the FR & WHRL than meets the eye both companies are equally as dependent on volunteer support, donations and patrons as much as fare and retail revenue for their continued operation and survival.

 

 

Anyway 30 years of WHRL operation this August http://whr.fotopic.net/p66301294.html considerably longer than the old company and who knows what the future holds. Interesting Times!

 

 

John

[Ohmisterporter]

This is also why it was important that it was lumbered with massive debts too.

 

James, isn't there a short word missing from that sentance?

 

Speaking of rebuilt engines, there are plans afoot to 'restore' Welsh Pony to working order. Makes me wonder how they find the time, what with engines from two busy railways to maintain, Lyd near completion and 134 restoration started. Plus all the other stuff I can't think of as I type this. IMHO behind every preserved railway there are hard working people that get forgotten about. And while wish listers say "Why don't 'they' do such and such" it is those people that actually have to do the work. Good luck to them and a big thank you from me.

 

Geoff.

[Captain Kernow]

I wonder if you could consider the new trackwork and rebuilt formation on the WHR like a new or re-built road - the analagy being that a new road is a bit of an eyesore in the beginning, but when it starts to weather down and 'bed in' with the surrounding landscape, it begins to look more like 'it belongs there?'...

 

Perhaps we'll have slightly dodgier track, a few more weeds and a bit more 'careworn' atmosphere on the WHR in 20 years, which I would assume would actually add to the atmosphere?

 

On a different note, I would assume that the Garratts were only obtained because they were felt to be the only locos capable of working the line in the modern day with planned train lengths etc. In point of fact, my train last week stood at Bedgellert for amost 20 mins 'for pathing purposes' - so I'm wondering whether (in the fullness of time) a small fleet of replica Russells might be capable of handling the traffic?

 

Having said that, I'd never had the opportunity to see a Garratt working anywhere else in my experience so far, so I am still a fan of them!

[James]

James, isn't there a short word missing from that sentance?

 

Yes there was, sorry! Moment of extreme dyslexia - and amazing the difference three letters can make!

[Phil Traxson]

I wonder if you could consider the new trackwork and rebuilt formation on the WHR like a new or re-built road - the analagy being that a new road is a bit of an eyesore in the beginning, but when it starts to weather down and 'bed in' with the surrounding landscape, it begins to look more like 'it belongs there?'...

 

Perhaps we'll have slightly dodgier track, a few more weeds and a bit more 'careworn' atmosphere on the WHR in 20 years, which I would assume would actually add to the atmosphere?

 

On a different note, I would assume that the Garratts were only obtained because they were felt to be the only locos capable of working the line in the modern day with planned train lengths etc. In point of fact, my train last week stood at Bedgellert for amost 20 mins 'for pathing purposes' - so I'm wondering whether (in the fullness of time) a small fleet of replica Russells might be capable of handling the traffic?

 

Having said that, I'd never had the opportunity to see a Garratt working anywhere else in my experience so far, so I am still a fan of them!

 

I think you will find that the 'pathing purposes' were due to the fact that the timetable allows for running into Porthmadog, saves working out new paths when it eventually happens, the same thing happened on the FR in the run up to opening to Blaenau but the long layover happened at Tanygrisiau then.

 

Phil Traxson

[Guest Phil]

I don't think that was Neil's point, Phil. It was the locomotive point he made which has particularly caught my eye.

 

Nobody could deny that Linda and Blanche, particularly, have been modified beyond their original design plans quite extensively. They are now tender engines, and not tank engines, which changes the nature of the beast somewhat. It is certainly not "preservation" nor "restoration" but "reinvention", and on that point I think Neil's got it spot on there.

 

I am not saying, mind, that what the FR did to the engines concerned was "wrong" or "bad" - simply stating that I feel Neil is right there, and that it isn't "preservation" or "restoration" so much as "reinvention"

 

My information found here: very informative and shows some comparison shots of the engines Charles and Linda together, albeit in model form!

 

 

I understand what you both say, but that is what makes the enthusiasm of our hobby so diverse. you can argue whether the "Penrhyn ladies" were modified extensively beyond their original design. Yes they both pull a tender which contains the fuel, but they are still tank locos, albeit oil fired and fitted with pony trucks. Granted Blanche also has piston valves instead of the original design slide valves, and the cab has modified "eaves". Despite all that they are still evidently "Penrhyn Ladies".

 

I'll be honest and say I've never been too smitten on the roar of the oil burner in the firebox, and the smell of oil burning rather than the sulphury clag from a coal fire, but hey....

 

We are entering the realms of debate on how to preserve a locomotive. Take "Green Arrow" at York as an example of a difficult choice to make. In my opinion, the loco should be repaired with a new monobloc cylinder block and returned to steam. The NRM apparently believe that this is not an option as it is not historically correct, so 4771 is destined to be cold and shiny in a display hall for ever more.

 

Returning to the WHR debate - I think Neil is mixing two allied issues here. The FR needed more power so chose Linda and Blanche as ideal power, with some alteration. The FR also acquired the Alco which was one of my favourite locos. The 1960 and 1970s condition Alco with the sloping cab sides and the smaller tanks was the way I prefer to remember it, but I know the cab design had to be rebuilt. At the end of the day, the FR needed steam locos which could manage a two hour round trip along a fairly steep and twisty railway, hauling as many coaches as could realistically be attached. Fairlies were an obvious option, but the 0-4-0 Englands were not.

 

So yes, you could say the FR might not have had authentic preservation of locomotives at heart with the revival of the Festiniog railway.

 

The WHR was always going to be a blank canvas.

 

What would you propose as an alternative to the Festiniog approach ? It would have to be either new-build or foreign, capable of lifting minimum 8 or 9 car trains over a gruelling switchback railway with 1:40 gradients. Maybe the majority of us would like to have seen a fleet of new builds - a couple of "Beddgelerts" a "Moel Tryfan" and a "Gowrie". Great, we could actually do a "590" from one of the existing Indian imports - all supporting the 90 odd year old Russell. But, even if our fairy godmother were able to fund them and build them in the timescale, would they actually be able to service the operation needed to make the money to stay in business ?

 

I think the enthusiast bystanders should consider what might be meted out as power on the WHR - diesel railcars !!!! It's probably fair to say that the FR/WHR are not really have the best of luck with diesel traction. so NGG16s are mostly the order of the day. Just consider that the WHHR were considering Polish Lyd2s for their planned operations.

 

 

 

This debate will rumble on and on no doubt, and each will have their own view on what should have happened, what has happened, and what should happen in the future, but Captain Kernow makes a very valid observation about the "new" ralway weathering in. I have only travelled the first section from Caernarvon to Dinas Junction up to yet, and was conscious that it was a new railway with new fencing, track etc etc. Give it just ten years and the railway will have bedded in and look a little more "realistic".

[PhilH]

IMHO behind every preserved railway there are hard working people that get forgotten about. And while wish listers say "Why don't 'they' do such and such" it is those people that actually have to do the work

 

Absolutely - the curse of the preservation era, armchair 'enthusiasts' who contribute nothing but the hottest of hot air.

[coachmann]

Absolutely - the curse of the preservation era, armchair 'enthusiasts' who contribute nothing but the hottest of hot air.

Hot air? You must be getting better Phil! Amongst those who do contribute something to preservation are the people who portray themselves driving a Pacific loco in their clean boiler suit, but who in reality would be totally fecked (I can't think of another word) out on a mainline hauling a real train over a real railway, balancing boiler level with the need to keep steam pressure up, and coaxing a bad steamer along in attempts to keep time. I think people who have a habit of critisising other enthusiasts need to come down a peg or two.

[PhilH]

Hot air? You must be getting better Phil! Amongst those who do contribute something are the people who portray themselves driving a Pacific loco in their clean boiler suit, but who in reality would be totally fecked out on a mainline hauling a real train over a real railway, balancing boiler level with the need to keep steam pressure up, and coaxing a bad steamer along in attempts to keep time. I think people who have a habit of critisising other enthusiasts need to come down a peg or two.

 

Easy tiger - the peeping over the side of a Pacific is the easy part, and by the way I'm a driver not a fireman so most of your diatribe doesn't apply to me. The hard part is the years of getting that pacific back to working order, the hours spent doing horrible jobs that you really would rather not be doing, the bits you bring home to butcher on your own lathe and mill using your own time and electricity, then when it's all nailed together some old duffer in an armchair who has done nothing, paid nothing and taken no interest in the thing up to that point kicks off because Doncaster would have painted it two shades pinker. These people are the subject of my post - I detest them.

[coachmann]

Easy tiger - the peeping over the side of a Pacific is the easy part, and by the way I'm a driver not a fireman so most of your diatribe doesn't apply to me.

Without wishing to prolong this, that remark would make many firemen of old glad you weren't their driver. But I do take your point completely about the rest of your entry and in such circumstances it must be severely frustrating.....No wonder you hates 'em to peices! Now take it easy and get well soon.

[Mod6]

OK guys, you've both made your point, let's not get too carried away here please.

[PhilH]

Without wishing to prolong this, that remark would make many firemen of old glad you weren't their driver. But I do take your point completely about the rest of your entry and in such circumstances it must be severely frustrating.....No wonder you hates 'em to peices! Now take it easy and get well soon.

 

It is a team thing - they do the work though.

 

Apart from my original observation which is a general preservation viewpoint on my part, I don't know enough about the situation so no more from me in this thread.

 

Thanks for the good wishes, taking it easy is something I'm quite good at!

[Invicta]

I wonder if you could consider the new trackwork and rebuilt formation on the WHR like a new or re-built road - the analagy being that a new road is a bit of an eyesore in the beginning, but when it starts to weather down and 'bed in' with the surrounding landscape, it begins to look more like 'it belongs there?'...

 

Perhaps we'll have slightly dodgier track, a few more weeds and a bit more 'careworn' atmosphere on the WHR in 20 years, which I would assume would actually add to the atmosphere?

 

 

I think there's a lot in that argument- I've travelled on the WHR 4 times now, to Rhyd Ddu in 2006 & 2007, to Beddgelert on the first day of full public opening in 2009 and to Hafod-y-Llyn early this year, and a part of the overall impression I have is that, yes, compared to some of the other Welsh NG lines it lacks a little something in atmosphere because it does look and feel very new and almost sterile- the ballast is clean, the lineside fencing, structures and much of the civil engineering look very new etc, as you'd expect given that a lot of it has been in place for such a short time.

 

I think this pic of Beddgelert station during construction shows some of what we're talking about; Look at the contrast between the new platforms and the original concrete WHR water tower supports on the left...

http://www.whrsoc.or...dd-120208-5.jpg

 

To use a modelling comparison, it kind of feels like your new exhibition layout when you take it to the first show, and you maybe haven't quite finished all of the detailing and weathering to the extent you'd like.

 

Give it a few years to weather into the surroundings a bit more, acquire a bit of wear and tear, a few weeds etc, and I expect it'll feel much more like part of the landscape than it does now

[coachmann]

I think the new Welsh Highland Railway is going to be one of the big little railway of Wales. Combine superb scenery with well known places like Caernarvon, Porthmadog, Beddgelert, then add new rolling stock and big steam engines that are unique to this country let alone Wales, and it's a winner. I think a shuttle from Porthmadog to Beddgellert is going to be the money spinner. Wait while the big Tender locos are restored and running too....Wow !

[ForestPines]

I'm also looking forward to seeing those Belgian tender locos restored.

 

My point about the attitude of preserved lines and the "museum" side of heritage is, I think, a fairly modern thing - Linda and Blanche were rebuilt, what, 40 years ago now? Different mores applied then - I don't think there's any way that the NRM, were it to be a new institution, would contemplate sectioning Ellerman Lines the way it did in the 70s, even though it's an ideal education tool. (Does anyone know when Manchester museum sectioned its Isle of Man loco?). Then again, the FR completely rebuilt one of the Funkey diesels to fit their structure gauge; so they have one in original condition, and one rebuilt, which to me seems like a fair compromise.