"Welsh Highland Railway Developments & Progress"?

[baldopeter]

The most recent information I have seen is that ERTMS is due to go live 'in a couple of weeks'....but we have seen that before. It seems close, but has been for a long time. The cambrian crossing ( Cae Pawb) is one of number of bits of the jigsaw to finish, but as I have tried to point out, once the basic railway is passed it will have limited capacity ( or the one platform at Port actually) for WHR trains if the FR runs a full 3 train service.

 

Equally, there is no room for late running, meaning the possibility of a 'knock on' to other parts of the system is high, hence the step by step approach and see how it goes. We will run the winter trains to HyL, and at half term some trains over the entire route. As the FR is not running due to the bypass bridge work it is a good time to 'experiment', but once the FR reopens in March we have to take care not to affect other services.

 

Only when the cob is widened and a second platform for the WHR built will there be any flexibility in operation, and we have no idea of traffic patterns either...time will tell us.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Bomag]

...once the basic railway is passed it will have limited capacity ( or the one platform at Port actually) for WHR trains if the FR runs a full 3 train service.

 

Equally, there is no room for late running, meaning the possibility of a 'knock on' to other parts of the system is high, hence the step by step approach and see how it goes. We will run the winter trains to HyL, and at half term some trains over the entire route. As the FR is not running due to the bypass bridge work it is a good time to 'experiment', but once the FR reopens in March we have to take care not to affect other services.

 

Only when the cob is widened and a second platform for the WHR built will there be any flexibility in operation, and we have no idea of traffic patterns either...time will tell us.

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

Peter this not aimed at you - Here's a thought, instead of pitherering around with limited tack layouts, insufficient capacity and the inability to have a robust timetable (to cope with lateness), something which is not just 'happened' but must have been foreseeable for years, would is not have been a better option to run most of the service trains into the WHHR station until Harbour station is sorted out? Given that the work on Pont Croesor station could equally been spent on signalling WHHR we could have had a full service for 2010. If the widening of the Cob needs some of the current highway, work can't really start until the bypass is open!

 

Irrespective of the WHHR proposal to run to PC, any train service which gives a convenient service from Portmadog to Beddgelert is likely to be attractive to more tourists than the current four hour long round trip on WHR (or a short trip to PC). The £1m question is - are enough extra passengers going to be attracted to take into account the reduction in £30 full line tickets?

[ngtrains.com]

I'll chip in a comment here, possibly authoritatively as driver on the FR [and one that was driving last weekend whilst the management were all pratting about in Devon]......

 

.......but it is actually only my opinion but that is based in conversations with those in the know.

 

We are running trains over the cross town link in January & February because the FR will have a hole in it just at the top of Minffordd station whilst the bypass chaps build an shiny new bridge to take a double track FR [snippet i only just learnt is that the loop is to be extended across the bridge with the points beyond it]. However, I doubt that the FR will run trains routinely across the link in the summer until the bypass opens.

 

My reason for suspecting this is simple - traffic

 

The main road through Port blocks up with traffic which queues back right across the cob and up the hill towards Minffordd and it can take an hour to traverse. We were all told the queue was the fault of the toll on the cob but that just stopped the queue getting to the three unsynchronised pedestrian crossings all of which are biased to the pedestrian. This means that for much of the day the traffic is solidly queuing across the FR/WHR tracks on Britannia Bridge. I know it has wig wag flashing crossing lights, I know its marked out as a yellow box junction [but when did anyone take any notice of them - here in York they seem to mean park where you like] but if the cars have got nowhere to go trying to get through with 68 ton of loco and 12 coaches is just taking the p!ss. I suspect if we tried mayhem would ensue resulting in heaps of bad press and I expect we will want to avoid that!

 

That won't stop specials or stock moves as the signalling will be operational.

[Bomag]

Not mentioned before, but equally important: all local NG railways make a significant part of their revenue from "secondary" sales (i.e. non-tickets), in other words: their respective shops. It'll be commercial suicide for the FR to divert large chunks of that income to the WHHR, having invested so heavily in the WHR rebuild.

 

Let me put this loud and clear: the WHHR will not run on the WHR mainline for the foreseeable future for commercial reasons. It doesn't matter how much much much you, the enthusiast, wants it desperately to happen NOW, it simply WON'T!!! Period. Learn to live with it... So don't even bother coming up with the most un-credible plans, the FR isn't listening. For now...

 

If you want the story, subscribe to http://finance.group...p/WelshHighland It's the closest you'll gonna get to the fire (unless you work for FR management that is )

 

This issue of secondary income was mentioned in a previous post in the thread; also mentioned before (with a degree of agreement) was if there had not been the previous mutual distrust etc the railway could have been run into the WHHR station on a profits sharing system, i.e. WHR would have had a share of the catering and shop profits in recognition of bringing punters in the door - as it is Pont Coesor is hardly a marketing and catering mecca. For the avoidance of doubt I did not return to repeating the original point of the thread as you suggest; my suggestion was the WHR to run on the WHHR until Harbour station is fit for purpose. The argument about abstraction and sales loss is currently rather circular - if you cannot run a full service until the bypass is finished and Harbour station areas is clear for development (and the level crossing can be used without the town coming to even more of a halt) then the throughput of WHR passengers to the shop and cafe at Harbour station is going to be low over the next few years, particularly if the service pattern favours journeys starting from the North.

[Phil Traxson]

This issue of secondary income was mentioned in a previous post in the thread; also mentioned before (with a degree of agreement) was if there had not been the previous mutual distrust etc the railway could have been run into the WHHR station on a profits sharing system, i.e. WHR would have had a share of the catering and shop profits in recognition of bringing punters in the door - as it is Pont Coesor is hardly a marketing and catering mecca. For the avoidance of doubt I did not return to repeating the original point of the thread as you suggest; my suggestion was the WHR to run on the WHHR until Harbour station is fit for purpose. The argument about abstraction and sales loss is currently rather circular - if you cannot run a full service until the bypass is finished and Harbour station areas is clear for development (and the level crossing can be used without the town coming to even more of a halt) then the throughput of WHR passengers to the shop and cafe at Harbour station is going to be low over the next few years, particularly if the service pattern favours journeys starting from the North.

 

It isn't a model railway, you can't just put a set of points in and run to a different station. The cost of the legislation and inspections to do this would eat up finances that could be better used elsewhere so negating its usefulness, particularly as it would only be a temporary arrangement. Incidentally the alterations to harbour station involve extending to the wet side not the road side!

 

Phil Traxson

[The Stationmaster]

.... you can't just put a set of points in and run to a different station. The cost of the legislation and inspections to do this would eat up finances that could be better used elsewhere so negating its usefulness, particularly as it would only be a temporary arrangement. Incidentally the alterations to harbour station involve extending to the wet side not the road side!

 

Phil Traxson

 

 

Under ROGS things are of course a bit different - but you still need manpower (or consultant power) to do the assessments, design, paperwork, and physical work on the ground. In this case the assessment and design part of it would be reasonably straightforward and could be done in a matter of weeks but the physical part of it would indeed cost money and finding the (volunteer probably) manpower might not be easy at this time of year.

 

But it it might create a situation which would either involve abortive expenditure or require further work, and expense, to get back to the 'through to Harbour' game plan. And it might also create a precedent situation which would be difficult to forget or to rule out of future relations between the two railways.

 

I can thus see plenty of 'political' or economic reasions for the FR/WHR not taking such a step but the only physical reasons would appear to be either cost (unless the WHHR paid?) or resourcing.

[invercloy]

News has recently surfaced of a new loco to join the WHR fleet, an ex-Java sugar plantation 0-4-4-0T Jung mallet.

 

 

A photo is on the WHR news website:

http://www.isengard.co.uk/images/JPEGS/Mallet_TH.jpg

 

It's currently at Statfold Barn but it being passed on to the WHR as it's too big for the SBR. Apparently work to restore it is progressing quite well.

 

Many more details on this thread: http://ngrm-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2655.0 It does require registration to view, but there's a fair amount of detail on the loco.

[ngtrains.com]

It is being sent to work on the WHR by its owner Graham Lee.

 

Earlier this summer the FR/WHR hosted Graham for a couple of days on the two railways. He was given a ride on a gravity train on the FR and I believe he went on the footplate of 87 on the WHR [may have been a different engine]. He also got the full guided tour. Judging by the letter he wrote he was well impressed and made promises of assistance - for example he now owns the rights to the manufacture of Upnor Castle [and Conkout's] gearboxes and has promised spares.

 

The ultimate co-operation is to send this engine where it can work to its capacity

 

 

This Friday, Saturday & Sunday will be good days to be at the FR as its Vintage Weekend. All sorts of odd trains will be running with Moelwyn and Mary on making appearances on passenger trains, all the steam engines out to play, Lyd making an occasional appearance and DLG returning to service after a bogie overhaul.

 

I'm driving Merddin Emrys on Saturday on a silly little train of three bogies an three of the four wheelers. Sunday I'm driving Blanche pulling the train whilst Lyd poses in front!

[John_Hughes]

It's good to see that (some) trains will be running on the line through to Port in the new year.

 

Of course, if the Ffr/WHR hadn't been claiming for the last several years in their publicity materials that 'through trains to Porthmadog are expected to start in 2009 (later amended to 2010)' perhaps there would have been less impatience from the watching hordes eager to ride.

 

In fairness I do accept that a lot of this delay was down to factors outside their control, so no aspersions are being cast!

[AMJ]

I overheard that the WHR/FfR is essentially going to be classed as 3 railways based on the distances etc and the likely destinations of passengers.

 

Caernarfon - Bedgellert

Bedgellert - PM

and PM - BF

 

Any longer and most passengers will not be able to afford the full trip or the time involved. The other year I was at Caernarfon and there were 4 adults in a group and the bill for the tickets was just over £100. I overheard people at one railway complaining that £10 was a lot, but these are the same sort that will buy packets of cigs and drink lager. (Some people need to look at the spending priorities.)

[James]

I overheard that the WHR/FfR is essentially going to be classed as 3 railways based on the distances etc and the likely destinations of passengers.

 

Caernarfon - Bedgellert

Bedgellert - PM

and PM - BF

 

Any longer and most passengers will not be able to afford the full trip or the time involved. The other year I was at Caernarfon and there were 4 adults in a group and the bill for the tickets was just over £100. I overheard people at one railway complaining that £10 was a lot, but these are the same sort that will buy packets of cigs and drink lager. (Some people need to look at the spending priorities.)

 

And the problem with drinking lager is?!

 

This is true for all leuiser (sp?) activities - some people can afford it and some people can't. The three railways concept makes a lot of sense. time too comes into it, not many normal people will want to devote an enitre day to sitting on train in this way.

 

Many heritage railways' full lines fares are quite expensive for a day out too - I genuinely think that railways might pick up a little extra business if they put their full fare tables on line and on time tables. My in laws were taking their other grand child for a few days in the west midlands to safari parks and the like, but ended up at the SVR. The saw the price (the full line price) and immediately said no! I asked them why didn't they just travel on part of the line - they said they didn't know you could. So that was a few quid on the fares lost along with maybe a few pounds in a gift shop of cafe.

[StaffsOatcake]

Under ROGS things are of course a bit different - but you still need manpower (or consultant power) to do the assessments, design, paperwork, and physical work on the ground. In this case the assessment and design part of it would be reasonably straightforward and could be done in a matter of weeks but the physical part of it would indeed cost money and finding the (volunteer probably) manpower might not be easy at this time of year.

 

But it it might create a situation which would either involve abortive expenditure or require further work, and expense, to get back to the 'through to Harbour' game plan. And it might also create a precedent situation which would be difficult to forget or to rule out of future relations between the two railways.

 

I can thus see plenty of 'political' or economic reasions for the FR/WHR not taking such a step but the only physical reasons would appear to be either cost (unless the WHHR paid?) or resourcing.

 

This can all be done 'in house' as there is huge amount of 'big and little railway' expertise in all areas of planning and installations already involved with various projects on the FR, and maybe, just maybe, they can be persuaded to take a look at the 'Darkside' ie the WHR. I'm also led to belief that the relationship between the FR/WHR and the 64 crew is about to become a little less frosty.

 

 

Mind what I can say is that It cost around £100 a time in either direction to take a train over the WHR over the Cambrian line so that's that's at 200 quid for every though train that goes to Harbour station and then heads back along the WHR.

 

 

So interesting times ahead

[Mod6]

Subsequent posts on driving on the FR and digital regulators now here

[Etched Pixels]

This can all be done 'in house' as there is huge amount of 'big and little railway' expertise in all areas of planning and installations already involved with various projects on the FR, and maybe, just maybe, they can be persuaded to take a look at the 'Darkside' ie the WHR. I'm also led to belief that the relationship between the FR/WHR and the 64 crew is about to become a little less frosty.

 

 

Mind what I can say is that It cost around £100 a time in either direction to take a train over the WHR over the Cambrian line so that's that's at 200 quid for every though train that goes to Harbour station and then heads back along the WHR.

 

 

So interesting times ahead

 

I have a bet riding on the WHR having to do some fast work and link with the WHHR terminus on a regular basis the moment they start "serious " services. The public are not going to stand for "Sorry but the road is all blocked again so you can't go where you wanted, can't use the bar and don't get ice cream". It's a service and if it takes two hours to get a train over the crossing every time someone parks in the wrong place or breaks down anywhere in the vicinity it'll soon get a very bad name. With the pending massacre of public services a "car blocking a toy train" is going to be so low on the police priority list it'll simply not get dealt with - even assuming you could actually get a recovery truck through the summer traffic in any reasonable timescale.

 

I doubtt we'll see WHR trains running into the WHHR in a hurry - for all the reasons mentioned plus weight, length and clearance, but I can see some hurried "change at Pen-y-mount" work having to be done.

 

Let us hope (for the sake of both railways and my bet ) the reported improvements in relationships pan out into something good

 

Agreed btw on prices - and I do wonder if the little railways like Corris will do well out of the recession as you can "do the steam train" for a fiver and by the end of an hour junior in many families is probably now bored again of trains and wants the toilet 8)

 

 

 

Alan

[Jenny Emily]

Cars parked blocking the tracks shouldn't be an issue - a couple of trolley jacks were used to despatch illegally parked vehicles at Weymouth I believe. I've also never yet come across a car that cannot be lifted by half a dozen burly blokes with a grudge (often, if the car was illegally parked, to somewhere that would prove difficult for the driver to manouvere out from).

 

The cost to cross the main line seems quite high. Is this an equivelent of track access charges, or is it more about putting money into a pot to cover wear and tear maintenance and the ability to pay for the crossing's renewal periodically?

[Phil Traxson]

I have a bet riding on the WHR having to do some fast work and link with the WHHR terminus on a regular basis the moment they start "serious " services. The public are not going to stand for "Sorry but the road is all blocked again so you can't go where you wanted, can't use the bar and don't get ice cream". It's a service and if it takes two hours to get a train over the crossing every time someone parks in the wrong place or breaks down anywhere in the vicinity it'll soon get a very bad name. With the pending massacre of public services a "car blocking a toy train" is going to be so low on the police priority list it'll simply not get dealt with - even assuming you could actually get a recovery truck through the summer traffic in any reasonable timescale.

 

 

Alan

 

Cars blocking the track are a lot less likely once the new Porthmadog By-Pass is open and the traffic isn't queuing to get round the Island at the other end of the High Street. Unfortunately it will kill the free publicity of the main road running right past all the stations as well, unless a train is running under or over the By-Pass as they cross it most folks won't notice any of the railways are there.

 

Phil Traxson

[AMJ]

My supporters "first passenger train" ticket arrived in the post with timetable yesterday. Wow 2H45 for the full line single trip.

 

Cars parked in the wrong place are not a problem - when we went out as a youth club in the coach the lads would get out and move cars out of the way! My fingerp[rints are probably on many cars in London in the 80's!

 

WHHR will benefit from the line as mentioned earlier some people just think of full line returns. I have a problem with WHHR and that is the book shop, my credit card often finds its way into their machine!

[Etched Pixels]

First trip made it - one problem with what appears to have been a deliberate blocking of a level crossing and some superglue in a token keyhole. The police were taking statements after the incident.

 

Lots of crowds at Porthmadog

[James]

First trip made it - one problem with what appears to have been a deliberate blocking of a level crossing and some superglue in a token keyhole. The police were taking statements after the incident.

It sounds like there's still a bit of opposition to the WHR - when I spent a week there we were told not to answer contencious questions and just refer them to the company itself!

[Oldddudders]

It would be quite naive to imagine that those of us who don't live in the communities in question have understood all the issues that concern them. We think more visitors, meaning more jobs, meaning more general wealth. There will be plenty of people who have moved to North Wales to get away from crowds and bustle, let alone noisy trains, as well as the indigenous Welsh who will only see house prices rising further beyond their reach. Few developments and change suit everyone.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

First trip made it - one problem with what appears to have been a deliberate blocking of a level crossing and some superglue in a token keyhole. The police were taking statements after the incident.

 

Lots of crowds at Porthmadog

 

 

 

As mentioned earlier in thread... Trolley jacks.

 

Some companies also sell wheel dollies for moving cars around garages on castors. A couple of sets of these would surely come in handy, then a car on a crossing would pose no problem, superglued locks or not.

 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdByPpIAK-pr-wjxfjwtfNqkXlmQWB8DruPveguBfHcKWakv8&t=1&usg=__guUPOgY_0KkixxC7wKn45x-vwu4=

[cctransuk]

As mentioned earlier in thread... Trolley jacks.

 

Some companies also sell wheel dollies for moving cars around garages on castors. A couple of sets of these would surely come in handy, then a car on a crossing would pose no problem, superglued locks or not.

 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdByPpIAK-pr-wjxfjwtfNqkXlmQWB8DruPveguBfHcKWakv8&t=1&usg=__guUPOgY_0KkixxC7wKn45x-vwu4=

 

.... taking a vehicle without the owner's consent?

 

Being involved with highway works, I know that only the police may legally move an obstructive vehicle on the public highway.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Engineering Projects Manager,

Cambridge City Council.

[Bomag]

.... taking a vehicle without the owner's consent?

 

Being involved with highway works, I know that only the police may legally move an obstructive vehicle on the public highway.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Engineering Projects Manager,

Cambridge City Council.

 

And anybody else covered by the TM Act e.g. Traffic Officers; however, FR/WHR staff won't be covered - I hope they have sufficient insurance.

[Etched Pixels]

TWOCing is a criminal offence - you can't get insurance against 28 days in the nick !

[Etched Pixels]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/hi/newsid_9140000/newsid_9141600/9141648.stm

 

has a nice chunk of video footage (the English version isn't anything like as long)