Gill Head: Kirkby Luneside's neighbour

[Physicsman]

Stonework has started on the underbridge and I'll post some pics of what's been done tomorrow.

 

In the meantime, a picture of a couple of trees behind a wall. The recently-completed wall received a couple of additional paint washes today, which enhance the stonework. Sorry I can't provide you with cereal box buildings or out-of-the box loco pics. Those will have to wait for my advanced modelling course, due in 2065......

 

[Physicsman]

I'd like to ask a couple of questions and would welcome your comments on these. My reason for doing this is very simple. I've just looked at easily the worst bit of "modelling" I've seen in 11 years as a member of RMweb. I don't think the contributors to that thread are being honest with the "builder", so....

 

1) Do you think it's important for the builder of a layout, building, loco etc to always give their best, whatever their level of expertise? I KNOW it's an individual's own thread and, within reason, they can please themselves what they churn out. But my angle is more along the lines of whether said individual, if they are serious about what they are doing, should always TRY to submit a decent effort on this public forum?

 

2) Do you think it's important for readers/followers/contributors to a thread to be honest in their opinions? Even if it means - politely - informing the individual (constructively) that what they've done could be improved by x,y or z? Is it of any help to an individual if all they ever hear are positives when it's patently obvious there are faults they could be encouraged to improve upon?

 

Comments welcome.

[AdeMoore]

Interesting Jeff, least I know it’s not any of my threads!

I for one would welcome constructive comments and more so try this method type comments.

Me personally I do try my best but time is also a key so RTP does come into play, but with added painting and weathering always.

What I find though unless you are really an established modeller on here such as yourself comments are hard to come by. Boring posts I guess so must try harder to do something about that.

I’m not familiar with the thread you speak of, but it seems folk have commented it’s an ok bridge when it’s bog basic by the sounds of it and are capable of more.

Looking forward to how your bridge ends up, but as the previous pages testify it will be knock out.

Cheers

Edited May 1, 2022 by AdeMoore
!

[Physicsman]

Hi Ade.

 

Thanks for your comments which are always very much appreciated.

 

Can I make it clear that I'm in no way trying to pass judgement on anyone's modelling. I can have an opinion, but it's only as valid as the next persons. And the builder can tell me to "go jump" if they wish!

 

However, what I've seen (the thread and builder don't really matter, it's the general principle I'm interested in) is just SO bad that I immediately wondered how the person had the nerve to post it on here. Made worse by a collection of "that's good" type comments when even a 5 year old would say it was bl**dy awful.

 

Jeff

Edited May 1, 2022 by Physicsman
Blasted tablet typos!!

[John Besley]

I like to think of this site (RM Web) as somewhere you can gain inspiration, ideas, help and guidance etc. to this end it should be kind of accepted that models and pictures are to a certain standard. (I have no idea what thread you are referring to - perhaps you'll guide us)

 

I myself have been inspired by others such as - Little Muddle, Your thread Jeff  on using Air Drying DAS, The Sheep Chronicles, .... To name three

 

I like to gauge my humble efforts with the line - would it be acceptable in a top quality modeling mag.

 

Before the internet I use to follow Model Railroader as then modelling in the US where streets ahead in scenary products and standards

 

I must admit I have wondered whether some posters in the Realistic Models thread have any idea what they are posting - is there an suitable thread for work in progress?

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by John Besley
Correction

[lambiedg]

I have always felt that you learn best from your mistakes.

if nobody points out, politely, that this or that is not great then the assumption will be that all is well.

Of course you will also get the rivet counters who are at the other end of the spectrum but I can live without them too.

if I ever saw something that I knew you could do better on here I would feel empowered by your attitude demonstrated throughout the thread to mention it.

On other treads I might choose to keep quiet 

[teaky]

I don't know which thread you are referring to Jeff and revealing which one it is risks opening one of those online arguments where words like elitism, snobbishness etc. get thrown around and which achieve nothing in the end.  You have no idea what the mental ability of the modeller concerned is nor of their emotional stability.  Perhaps the people giving positive feedback have guessed that this may be the best way to encourage in this particular case?

 

You receive constructive criticism and suggestions relating to details that many people don't even model in the first place.  That is likely to be because it has become clear that you strive for the highest standards and are clearly capable of achieving them.  I'm sure we've all seen examples in the press (because that's the way they are) of a bloke who has a massive layout with trains going everywhere and which looks much like the kind of thing a 7 year old would aspire to with everything out of the box and no thought for dates or geography.  Whilst our initial reaction might be to scoff, if you you pause for a moment you might think: so what, he's happy and surely it is better than spending every night in the pub drinking cheap lager and moaning about football?

 

Each to their own.  If you don't like a thread just ignore it.  This is a hobby we do for fun.  If someone else is having fun in a different way then so what?

 

In your case: keep doing what you're doing.  It is inspiring many of us.  I can't see myself building dry stone walls out of individual 'stones' but that doesn't mean it won't lead to me doing better walls due to what I have seen on this thread.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by teaky

[Winslow Boy]

 

Those two questions are the in my mind two very large elephants in the room and really are very controversial Jeff.

 

Posting your efforts on here does lead you to being commented on and as you state those can be good and bad. Whether you are able to accept them depends on the persons character and that can only be discovered by the reaction to them. I tailor my comments according to my knowledge of the person. 

 

A lot of people will view various postings etc but won't comment because they do not wish to upset the poster as they know they would not like them andput them off making further postings. There will always be posters who make remarks no matter there impact as they see it as part and parcel of using the site.

 

What I do think is important is to accept that everybody has different standards and that just because they are posting items does not mean they are wrong or worse standards but that they are different.

 

You are very fortunate in that your standards are extremely high and that you have the time and resources able to meet them. I on the other hand have neither but that doesn't mean I cannot post comments it just means I have to tailor my comments and accept that they may be ignored

 

 

59 minutes ago, John Besley said:

 

 

 

[JustinDean]

Ay up Jeff. I think we can all agree the general spirit on RMWeb is to provide constructive criticism and I’ve always been glad to receive advice from other modellers. 
Regarding not being sure why others are applauding ‘bad’ work on the thread you mentioned, or why the thread owner posted up the ‘bad’ work. Firstly I think there’s a fear of offending the poster and I have seen instances on RMWeb where some perfectly sound advice has been taken completely the wrong way leading to arguments. What some of us may consider bad modelling maybe still a good effort from that particular modeller and the reaction could be to provide encouragement. I think most people on here want to be nice and on the whole this is a friendly place and while some well articulated criticism is way more useful, some members may struggle to know how to deliver it. Personally I follow threads which I find inspirational, meaning those particular modellers are way ahead of me in their skill sets and it’s unlikely I’ll be telling them how to get it right!

Jay 

[Rowsley17D]

Opened up a can of worms here, Jeff. I find it best to avoid looking at threads to which you refer, although in threads such as John @John Besley mentions it is hard not to see posts which don't fit the thread title. Then again, how do we carefully make suggestions for improvement without reading the thread in the first place especially when a number of members have given their approval with a "Like" or "Craftsmanship/Clever"? 

[JustinDean]

The late Mick Bonwick would message me rather than posting on a thread if he had some pointers to deliver. I guess that reduces risk of potential ‘embarrassment’ , not that I would’ve cared as I’m aware there’s plenty of room for improvement.
 

Jay

[Physicsman]

Excellent batch of comments, lads. I agree with everything that has been said, with no exceptions.

 

Can I re-iterate that I'm not on my "hobby horse" or trying to lead some kind of crusade against "sub standard" modelling. We all do what we can, and one person's efforts (eg. mine) might be cr@p in comparison to someone elses. 

 

The comments put onto a thread must certainly depend on a knowledge of the modeller involved as there are some who could easily take offence. I'm guided by the character of their threads, past and present, as to whether they want a response in the first place and whether I should simply say "keep up your efforts", or offer advice - for what it's worth. But If it's clear that said modeller DOES want people to respond AND the modeller has a track record then I'm always going to be honest with what I say.

 

The particular example I'm referring to was simply a catalyst to provoking the questions I raised. I, for one, would always want non-trivial things to be pointed out. I've learned an enormous amount in the years I've been on here and I'm very grateful for all the input I've received. Maybe others would prefer just to post with no consequences?

 

In no way am I trying to be judgemental or controversial. The answer to my first question - as you've all pointed out - is modeller dependent (age, state of mind, experience etc) and the second depends on what input we feel we should feed-back.

 

Thanks for the comments. More welcome if anyone is interested.

 

Jeff

[BWsTrains]

10 hours ago, Physicsman said:

I'd like to ask a couple of questions and would welcome your comments on these.

 

Hi Jeff, intriguing questions indeed.

 

one way to consider them is to reflect on the old chestnut, "how many drivers consider themselves to be of above average driving skill?"  Answer - Far too many! Included are those who tailgate and weave their way thru traffic at 100kph etc., I'd bet they've not been on an advanced driving course.

 

Apply this to modelling and you might reasonably expect to find a significant number who assess their skill level to be in a higher decile than it is in reality. For such a person, any critique however well intended may easily cause offense or worse. No easy answer IMO; to endorse such work compounds the misconception, to critique is to challenge the person's worth as much as the work.

 

Regarding topics on layout construction I feel the bar (as I sense it) sits at a pretty high level, high enough to deter the likes of myself who do not feel their work can ever measure up to that standard. The many projects we all know on here are just that far ahead and however hard I might try I will not attain that level. That's just me, if I ran a topic I'd want it to be good enough, maybe the next one will be?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by BWsTrains

[Physicsman]

25 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Opened up a can of worms here, Jeff. I find it best to avoid looking at threads to which you refer, although in threads such as John @John Besley mentions it is hard not to see posts which don't fit the thread title. Then again, how do we carefully make suggestions for improvement without reading the thread in the first place especially when a number of members have given their approval with a "Like" or "Craftsmanship/Clever"? 

 

Yep, I've opened the can of worms. But opening the can raises yet another issue....

 

Ten years ago the Forum was buzzing with posts and a thread could - if we chose to - be an almost full-time job in responding to it. Lots and lots of input, often filled with humour, reminisces etc - all really useful to the naive modeller that was me.

 

Now, the Forum is much quieter. A lot less response, even when someone openly asks for advice. Yes, times change - and maybe the clientele and characters on the Forum do, too. A shame, really. 

 

I actually don't spend much time on here these days compared to a decade ago. Too busy building walls, eh? 

 

Off to build the bridge arch.....

Edited May 1, 2022 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

8 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Hi Jeff, intriguing questions indeed.

 

one way to consider them is to reflect on the old chestnut, "how many drivers consider themselves to be of above average driving skill?"  Answer - Far too many! Included are those who tailgate and weave their way thru traffic at 100kph etc., I'd bet they've not been on an advanced driving course.

 

Apply this to modelling and you might reasonably expect to find a significant number who assess their skill level to be in a higher decile than it is in reality. For such a person, any critique however well intended may easily cause offense or worse. No easy answer IMO; to endorse such work compounds the misconception, to critique is to challenge the person's worth as much as the work.

 

Regarding topics on layout construction I feel the bar (as I sense it) sits at a pretty high level, high enough to deter the likes of myself who do not feel their work can ever measure up to that standard. The many projects we all know on here are just that far ahead and however hard I might try I will not attain that level. That's just me, if I ran a topic I'd want it to be good enough, maybe the next one will be?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Colin, I've seen what you can produce, and I can tell you that it is MORE than worthy of being on here. So no worries there!

 

Agree with your comments. Maybe my perception of the Forum is that IF people post on here, especially those who've been on the Forum for a fair while, they EXPECT a response.

 

Oh well, I've raised the issue. There are no hard and fast answers, are there? Time to go and DO something.

 

J.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

4 days in and the underbridge is taking shape. Prototype pic for comparison....

 

 

 

 

 

[JustinDean]

That’s shaping up into a very nice model Jeff 

 

Jay

[Physicsman]

4 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

That’s shaping up into a very nice model Jeff 

 

Jay

 

Thanks Jay. I'm very much enjoying this - it took me a long time to discover that I really love scratchbuilding structures and scenery.

 

Work will continue on the back face tomorrow, then there's the tricky job of building the arch rings to line up with the arch liner stonework..... Another challenge to have a go at. Can't imagine plodding on doing the same thing year after year after year - can you?

 

 

[JustinDean]

1 minute ago, Physicsman said:

 

Thanks Jay. I'm very much enjoying this - it took me a long time to discover that I really love scratchbuilding structures and scenery.

 

Work will continue on the back face tomorrow, then there's the tricky job of building the arch rings to line up with the arch liner stonework..... Another challenge to have a go at. Can't imagine plodding on doing the same thing year after year after year - can you?

 

 

Same for me Jeff. I’m very much enjoying the learning process of making structures. I’ve spent so long renovating old cottages making a model of one should be a doddle! 
 

Are you planning on adding mortar between the stones on that facing wall?

 

Jay

[Alister_G]

On 29/04/2022 at 10:43, Rowsley17D said:

 

That photo, at a slight angle, explains things. As Rob @MrWolf says probably no room room for wing walls and it certainly makes an unusual feature not often seen.

 

The road bridge at Bakewell was similar Jonathan:

 

 

Al.

[Physicsman]

9 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

Same for me Jeff. I’m very much enjoying the learning process of making structures. I’ve spent so long renovating old cottages making a model of one should be a doddle! 
 

Are you planning on adding mortar between the stones on that facing wall?

 

Jay

 

The colour wash on the stones is currently for effect - to check the shade out before I properly apply it. So all the stones will receive a very dilute PVA-DAS "wash" to serve as mortar, then be rubbed down and paint washes chucked on.

 

It'll also need some weathering grot in places - hope to be ready for that by the end of this week!

[John Besley]

Simply stunning work Jeff

 

[John Besley]

Going back to your earlier remarks, I've been pondering the learning process.

 

All of us start somewhere and our first efforts are well to our eyes at the time probably good but, as my teachers said at school could do better, so we try again and again...

 

YouTube, reading up in the quality magazines, this website and asking the questions are great tools to self improvement, above all having an enquiring mindset and being prepared to redo stuff to get it right is the answer.

 

Being prepared to push your boundaries to try something new...

 

A case in point - I was not happy with a wall I'd built for Exhill Works as the finish just didn't look right, it was repainted and weathered 3 times untill I was happy - this included studying numerous YouTube military modelling videos to finally work it out

[Physicsman]

Yes, John - always good to try to learn new things. Doesn't always lead to improvements, but it certainly makes things a lot more interesting. Once a great technique is established, fine, but if I was doing things the way I was, say 15 years ago, I wouldn't have posted post any pics on here. A great hobby when one is always TRYING to advance!

 

A case in point is with my main hobby, astronomy, and my obsession for the last 6 years - high resolution photography, especially the moon, though Jupiter will get more of a look-in from the end of this year as it heads to higher declinations/altitudes.

 

I've refined a technique for the last few years and results have improved. However, having watched a number of recent videos - by true luminaries in the field - and having spent a few weeks pondering, I came to the conclusion that I was missing a couple of "tricks" in technique that I should have been aware of many moons ago (sorry about the pun!) Whether as a result, or coincidentally, my images from early April - in not ideal conditions - were about the best I've achieved. Very inspirational, spurring me to aim even higher.

 

As with all great "pastimes", the desire to always keep TRYING to improve (doesn't always work) is what keeps the interest and enjoyment levels high.

 

And - in relation to question 2 - receiving honest, no-nonsense feedback and constructive advice is essential. I've got no time for sycophancy in any walk of life.

 

Now, returning to the underbridge, I've got work to do on the back face and then it'll be the arch rings.....

[Physicsman]

Continuing work on the underbridge.

 

I decided to remove the section of track I was fitting the bridge around. Then I could just build the bridge in the conventional way and slot it into place.

 

The pics are self-explanatory. The arch liner is currently sat, not glued, in place. The screws on the rear side are to pull the rear face onto the glue that joins the main body to the rear face.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Physicsman