Countering hate.

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

A hilarious case of how ill informed some activists really are (and of course the Arabs were later invaders and colonisers of Egypt so why they should have a claim is anyone's guess.) 

 

The point about acting is that it involves someone pretending to be someone else. Restricting roles by race is another form of racism. If Whites can only play Whites and Blacks can only play Blacks, there won't be many roles for the many excellent Black Shakespearean actors and presumably Jewish actors will be mainly limited to Shylock? 

 

This will only end when we all see each other as human beings first and forget the tribal loyalties. 

Back in the days of the Pharoahs, the population of Egypt was a light skinned race, and the nobility is always depicted as such, although they were occasionally ruled by Pharoahs from elsewhere. Tarharka was one who these days would be classed as "Black African"

The country to the south which the Egyptians normally called Punt, was more akin to modern Sub Saharan  Africa as they were dark skinned and we would recognise the more African features the Egyptians depicted them with.

North Africa in Pharoanic times was not Black or African or Arab as we know it today, so trying to pigeon hole the people as modern Africans is just wrong.

 

Currently it's OK and in fact a good thing when a black actor plays a Skakespearean role but not OK and definitely a bad thing when a white actor plays (or intends to play) the role of a black character.

Double standards?

Equality doesn't only work in one direction.

 

As regards James Bond; It's just a code name for an operative, not an actual person and surely the character might be Black, Chinese or even female?

i.e. Jodie Whittaker makes an excellent Dr. Who (which until recently was stubbornly male) , IMHO one of the better ones we've had.

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

As regards James Bond; It's just a code name for an operative, not an actual person and surely the character might be Black, Chinese or even female?

I think Bond's always supposed to have been the same character, even if that character gets rebooted from time to time - all the character-specific cliches remain anyway (the Aston Martin, the Martinis and so on).

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

I think Bond's always supposed to have been the same character, even if that character gets rebooted from time to time - all the character-specific cliches remain anyway (the Aston Martin, the Martinis and so on).

 

Bond is Bond, not a code name, his code name is 007.

 

Anyone could be a 00 agent, when Bond retires there will be a new 007.

[MrWolf]

I see Bond as a caricature, which is what Fleming had in mind. His time working with the British secret service taught him that being a "spy" was far from glamorous. His character was the kind of person that the public believed a secret agent would be and it sold like crazy.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

As regards James Bond; It's just a code name for an operative, not an actual person and surely the character might be Black, Chinese or even female?

i.e. Jodie Whittaker makes an excellent Dr. Who (which until recently was stubbornly male) , IMHO one of the better ones we've had.

 

007 is the code name, currently occupied by James Bond.

JW is not bad as DW, but the writing is appalling. As to sex changing Timelords, Missy was excellent.

[Nick C]

I've never understood this idea of reshaping Bond to fit with modern values - why not simply choose one of the many other fictional spies out there to make a film about? or, for something really novel, actually write a new story with new characters!

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I've never understood this idea of reshaping Bond to fit with modern values - why not simply choose one of the many other fictional spies out there to make a film about? or, for something really novel, actually write a new story with new characters!

 

In theory, I agree. But in the real world, money talks. The film producers know that any new Bond film will sell. Creating a complete new brand is taking a risk.

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

In theory, I agree. But in the real world, money talks. The film producers know that any new Bond film will sell. Creating a complete new brand is taking a risk.

Making significant changes to an existing one is a risk as well, it risks putting off people who aren't impressed with trying to shoehorn something existing in to whatever new thing you want to create when they may be perfectly open to something completely new that fits that bill.

 

It's doable - sometimes a bit of a shakeup can be just what something that's been getting stale needs, but it's a path that needs walking cautiously.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Reorte

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Making significant changes to an existing one is a risk as well, it risks putting off people who aren't impressed with trying to shoehorn something existing in to whatever new thing you want to create when they may be perfectly open to something completely new that fits that bill.

 

It's doable - sometimes a bit of a shakeup can be just what something that's been getting stale needs, but it's a path that needs walking cautiously.

 

Very true. But that is changing the "brand" as well. It's one thing for the BBC, a non-commercial outfit, to have Dr Who regenerated as a woman (fits in with storyline) but quite another to alter the macho qualities of Bond (even if Fleming was being tongue in cheek. Bond would simply not work as a female role. I don't think it would matter at all if he was of different ethnicity. Adrian Lester does "suave" magnificently and would be my choice ahead of the much touted Idris Elba.

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, steve1 said:

 

Hmmm. By your logic, all Catholic priests are child abusers and no-one who lives in a bricks-and-mortar property ever committed a crime. Really?

 

In case you hadn't noticed, the thread is called Countering Hate, not Spreading Hate.

 

steve

You seem to have missed the point regarding what Crispy was referring to. Or you might not have the local knowledge regarding the situation. He put the name of the group in "" to make it clear as to the people he was referring to. He also named a fairly specific location. That makes it rather more precise. I do not know where you live but Crispy and myself publish our locations. If you had local knowledge you would be aware of very serious cases of modern slavery in the Leighton Buzzard area. That is about half way between where I live and where Crispy lives. You should be able to look up the police and court information on these cases.  Health warning. The details are quite shocking so view with care. 

I was called up for jury service once and one case involved some of these people and where they lived. I can't go into details but I can assure you that it was an eye opener.

Bernard

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

You seem to have missed the point regarding what Crispy was referring to. Or you might not have the local knowledge regarding the situation. He put the name of the group in "" to make it clear as to the people he was referring to. He also named a fairly specific location. That makes it rather more precise. I do not know where you live but Crispy and myself publish our locations. If you had local knowledge you would be aware of very serious cases of modern slavery in the Leighton Buzzard area. That is about half way between where I live and where Crispy lives. You should be able to look up the police and court information on these cases.  Health warning. The details are quite shocking so view with care. 

I was called up for jury service once and one case involved some of these people and where they lived. I can't go into details but I can assure you that it was an eye opener.

Bernard

 

Similarly, the three who were recently sentenced for the manslaughter of a policeman were from that community. They showed no contrition at all for their behaviour.

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Very true. But that is changing the "brand" as well. It's one thing for the BBC, a non-commercial outfit, to have Dr Who regenerated as a woman (fits in with storyline) but quite another to alter the macho qualities of Bond (even if Fleming was being tongue in cheek. Bond would simply not work as a female role. I don't think it would matter at all if he was of different ethnicity. Adrian Lester does "suave" magnificently and would be my choice ahead of the much touted Idris Elba.

Women can be womanisers as much as men can, women can also bed men with abandon but culturally it has always been that a male womaniser extols positive labels whereas a woman doing the same is a jezebal, a harlot or other more inappropriate for this forum slang.  Women spies are not uncommon neither are women who are fully capable of killing another person.

 

Bond is a character no different from any other, can be played by any race or sex, it is afterall the world in which Bond exists that is key to the success of the film and franchise.

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Women can be womanisers as much as men can, women can also bed men with abandon but culturally it has always been that a male womaniser extols positive labels whereas a woman doing the same is a jezebal, a harlot or other more inappropriate for this forum slang.  Women spies are not uncommon neither are women who are fully capable of killing another person.

 

Bond is a character no different from any other, can be played by any race or sex, it is afterall the world in which Bond exists that is key to the success of the film and franchise.

 

I have not come across Bond fans debating furiously the plots of the various films. They do debate which actor has been the "best Bond". So I would suggest that the film franchise does totally rely on Bond himself. It would be very brave for the producers to change the character too much.

 

One of the great ironies of the Bond character is his relationships with women. Is it a strength or a weakness for him?

[chris p bacon]

4 hours ago, steve1 said:

 

Hmmm. By your logic, all Catholic priests are child abusers and no-one who lives in a bricks-and-mortar property ever committed a crime. Really?

 

In case you hadn't noticed, the thread is called Countering Hate, not Spreading Hate.

 

steve

 

The comments were from my own personal experience of dealing with them over many years. I realise we should not tar all with the same brush  but you will find the culture among them is not one that you would recognise or be able to live with. It is a closed community  where the children are removed from school by the age of 12 (the settled community are subject to warnings and ultimately prison for such behaviour) , women are treated as 2nd class and the men are sexually aggresive towards any female who is not a traveller and there is no respect of the law or others. The various camps we have around us are gated and securely fenced so they are 'no go' areas for the Police. They have become large suppliers of class A drugs in the locality and are confident enough to be brazen about it.

 Since the start of lockdown I have had to warn off various travellers some 15+ times and told them to stay away from my elderly neighbours.  Last year my next door neighbours 14 year old daughter was subjected to a sexual assault by 2 traveller men who were goaded on by 2 traveller women (the Police think they were the wives) and even with CCTV evidence by the time the Police gained access to the site they had moved on and the Police were assaulted by other residents, My neighbours are now in the process of moving as the daughter still has nightmares. I could list a lot more but I doubt you'll take note.

 

 I would say that while you may not like my attitude towards them it has been formed over many years and I could not give one good experience of dealing with them, and I would venture to suggest that you have no or very little experience of them and their culture.  If you had then you would know what their attitude is to Mental health, homosexuality or those that wish to Transition.

 

 

4 hours ago, Neil said:

Ok folks, we've gone from countering hate to excusing hate. Please stop.

 

I did not say I excused myself, but you are not in my shoes or live where I do.  I am currently in the process of moving and they are a factor in that move.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have not come across Bond fans debating furiously the plots of the various films. They do debate which actor has been the "best Bond". So I would suggest that the film franchise does totally rely on Bond himself. It would be very brave for the producers to change the character too much.

 

One of the great ironies of the Bond character is his relationships with women. Is it a strength or a weakness for him?

Depends who film making companies see as the future audience of their output - if it is moving towards a woke female generation then a female Bond would appeal directly to that audience and make a lot of money.

[Reorte]

21 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Depends who film making companies see as the future audience of their output - if it is moving towards a woke female generation then a female Bond would appeal directly to that audience and make a lot of money.

But would it not be better to have a new character for that? Introduce her with Bond (definitely not being the typical Bond Girl) then spin off into her own films?

[MrWolf]

ChrisP, the same is true where I live. A favourite trick is to cause trouble in pubs, when asked to leave, they accuse the staff of racism and smash the place up. If and when the police arrive, they play the race card. If they are refused entry to a pub, they kick off and squeal racism, calling in a mob to protest. More time and taxpayers money wasted by having to get the police involved. We also have a big problem with class A drugs, the trail dead ends at armed camps or fortified mansions. The police are reluctant to act for fear of accusations of racism, never mind the expense of an armed response team and a helicopter.

Edited October 16, 2020 by MrWolf

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

But would it not be better to have a new character for that? Introduce her with Bond (definitely not being the typical Bond Girl) then spin off into her own films?

That did cross my mind, split the universe as it were, there would be a market for that I am sure.

 

I always expected Clara to end up with a spin off Dr Who series when she went up in the diner.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

 

Bond is Bond, not a code name, his code name is 007.

 

Anyone could be a 00 agent, when Bond retires there will be a new 007.

 

1 hour ago, MJI said:

 

007 is the code name, currently occupied by James Bond.

JW is not bad as DW, but the writing is appalling. As to sex changing Timelords, Missy was excellent.

I've obviously misinterpreted him right from Dr No.

I got the impression, especially from the films, that anyone could be James Bond as it wasn't the persons's real name.

 

There was an actual spy called James Bond, as some recently found identity papers revealed:

https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/the-names-bond-the-real-james-bond-documents-reveal-spy-called-james-bond-worked-at-british-embassy-in-warsaw-in-1960s-15931

 

We seemed to have drifted somewhat (how unusual for RMWEB) from hate speech.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Very true. But that is changing the "brand" as well. It's one thing for the BBC, a non-commercial outfit, to have Dr Who regenerated as a woman (fits in with storyline) but quite another to alter the macho qualities of Bond (even if Fleming was being tongue in cheek. Bond would simply not work as a female role. I don't think it would matter at all if he was of different ethnicity. Adrian Lester does "suave" magnificently and would be my choice ahead of the much touted Idris Elba.

 

Lester would make a good spy character.

[MJI]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

I've obviously misinterpreted him right from Dr No.

I got the impression, especially from the films, that anyone could be James Bond as it wasn't the persons's real name.

 

There was an actual spy called James Bond, as some recently found identity papers revealed:

https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/the-names-bond-the-real-james-bond-documents-reveal-spy-called-james-bond-worked-at-british-embassy-in-warsaw-in-1960s-15931

 

We seemed to have drifted somewhat (how unusual for RMWEB) from hate speech.

 

Pretty sure Bond is Bond but there are a lot of OO (found out OO not 00)

[Kickstart]

Hiya

 

Personally not sure a female James Bond would work without some fairly major changes to the character. Possibly could be done, but I think it would require an interim actor, and doubt that the franchise has that kind of long term planning.

 

That said, I am not keen on the current character. In the older films he was a gentleman who was prepared to be a thug, where now seems more a thug in a suit. Which is a fairly major character change. And it has lost some of the humour (although thankfully also lost the invisible cars, etc). Maybe the bike character had run its course, and the franchise holders were not prepared to give up on their cash cow.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Reorte]

I think those changes were tweaking to cash in on the success of the Bourne films, although I've also heard that they've produced a Bond that's closer to how he was originally written. But not even Bond has always been completely static, he's gone in slightly different directions with every actor who's played him (which isn't to say a very large change would automatically be fine).

[Kickstart]

Hiya

 

I suspect you are right. I like both, and think some of the gadgets had become a bit silly, but wish they hadn’t changed so much.

 

Maybe I just see the current Bond character as a nasty piece of work!

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Phil Parker]

6 minutes ago, Reorte said:

although I've also heard that they've produced a Bond that's closer to how he was originally written

 

With the exception of OHMSS, the books are very different to the films. I've always felt there is an opportunity to produce a separate series of films/TV series that follow the books very accurately. If you've never read them, they are worth it. Ideally try to get them in the right order as Bonds reaction to the death of Tracey makes more sense.