Proceedings of the Castle Aching Parish Council, 1905

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, they did, when James I & VI made peace with Spain, which is why the 17th century was they heyday of piracy; then again after the end of the War of the Spanish Succession in the 1730s.

 

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The love of pirates and piracy runs very deep in the British (specifically English?) psyche and culture. I don’t mean simply enjoying a fictional pirate, I mean condoning and worshipping a piratical attitude and way of behaving.

 

The idea of getting something for nothing, short-cutting hard work by scamming, gambling, dodging round the edges, outright criminality if you can get away with it, is integral to the thinking of many people right across society, but is especially core to people at the top (“above the law”) and people who perceive themselves not to have much if any stake in society (“it’s the only way I’ll ever get anywhere”).

 

I’d go as far as to say that our “natural estate” is piratical, probably only with effective legal protection for the property of a small propertied class, and against violence of a degree that threatens social order, in short something like the early C18th.

 

The “un-natural” bit, in our context, is an ordered, law-loving and law-abiding middle made up of skilled workers, “blue” and “white” collar to use outmoded terms, managers, technocrats, and professionals. A sort of entropic force operates, which tends to split that group into three: professionals who drift towards propertied piracy, wage-workers who drift towards property-less piracy, and leftovers which get trampled by both poles (not Poles, poles).

 

The English character really is early C18th I reckon, and we don’t have strong strands of self-discipline like the Scots or Germans.

 

I honestly thought my offspring would grow-up into a genuinely cosmopolitan and more-enlightened C21st, but sine about, oooh 2016 maybe, I’ve feared that they will be living in a tech-magnified version of 1720.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I fear you are right but I persist in believing that it's no excuse.

 

The alternative is to conclude that the Brexiteers are right: the English have no place in a community of civilised states.

 

Lots to unpack there, as trendy people say.

 

1. Pirates. In the Anglo-Saxon Eighteenth Century tended to proceed either (i) from unemployed sailors following a cessation of formal hostilities between nations or (ii) Privateers crews who crossed the line by attacking allied or neutral shipping. I only recall one instance of a gentleman amateur who woke up one morning to decide being a pirate captain would be a cool thing to do. It didn't end well.  Mind you, it never ended well; most pirates only managed 2-3 years of active career before the Royal Navy got them.  The seas are vast, but not that vast when routes and destinations are determined by the exigencies of trade and navigation in the age of sail.

 

2. Popularity. See also Highwaymen. Broadly similar period, also romanticised both at the time and in the Nineteenth Century, when the tropes really take hold.  OK so why? Bad/transgressive is always Cool and Sexy. A whole generation of teenagers has been obsessed in recent years with pale angsty teenage vampires. Same thing. Young Elizabeth Swan's fascination with pirates is one of the few elements of the Disney franchise that rings true. 

 

3. English character. In early modern times our repute internationally was of belligerent unruly drunkards. Perhaps that is why so much of the Empire was forged by "capable Scotsmen".   

 

4. Perhaps, then, a bloody minded distaste for authority (see WS Gilbert's "An English Tar ....") in the context of an hierarchical society with poor conditions and life chances for the majority meant that pirates and highwaymen, free to break rules and live as they chose, and get one over on "the wigs"* were the perfect anti-heroes for the early modern English. While living your long life of drudgery, you could at least fantasise about  "a short life, but a merry one".

 

5. As to whether the modern English are, or can become, the best versions of themselves, I remain inclined towards hope. 

 

* which I feel should be the C18th equivalent of "the suits"

[Nearholmer]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

As to whether the modern English are, or can become, the best versions of themselves, I remain inclined towards hope.

With me it depends a bit on the weather, and whether I’ve slept well.

 

Today experience is triumphing over hope, I’m afraid.

[alastairq]

All this sub-plot concerning piratical attitudes reminds me of the Royal Navy circa the Boney wars?

 

As I understand my researches [casual reading, ''this looks interesting'' stuff,'' whilst looking for something else] the Royal Navy was prone to supplementing meagre wages [sometimes called ''pay?''],  by legalised plunder. Namely bonuses, or 'bounty,' whereby every member of  a crew , [plus, their fleet commanders] got a monetary share of any vessels captured, and subsequently 'sold?'  [pro rata, of course]

I understand many a 'commander' [Admiral, pretty much always] around the turn of the 1800's and shortly afterwards, actually became millionaires as a result.   

 

[As I tried to explain to my son, the 'Captain' of a ship didn't necessarily have to be a captain. Confusingly, [in the Royal Navy] the same word can not only be a 'rank', but also a job description...with both actually having the possibility of being an entirely different thing]

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, alastairq said:

All this sub-plot concerning piratical attitudes reminds me of the Royal Navy circa the Boney wars?

 

As I understand my researches [casual reading, ''this looks interesting'' stuff,'' whilst looking for something else] the Royal Navy was prone to supplementing meagre wages [sometimes called ''pay?''],  by legalised plunder. Namely bonuses, or 'bounty,' whereby every member of  a crew , [plus, their fleet commanders] got a monetary share of any vessels captured, and subsequently 'sold?'  [pro rata, of course]

I understand many a 'commander' [Admiral, pretty much always] around the turn of the 1800's and shortly afterwards, actually became millionaires as a result.   

 

[As I tried to explain to my son, the 'Captain' of a ship didn't necessarily have to be a captain. Confusingly, [in the Royal Navy] the same word can not only be a 'rank', but also a job description...with both actually having the possibility of being an entirely different thing]

 

Prize money. The higher the rank, the greater the share. All ships in sight of the prize and the officer under whose command they sailed would generally partake.

 

'Captain' was both an honorific - e.g. a Lieutenant Commander captains a ship and may be addressed as such in that context, probably likewise a merchant captain, who would in fact be a Master - and a substantive RN rank. 

 

'Commodore', in the RN, was traditionally an appointment (held by a Post Captain), not a rank, but Admiral was a rank.

 

Clear?!?

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

15 minutes ago, alastairq said:

All this sub-plot concerning piratical attitudes reminds me of the Royal Navy circa the Boney wars?

 

As I understand my researches [casual reading, ''this looks interesting'' stuff,'' whilst looking for something else] the Royal Navy was prone to supplementing meagre wages [sometimes called ''pay?''],  by legalised plunder. Namely bonuses, or 'bounty,' whereby every member of  a crew , [plus, their fleet commanders] got a monetary share of any vessels captured, and subsequently 'sold?'  [pro rata, of course]

I understand many a 'commander' [Admiral, pretty much always] around the turn of the 1800's and shortly afterwards, actually became millionaires as a result.   

 

[As I tried to explain to my son, the 'Captain' of a ship didn't necessarily have to be a captain. Confusingly, [in the Royal Navy] the same word can not only be a 'rank', but also a job description...with both actually having the possibility of being an entirely different thing]

 

Prize Money

 

Awarded by a Prize Court and distributed proportionally amongst officers and men, with the officers getting more of the percentage!. More than one ship could benefit, I believe they just had to be within view of the action.

 

Distribution of Prize Money

 

According to the Wikipedia article, Prize Money in the Royal Navy  only ceased in 1918.

 

The "captain" of a ship is the bloke in charge, and can be of any commissioned rank, depending on the size of vessel.

 

Crossed with Edwardians post!

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Hroth
General tidying up

[rocor]

18 hours ago, Edwardian said:

RIP Vangelis

 

 

 

This music to me brings back memories of one day when I was working in a drawing office in the 1980s.  We, draughtsman were all silently at work hunched over our drawing boards, in the corner of the office, a secretary was photocopying a large stack of paperwork. The copier was producing its own rhythm track as it operated. Then one draughtsman begun whistling the Chariots of fire theme. Everyone instantly understood the connection, and cracked up laughing at once.

[Johnson044]

3 hours ago, alastairq said:

CAn you still get treatment for morals on the NHS?

I was hoping to get my conscience done on the NHS but fear I'll have to go private. I'm sure I'll be much happier without it.

 

All this talk of modern day despots made me start listening to Roger Waters again. 

 

 

[Johnson044]

Then I thought I should try to cheer myself up a bit.

 

Semaphore signals and Marmite on crumpets
Clerestory coaches and bold brazen strumpets
Indian motorbikes mended with string
These are a few of my favourite things
Old Manning Wardles, my wife’s rhubarb crumble
Badgers and otters and new tins of Humbrol
Sharp Stewart tenders with prominent springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Lost wax brass castings and other excesses
Birmingham Dribblers and Tri-ang Princesses
Kitmaster Stirlings, 3 rail Silver Kings
These are a few of my favourite things
When the dog s**s
When the kids fight
When I'm feeling sad
I simply remember my favourite things
And then I don't feel so bad.

 

[rocor]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

True enough, but a society that condones piracy - seduced by all the swashbuckling no doubt - is one where the rule of law has been abandoned. That cannot be good for lawyers and, I'm afraid, is exactly what we see with the current collapse of the criminal justice system.

 

“Rules are for the obeyance of plebs, and the guidance of their social betters”. 

 

Not quite the way that Harry Day, the Royal Flying Corps First World War fighter ace, coined it, but nevertheless the way that it is. 

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, Hroth said:

...whenever he wasn't directly employed by the Crown.

...and when he was!

 

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The love of pirates and piracy runs very deep in the British (specifically English?) psyche and culture.

 

Hmmmm...is it piracy, per se, or the Victorian romantised story which people love? An outsider underdog living and succeeding by wit and guile, at the expense of fat rich Continental merchants? See also love of highwayman, and the context of an outsider underdog country leaning rather heavily on wit and guile against larger and richer Continental countries. Not that the underdog narrative is true, but it is pervasive. I suspect it's that which we love, and which crops up in many areas under many guises.

 

Pirates = bunch of thieving murderous ****s. That sort of behaviour drew public fascination then as now. Not so sure about public love till after the C18th, though...perhaps the ever-closer links between 'value' and 'cost/wealth' in public perception are relevant, and a narrative kickback against the Industrial Revolution to an earlier happier time when all was individualism, floppy hats and gilding...? Also absolute tosh, but it's what we all think of when pirates are mentioned.

 

However, your wider point stands. Sadly.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Prize money. The higher the rank, the greater the share. All ships in sight of the prize and the officer under whose command they sailed would generally partake.

 

A form of performance-related pay.

[Nearholmer]

The “pirate attitude” is partly about having greater admiration for people who make a quick, and ideally large, buck by cheek, bravado, wit, ingenuity, showmanship, pulling a fast one etc  than for people who accumulate modest prosperity through rather dull, hard work and thrift.

 

Listen to BoJo. He oozes “buccaneer”, and that appeals to a wide constituency.

 

Its an attitude that ignores the inconvenient fact that 90%+ of people will never make even a half-decent income from swagger, but sells the illusion that anyone can, if only they are buccaneering enough. It’s a bit like The American Dream, but more stylish and with less outward machismo.

 

Its been said before that we are a nation of Cavaliers and Roundheads, and by gosh are those in charge currently a cavalier bunch.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

One man's buccaneer is another man's charlatan.

[rocor]

26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The “pirate attitude” is partly about having greater admiration for people who make a quick, and ideally large, buck by cheek, bravado, wit, ingenuity, showmanship, pulling a fast one etc  than for people who accumulate modest prosperity through rather dull, hard work and thrift.

 

Listen to BoJo. He oozes “buccaneer”, and that appeals to a wide constituency.

 

Its an attitude that ignores the inconvenient fact that 90%+ of people will never make even a half-decent income from swagger, but sells the illusion that anyone can, if only they are buccaneering enough. It’s a bit like The American Dream, but more stylish and with less outward machismo.

 

Its been said before that we are a nation of Cavaliers and Roundheads, and by gosh are those in charge currently a cavalier bunch.

 

The "buccaneer" spirit can be appealing to American dreamers of two opposing ideologies, having, with "stick it to the man" and "greed is good" as their mantras.

 

Regardless of the current members, and other supporting trusses holding fast to the current political structure at present, I do not think that I would enjoy a night out on the town with a modern Roundhead.

 

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, rocor said:

other supporting trusses holding fast to the current political structure at present

 

?

 

[rocor]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

?

 

 

Yes, intended, I am afraid so.

[Compound2632]

In the strict interests of political balance:

 

[rocor]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

In the strict interests of political balance:

 

 

Well, at least that one, has vowed to throw herself upon her leader's sword.

 

What is so badly wanted, A competent, red-headed, female political leader.

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In the strict interests of political balance:

 

 

Sensibly chosen picture with no legs on view. Apparently some people in politics are more susceptible than others.

[rocor]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Sensibly chosen picture with no legs on view. Apparently some people in politics are more susceptible than others.

 

Ditto, with my chosen image.

[Nearholmer]

Interestingly, Frau M is coming in for a bit of stick currently for having been too pally with Mr P, and not using her time to build firmer alliances within Europe.

 

Anyway, I’d certainly rather we had Mrs Sensible in charge than this bloke.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, rocor said:

I do not think that I would enjoy a night out on the town with a modern Roundhead.

The thing is, elections are about who you want to run the country, not who you think might be a laugh on a night out with the lads. Which may come as news to some.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

A good thing that Castle Aching Parish Council hasn't got Zoom.....

 

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The thing is, elections are about decided who you want to run the country, not who you think might be a laugh on a night out with the lads. Which may come as news to some.

 

I find that there is some conjugation between who I would want to run the country and those I could bear to spend time with. Certainly not those who would find great fun in performing abominable acts with a severed pig's head. 

 

So who are the modern Roundheads? IMHO those that would take everything that you say, lay it against a template, and if the sentiments expressed do not match said template, to an extreme degree of exactitude, have no compulsion to call you out on it. In one word, fanatics. 

 

When looking for such extremes in Cromwellian times, I came upon mention of the Clarendon Code, a series of four legal statutes passed between 1661-1665 (yes, post Cromwellian, this was under the reign of Charles the second), these suppressed the practices of religious minorities to a degree that can only be compared with the most extreme theocracies in the modern world.  

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by rocor
Not!!!!

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, rocor said:

When looking for such extremes in Cromwellian times, I came upon mention of the Clarendon Code, a series of four legal statutes passed between 1661-1665 (yes, post Cromwellian, this was under the reign of Charles the second), these suppressed the practices of religious minorities to a degree that can only be compared with the most extreme theocracies in the modern world.  

 

But by-and-large normal for 17th century Europe. Compare Louis XIV's Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, equally part of a programme to impose a state church.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Compound2632