Modelling the ATSF in 1970 in HO

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I'm learning a lot quickly, so I probably ought to come in to land for a bit:

 

5 hours ago, dave1905 said:

Mission creep.

 

You started with red and silver F units with stainless cars and are now at a waterfront theme.  Two completely different worlds that don't intersect.

 

If you want switching and war bonnets, I suggest Kansas City.  That would be a place that would have just about any industry and any passenger service you could want.  You can even have model railroad sized hills and river valleys.  Plus interchange with most of the midwestern roads (MP, CNW, UP, CRIP, CGW, MILW, MKT, NW, etc).

 

 

Valid point - I'm enjoying the contributions and ideas from across the board.  I find one way to make sure I'm happy with choices I'm making is through this kind of comparison, even if the routemap gets a bit confusing! 

 

So, my target of the Santa Fe in HO in 1970 is still good. 

 

There'll be less switching of passenger cars than in previous eras, but with a single garage being the biggest space I might ever have (and not for some years yet), an era with shorter passenger trains still makes sense.

 

11 minutes ago, Nick said:

For railroads in Kansas City, the West Bottoms area is really interesting, so is the Fairfax Industrial Area/Quindaro Yard.  Most of this is UP but all railroads ran in the area.

 

If thinking about more of a switching layout rather than a roundy layout, have you considered modelling a terminal association railroad?  In Wichita, the terminal association is supported by all the railroads in town and has a dedicated crew (train and rail maintenance).  However, the motive power is supplied by the owning railroads depending on how much of the traffic they generated for the terminal in the previous year.  If the ratio is 50% UP, 30% BN and 20% ATSF, the following year UP would provide motive power for 6 months of the year, BN power for 4 months and SF for 2 months.  A lot of times the power donated to the terminal is older power which makes for interesting viewing.  Much larger terminal railroads may justify their own dedicated locomotives.  BTW, back in the day, when Wichita had a railroad depot downtown, it was run by the terminal association, meaning that any passenger cars being moved were moved by terminal crews.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

 

I do however have two competing ideas in my head.

 

On the one hand, I really like urban settings - street running for freight switching and impressive terminal buildings for passenger trains.

 

That theme inspired my Cakebox diorama last year (though the street track didn't make the final model), and the Union Station Diorama I'm slowly working on - but is now paused while I work through the next phase.

 

On the other hand, I like the southern mid-west modelled in the MR Project Layout I've referred to and, in an example I've not yet mentioned in this thread, in an Iain Rice plan featured on the cover of his Kalmbach Shelf Layouts book.  These plans have inspired some of my UK ideas, so it's no surprise they top my list here too.

 

At the moment I don't have space for a permanent layout, so I'm looking at ways to model something compact at the moment.  Flat scenery and portable baseboards however do tend to work well together.

 

Kansas has been mentioned more than once and, as the birthplace of the ATSF, is where I'll head next.    

 

[pH]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

One of the sites I like is the “fallen flags” one, but it’s been taken over and is riddled with adverts now, which strains my patience.

 

There’s another ‘fallen flags’ site, fortunately without adverts:

 

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org

I’d presume there will be some overlap, but I’m sure there are many pictures unique to each site. 
 

 

[EmporiaSub]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

At the moment I don't have space for a permanent layout, so I'm looking at ways to model something compact at the moment.  Flat scenery and portable baseboards however do tend to work well together.

 

Kansas has been mentioned more than once and, as the birthplace of the ATSF, is where I'll head next.    

 

You can't go wrong with some prairie skyscrapers (grain elevators) and a few PS-2CD 4427 Covered Hoppers....

[dave1905]

Kansas City area isn't necessarily flat, there are some pretty steep bluffs in the area and especially on a small layout a 100 ft high hill will dwarf the layout.    When you get out around wichita  or southern Kansas, yes, its a pancake.  Wichita also has a significant oil industry, plus aerospace.  Kansas City has ANY industry you could want (except ocean going vessels).

[Keith Addenbrooke]

11 hours ago, Northroader said:

Lastly, the soundest suggestion has come from Allegheny1600, using the layout type as done by Peter North, a simple oval type run with limited sidings, where you could have your warbonnet with a couple of passenger cars, and a geep with a few freight cars. Tailoring this setting with appropriate scenery could fit damn near any American line. Give me a bit of time and I’ll do an edit with photos and notes I took at an exhibition 25 years ago.

”Keep it simple” is the best possible advice anyone could have.

 

Thanks for this - to acknowledge the edit with notes and photos: the very fact these small layouts are still relevant and remembered quarter of a century later shows the impact they had - by getting the atmosphere right.  Excellent.

[Yardman]

On 10/11/2020 at 18:57, Keith Addenbrooke said:

A plan is starting to emerge (thank you all for the help), but I could do with some advice to confirm the identity of this rather fine unit:

 

 

Please forgive the rushed photo - and the ballasting (It’s an OO layout where I was using up some oversized ballast).  I have to wait for the end of the month to receive this properly but, as a second-hand unit, it made sense to test it and get it running before it was hidden away.

 

It looks to me like a GP9 - which would be perfect, but from what I can find out from a quick internet search, ATSF 8517 was a six-axle U33C.  I’ve found other photos of this HO Athearn model with the same number, suggesting it has not been renumbered.  The box it came in is an Athearn blue box, but labelled as a UP GP9.

 

My general research question is this: did numbers sometimes get swapped between ATSF locos, are some models less likely to have correct numbers, or is there an explanation I’ve not thought of?  It could be useful to know for future reference.
 

(After my birthday I can think about curing the light bleed beneath the cab.  I did need to remove the body to get it running as the connector clip was loose, but the retailer confirmed they’d tested it before posting so I was confident it wasn’t a big problem, and it glides beautifully now.  It needs couplers - I knew they were missing.  For £45 plus shipping from a reputable store I took the plunge).

 

 

 

 

This looks like an early Athearn GP7 in the pre 72 paint scheme. They were fairly generic in those days. As far as I am aware the Santa Fe never owned any GP7's with a winterisation hatch or boiler equipped, but I haven't checked data so this would need to be looked at. Far better Santa Fe GP's are available now both in detail accuracy and running characteristics. The early units were also too wide in the hood to accommodate the motors of the time. These motors were also quite power hungry. something to bear in mind if you are going DCC.

The Santa Fe carried out several renumbering schemes through the years so it would depend on your modelling period what numbers the units carried.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, Yardman said:

This looks like an early Athearn GP7 in the pre 72 paint scheme. They were fairly generic in those days. As far as I am aware the Santa Fe never owned any GP7's with a winterisation hatch or boiler equipped, but I haven't checked data so this would need to be looked at. Far better Santa Fe GP's are available now both in detail accuracy and running characteristics. The early units were also too wide in the hood to accommodate the motors of the time. These motors were also quite power hungry. something to bear in mind if you are going DCC.

The Santa Fe carried out several renumbering schemes through the years so it would depend on your modelling period what numbers the units carried.

Thank you - I’d not realised the ‘yellow warbonnet’ livery started to be introduced as soon as 1972 till I saw this post.

 

I’m thinking a long-term upgrade plan to move to DCC may be a good target to have, so this is good advice.  It is also an incentive to keep a small roster for now, and to focus on getting a first diorama / module / compact layout under my belt.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[F-UnitMad]

4 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

the very fact these small layouts are still relevant and remembered quarter of a century later

Oi!! Stop making us feel old!!!  

 

I still have most of the CM articles of Peter North's layouts.

[alastairq]

55 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I still have most of the CM articles of Peter North's layouts.

Wish I did now...

[Yardman]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Thank you - I’d not realised the ‘yellow warbonnet’ livery started to be introduced as soon as 1972 till I saw this post.

 

I’m thinking a long-term upgrade plan to move to DCC may be a good target to have, so this is good advice.  It is also an incentive to keep a small roster for now, and to focus on getting a first diorama / module / compact layout under my belt.

I think the warbonnet scheme was started on freight units after Amtrak came into being in May71 and Passenger units became redundant  although Amtrak continued to use SF Warbonnet F's until their own power became available. Attached is a photo of an SF GP7. (from a pal in the states).  It should be noted most GP7/9's were rebuilt with chopped noses and sometimes a Topeka cab when they received the yellowbonnet scheme.

[skipepsi]

Would anyone be able to give reasonable last in service dates for the black and silver livery GP7's/GP9's?

Thanks

Mick

[dave1905]

1960 (but there were probably stragglers that would extend that a year or two.)

 

https://www.liquisearch.com/atsf/paint_schemes_and_markings/diesel_locomotives_freight

[EmporiaSub]

Another informative link with regards to Santa Fe diesels:-

 

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/CrossetGene/ATSF_master_diesel_roster/index.htm

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I think the Roster list has come up twice, sorted once by numbers and once by loco type:

 

On 10/11/2020 at 20:24, mdvle said:

 

This site (if accurate) seems to indicate the number is wrong

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/CrossetGene/ATSF_all-time diesel roster/index.htm

 

 

5 minutes ago, EmporiaSub said:

Another informative link with regards to Santa Fe diesels:-

 

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/CrossetGene/ATSF_master_diesel_roster/index.htm

For cross-referencing this is really helpful; I know if I have a list written one way I’ll soon wish I had it written the other way too.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I spent an hour or so last night re-reading the contributions to this thread so far and checking I've got all the links and suggestions of places I might explore.  It's been a huge encouragement, thank you. 

 

I've found @James Hilton's new thread in the "Work in Progress" part of this Forum helpful too: his planning process for the Halifax and South Western Railway in HO has some really useful pointers.

 

So my plan now is to disappear off on a (virtual) field-trip for a bit and then return with some module / layout ideas.  I also have three books on order for the end of the month (it's my birthday), and I have Steve Glischinski's "Santa Fe Railway" to read before then.  I've been greatly blessed by a very generous donation of some perfect rolling stock that's on it's way, plus the GP7 now in hiding, and the caboose I need to get delivered.

 

The project has really taken off, but now I need to go and do some more homework.  I think it helps that I can't dive in too quickly and start on any baseboards: I wouldn’t want to buy wood on "Click and Collect" as there'd be no knowing what the quality of any individual pieces might be, and the small outhouse / workshop I have is now too cold for anything other than quick visits.  But it's all looking good so far.  Keith.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Northroader]

And here’s a link to information on short passenger trains, including an ATSF one. https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/view/11485315/pike-size-passenger-trains

[Robatron86]

Hi all! Bit late to the party, but did someone say 1970's Santa Fe? 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Robatron86

[Keith Addenbrooke]

The first part of this thread opened up a number of avenues for me to explore for a long-term project, but with other projects paused there’s an incentive to press on with a compact layout idea here (I've taken note of observations made by Lance Mindheim on the value of practice; see: Practice Plank RR in MR , hat tip @Wendell1976 and @Prof Klyzlr ).  I don’t have a permanent space, but could pick up just one small part of the Santa Fe as a portable alternative for the space identified for my UK layout, using an ‘entry level’ approach while I play ‘catch-up’.  I can progress onwards later, as recommended earlier in the thread.

 

I found an ATSF plan from years ago by Don Mitchell in Kalmbach’s “58 Track Planning Ideas” that included a couple of proto-freelanced New Mexico branch lines and I’ve modified one to make a small stand-alone switching layout.  It’s important for me that trains “go somewhere”, but I can have a 48” single track staging spur (removable) into a doorway to achieve this - an idea I saw most recently on @EmporiaSub 's blog site:

 

 

I believe that Stock Car traffic continued until 1972, although on a much reduced scale.  So I can add that into the mix for a rural branch line, which is how I envisage this.

 

My key question now is: which car spots might go where?  I wouldn’t naturally put a fuel depot next to a stock pen, or a stock pen next to a Depot, for example.  Also, which industry would be least inconvenienced on a Switchback?  In Mitchell’s plan he had a small furniture factory there – his industries were basically made-up generic ones.  Thus far, I've not found enough photos online to be sure I'm making reasonable assumptions.

 

My first thought for the lower baseboard was a small town scene with some street running, but it might look a bit contrived - might it be a better place for a grain elevator on the edge of town?

 

I’ve also got two locations for a possible Depot – I’m assuming there’s still a mixed train (or very occasional local), though I’d imagine a petition to abandon the Service would have been submitted some time previously.

 

Taking my cue from recent posts on @Robatron86's thread, Underpass, LA, 1976  I've checked the spur lengths with the rolling stock I have, and am happy with what I can fit given the space constraint:

 

 

I realise the switchback does look a bit “Malcolm Furlow” but it is how Don Mitchell had it – and it avoids points on baseboard joints.  I have checked my geometry with a track planning program (hence the spurious accuracy in some measurements).

 

In some senses I’m running ahead of myself – I’ve not decided on a location, though Kansas, Oklahoma or New Mexico may fit, but this kind of schematic ticks enough boxes for me to share it.  Although there are some very impressive ISL’s and Inglenooks around, this was the idea that jumped out at me.

 

The space isn’t wide enough to include a dummy main line to display a passing streamliner – my Union Station Diorama (in progress) will have to remain the place for that for now.  A 24” min. Rad. rules out a continuous run, and I’d be content with some Code 100 track I have as practice before buying Code 83 / 70.

 

For those members of the Forum I've been asking about background or low-relief buildings, I hope this now explains my questions.  As always, I'm open to any thoughts and suggestions.  Thanks, Keith.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[GP9u]

I think this will be a lot of fun to operate!   Might a diamond be an alternative to the switchback?  I think you could keep it all to the right of the "B" section joint.  Diamonds can impart a bit of a North American Railroad-y feel imho.   

 

Pete 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

10 hours ago, GP9u said:

I think this will be a lot of fun to operate!   Might a diamond be an alternative to the switchback?  I think you could keep it all to the right of the "B" section joint.  Diamonds can impart a bit of a North American Railroad-y feel imho.   

 

Pete 

Thanks - excellent suggestion.  It may just be a bit too tight to fit in the extra switch on the run-round track but I’ll try it out.  It would be better operationally.
 

In one iteration I looked at joining the two baseboards together to eliminate the joint, but the resultant combined board at 6’4” was getting a bit too long (I have to carry it up and down a ‘dog-leg’ staircase when the layout space is not in use).

Edited November 24, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[EmporiaSub]

I try to avoid switchbacks where possible, they seem unreal as they are generally too short, as it could mean having to move a car that is being unloaded by another industry.

[alastairq]

Dunno if the OP has seen this, but looks like a bit of a bargin?

Facebook group,

.

 

 

Quote

Centralia Santa Fe CE2 Caboose

£35  · 

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/123701369365973?ref=share_attachment

 

 

It's not mine, but thought it might suit this thread??

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

Dunno if the OP has seen this, but looks like a bit of a bargin?

Facebook group,

.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/123701369365973?ref=share_attachment

 

 

It's not mine, but thought it might suit this thread??

Looks very suitable and in excellent condition from the photo (factory sealed still).  A bit beyond my own budget, but definitely worth flagging up (I’m not a big Facebook user so I wouldn’t have seen it).   Fortunately I should be sorted for a couple of cabooses, which is all I need, but thank you for flagging this up - much appreciated, Keith.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[EmporiaSub]

50 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Looks very suitable......

Rebuilt from other Waycars (as the Santa Fe used to refer to Caboose as) between 1969 and 1970.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I’ve been trying to find out when Mixed Trains last ran on Santa Fe Branches?
 

 I’ve seen an out of print book: “Coach, Cabbage and Caboose”* that is subtitled “A 100 year history of Santa Fe Mixed Train Service from 1869 - 1971” but I’m now wondering if the end date just refers to the start of the Amtrak era?

 

I’ve found references to mixed trains up to the 1960s, but most internet leads take me to the demise of trains from Williams to The Grand Canyon (really a tourist branch) after the 1968 season.

 

(*I believe Cabbage was possibly used to refer to the passenger cars used in mixed trains, but I’m not sure if it meant the combines, some of which I believe were a dark shade of red rather than green).