Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class

[Legend]

15 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Perhaps there is a shortage of serious modellers or many buyers are afraid to alter a model which might devalue it. That could apply to those who don't actually model pre-group/LNWR and just bought it because it is "pretty" and may sell it after a while to fund the next on trend model  purchase.

 

Exactly right . The advent of very expensive models , and this one was originally £220, means people are reluctant to change anything .  1. it will affect resale value  2. These models are so high fidelity /fragile that doing anything on them may look like a bodge compared to the superb factory finish.

[Andy Hayter]

33 minutes ago, Helmdon said:

 

I've been thinking about this - how Lucknow sold out so quickly and the others didn't. I wonder if it was a combination of serious modellers not wanting the white roof, people really wanting Hardwicke but not twigging it was available elsewhere (ie seeing that a Precedent was being made and ordering the first LNWR black one they saw in the Rails advert...) or what?

 

It just seems very odd that Lucknow could apparently have sold a few more, and all the others are/were hanging around a bit more.

 

Obviously, as a Lucknow owner, it doesn't really affect me!

 

What we don't know in all of this musing and speculation, is how many of each variant were made.

 

If for the sake of argument 6000 were made; 3000 to Locomotion and 1000 each of the LNWR, LMS and BR versions, then it is less of a surprise that some models went faster than others.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

Exactly right . The advent of very expensive models , and this one was originally £220, means people are reluctant to change anything .  1. it will affect resale value  2. These models are so high fidelity /fragile that doing anything on them may look like a bodge compared to the superb factory finish.

 

That reminds me - I really should get round to fitting the coal rails to the tender of my Lucknow. Waiting for those 247 Developments plates so that it can be transformed into John Bright!

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

or many buyers are afraid to alter a model which might devalue it.

I suspect devaluing and risking damage are the main reasons. I bought it with the full intention of devaluing it 😆

I was tempted to devalue another when I saw the offer!

[Methuselah]

I'm a tad hazy - apart from name, number and white roof, were there not some other differences reflecting Hardwick as preserved. i.e - not correct for pre-1923...?

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Methuselah said:

I'm a tad hazy - apart from name, number and white roof, were there not some other differences reflecting Hardwick as preserved. i.e - not correct for pre-1923...?

 

The LNWR didn't alter their locos a lot so the preserved Hardwick is pretty much as built.

 

As far as I can see from the photos on the NRM Locomotion site, the main differences are the washout plugs on the boiler, the lamp irons (sockets on the LNWR) and the white roof. Many Improved Precedents would still have had Webb buffers at the grouping, not the later Whale version on the model.

[brumtb]

21 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The LNWR didn't alter their locos a lot so the preserved Hardwick is pretty much as built.

 

As far as I can see from the photos on the NRM Locomotion site, the main differences are the washout plugs on the boiler, the lamp irons (sockets on the LNWR) and the white roof. Many Improved Precedents would still have had Webb buffers at the grouping, not the later Whale version on the model.

Also Hardwick has tender coal rails which Lucknow doesn't.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, brumtb said:

Also Hardwick has tender coal rails which Lucknow doesn't.

 

Lucknow represents pre-1895 or "as built (rebuilt)" condition. Coal rails were fitted to 1,800 gal tenders from May 1895, with most tenders attached to passenger engines having received them by early 1896 [E. Talbot, An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines (OPC, 1985)]. Hence my comment a few posts ago about being reminded to devalue my model!

 

I've no idea if it's known whether Hardwicke was running with a tender with coal rails in August 1895.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[brumtb]

After buying Lucknow, I got a Hardwick, swapped tenders and then sold Hardwick on again.

So now have Lucknow in post 1895 condition just waiting for 247 Developments to produce their etched names and numbers.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, brumtb said:

After buying Lucknow, I got a Hardwick, swapped tenders

 

The buffers! The buffers!

[wombatofludham]

Trying to work out what livery was in use when from Essery and jenkinson is a bit of a marathon, but from what I can see "Harwicke" might still have been in LNWR condition when "Novelty" had been repainted into the really rather pretty LMS Crimson, at least for a year or so.  Thing is, anyone able to eye-witness those days will probably be dead now, so for my planned North Wales LMS branch line I feel confident I will be able to run the two bargain Precedents together once I've repainted the roof black, plus "Hardwicke" was main line certified in 1975 so might yet turn up on a wine and dine service in amongst the 86s and 87s.

I admire those who go for absolute fidelity but I sometimes think we're in danger of overthinking things when the available research material isn't crystal clear.  But I'm more of an "impressionist" than "Dutch Master" when it comes to modelling.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, wombatofludham said:

Trying to work out what livery was in use when from Essery and jenkinson is a bit of a marathon, but from what I can see "Harwicke" might still have been in LNWR condition when "Novelty" had been repainted into the really rather pretty LMS Crimson, at least for a year or so.  

 

But that LNWR condition could well have been unlined black, which was the economy style during the Great War and for several years after, even for the top express passenger engines. It all depends on dates of heavy overhauls.

[wombatofludham]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

But that LNWR condition could well have been unlined black, which was the economy style during the Great War and for several years after, even for the top express passenger engines. It all depends on dates of heavy overhauls.

Quite probably, but I'm sticking with LNWR lined livery!

Let's face it, I was thinking of getting one to rename and renumber as "Sister Dora" which had 6 inch smaller diameter wheels, so the rule of IMFR is strong with me!

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Sister Dora was a Whitworth, with 6' 3" wheels as you point out.

 

I have one built from the LRM kit. The main visible differences are the smaller splashers as well as the lower height of the valance  between the splashers and the frames  ahead of the front splashers.

 

[brumtb]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The buffers! The buffers!

Ah well, there's something else to look at then!  When were the buffers changed?  Lucknow hopefully won't be Lucknow for much longer as I understand it was withdrawn in 1919 and I'd  prefer one with a little longer life.

Edited March 21, 2023 by brumtb
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[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, brumtb said:

Ah well, there's something else to look at then!  When were the buffers changed?  Lucknow hopefully won't be Lucknow for much longer as I understand it was withdrawn in 1919 and I'd  prefer one with a little longer life.

 

During or after the Great War, by the look of it:

https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p543111821

Most but not all of the engines here that have Whale buffers are in plain black. But there's at least one example with Webb buffers in the early 20s. And with the LNWR policy on tenders, there's no doubt a reasonable chance of the tender buffers not being the same type as those on the engine.

[Butler Henderson]

The white roof Hardwicke has gone back to £220 but Locomotion were selling them at £180 at York. Turned into an expensve purchase as besides the new tin of Humbrol matt black for the roof it looked wrong attached to a coach and needed an additional purchase of a 1000, found one on eBay £50 cheaper than the rest on their due to the slightly damaged box.

[PeterH]

On 13/04/2023 at 12:28, Butler Henderson said:

The white roof Hardwicke has gone back to £220 but Locomotion were selling them at £180 at York. Turned into an expensve purchase as besides the new tin of Humbrol matt black for the roof it looked wrong attached to a coach and needed an additional purchase of a 1000, found one on eBay £50 cheaper than the rest on their due to the slightly damaged box.

 
790 and 1000 a very nice pairing!

[TheEngineShed]

Precedent Sale

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/lnwr-precedent-class