Illegal mains plug?.....possibly lethal

[Joseph_Pestell]

41 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Possibly not in the winter? When We had an air-source heat pump installed, the year-round average efficiency was reckoned around 200% or a little less; OK, but not spectacular. The heat pumps are very good at heating water for your shower in summer and not so good at heating your house in winter. 

 

They should be good at heating the house so long as you have enough radiators or, much better, underfloor heating.

 

But still not as cheap as mains gas if you are buying electricity from the grid. It was the best solution for us as we would have been using bottled gas, oil or wood pellets otherwise.

 

The ideal, of course, is to run the heat pump from electricity that you are generating yourself and get paid for through feed-in tariff.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, giz said:

I don't think much was made public for legal reasons. I found this on the internet but it dates from before the systems were removed:

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/another-landlord-hit-by-heat-pump-problems-35637

 

 

The article isn't really conclusive, other than the problem of high bills for the tenants. 

The housing association admits there is a problem, but their spokesperson says "that the fault did not lie with the technology".  The maker of the heat pump blames the installation (wrong size/wrong specifications for the houses).   Nobody else presents their case as to what is wrong.     

Digging to other articles on the same site, and "bad installation" and "poor house insulation" seems to come up regularly as an issue:  ie. buildings are designed and constructed (ie. thermal errors in construction) to poor standards in the UK, then we install high-power heating systems to overcome the heat-leaks in the low quality building.   

 

[RedgateModels]

I'll stick to my gas fired warm air heating, it's great, house up to temperature in 15 mins

 

I guess I'll have to get a condenser fitted once the old girl gives up the ghost, but as that means a big hole dug under the existing boiler for more pipework etc then for now the 16 year old Johnson & Starley will be staying  

 

Just been serviced and clean bill of health, unlike one of the ducts under the kitchen floor which I have to attend to when I re-do the kitchen next year. Floor needs replacing in parts anyway due to a water leak last year, so may as well rip it all up and start again .....

[Guy Rixon]

21 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The article isn't really conclusive, other than the problem of high bills for the tenants. 

The housing association admits there is a problem, but their spokesperson says "that the fault did not lie with the technology".  The maker of the heat pump blames the installation (wrong size/wrong specifications for the houses).   Nobody else presents their case as to what is wrong.     

Digging to other articles on the same site, and "bad installation" and "poor house insulation" seems to come up regularly as an issue:  ie. buildings are designed and constructed (ie. thermal errors in construction) to poor standards in the UK, then we install high-power heating systems to overcome the heat-leaks in the low quality building.   

 

Heat pumps circulate cooler water than conventional boilers, as their efficiency drops as the output temperature rises. This needs bigger pipes to transfer the heat. Any retrofit of a heat pump to a property with heating pipes of 15 mm dimeter or less won't move the heat properly. Such was the verdict of the team who our installed our heat pump, and they proceeded to rip out all the pipes and refit. There's a bodge with a higher-pressure pump for circulation, but our crew said that it doesn't work properly.

[giz]

19 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The article isn't really conclusive, other than the problem of high bills for the tenants. 

The housing association admits there is a problem, but their spokesperson says "that the fault did not lie with the technology".  The maker of the heat pump blames the installation (wrong size/wrong specifications for the houses).   Nobody else presents their case as to what is wrong.     

Digging to other articles on the same site, and "bad installation" and "poor house insulation" seems to come up regularly as an issue:  ie. buildings are designed and constructed (ie. thermal errors in construction) to poor standards in the UK, then we install high-power heating systems to overcome the heat-leaks in the low quality building.   

 

As I said, the article is from an early stage and the true causes were never made public.

 

Government policy appears to be to install heat pump technology into the existing housing stock. If we can't do it properly in new houses, what chance is there with the wide variety of designs and insulation standards of old houses?

[Tankerman]

2 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

Possibly not in the winter? When We had an air-source heat pump installed, the year-round average efficiency was reckoned around 200% or a little less; OK, but not spectacular. The heat pumps are very good at heating water for your shower in summer and not so good at heating your house in winter. 

 

There are other costs to be considered as well. Things may well have changed since I retired as an insurance company engineer surveyor in 2011, but my experience of such systems over many years was that the average service life of such units, when used in a similar fashion for commercial premises, was eight years. I don't know the current coat of these, but in 2010 they were around £2,000 £3,000 per unit.

[gordon s]

Funny thing RMweb.
 

You start off with a dodgy 3 pin plug from China and 6 pages later talking about heat pumps...

 

‘One small step’ had nothing on a forum....

[MarkC]

52 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Funny thing RMweb.
 

You start off with a dodgy 3 pin plug from China and 6 pages later talking about heat pumps...

 

‘One small step’ had nothing on a forum....

You get a better class of Thread Drift on RMWeb

 

Mark

[Nick C]

I had an electric boiler in my old flat (which didn't have a gas supply) - it was basically a long coil wrapped around a 22mm copper pipe so that it heated the water flowing through it, which then circulated through radiators as normal. 3kW if I remember correctly, and seemed to work fine.

[Crosland]

14 hours ago, AndyID said:

Another interesting factoid that I only discovered recently. If you are swimming and you get an electric shock it's much better to be in salt water than fresh water. In salt water the water is the conductor. In fresh water you are the conductor.

 

If whatever shocks you pierces the skin you also become a much better conductor, for similar reasons.

[Crosland]

6 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

Possibly not in the winter? When We had an air-source heat pump installed, the year-round average efficiency was reckoned around 200% or a little less; OK, but not spectacular. The heat pumps are very good at heating water for your shower in summer and not so good at heating your house in winter. 

In some climates you have to go out and clear the ice off the external vent in winter :-(

[Nigelcliffe]

11 minutes ago, Crosland said:

In some climates you have to go out and clear the ice off the external vent in winter :-(

 

Or have a better specification heat pump with automatic de-icing built into it.   

There's lots of badly installed heating systems in the UK, see all the grief with condensing boilers about 20 years ago:  I recall some of those icing up drain pipes :-(.  

 

I expect "cheapest-possible" and "not understood the instructions" installations to be done all over the place, with poor performance for their owners.  

 

 

- Nigel

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, gordon s said:

Funny thing RMweb.
 

You start off with a dodgy 3 pin plug from China and 6 pages later talking about heat pumps...

 

‘One small step’ had nothing on a forum....

In fact with energy consumption discussions in a similar vein on the HS2 thread, now is the time to merge them , maybe not .

[Crosland]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

see all the grief with condensing boilers about 20 years ago:  I recall some of those icing up drain pipes :-(.  

 

Yes  And corroding condensers were rife in some brands.

 

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

I expect "cheapest-possible" and "not understood the instructions" installations to be done all over the place, with poor performance for their owners.  

 

Subsidised at tax-payers expense of course

 

It's the same with the push for insulation, a lot of it grant aided. Get it wrong and you will cause condensation/damp. Then you can call in the dodgy damp remedy providers   

 

[BoD]

1 hour ago, Crosland said:

 

It's the same with the push for insulation, a lot of it grant aided. Get it wrong and you will cause condensation/damp. Then you can call in the dodgy damp remedy providers   

 

Altogether now....

 

Twas on a Monday morning

the gasman came to call ......

[bradfordbuffer]

7 hours ago, MarkC said:

You get a better class of Thread Drift on RMWeb

 

Mark

Wow thread drift on rm web.....I only came on for the shock factor....

Sorry

[Damo666]

12 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

The article isn't really conclusive, other than the problem of high bills for the tenants. 

The housing association admits there is a problem, but their spokesperson says "that the fault did not lie with the technology".  The maker of the heat pump blames the installation (wrong size/wrong specifications for the houses).   Nobody else presents their case as to what is wrong.     

Digging to other articles on the same site, and "bad installation" and "poor house insulation" seems to come up regularly as an issue:  ie. buildings are designed and constructed (ie. thermal errors in construction) to poor standards in the UK, then we install high-power heating systems to overcome the heat-leaks in the low quality building.   

 

 

I would not be surprised if part of the issue is the workmanship, and the main contractor was a 'normal' building contractor asked to build to Passive House or some other enhanced standard to which they were unfamiliar.

 

I've experience of clients wanting the most efficient design but choosing the cheapest contractor, who in turn says "That's the way we've always built in, no need to put that in".

 

Not saying that's what happened here though as I don;t know the details.

[Damo666]

11 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

I'll stick to my gas fired warm air heating, it's great, house up to temperature in 15 mins

 

I guess I'll have to get a condenser fitted once the old girl gives up the ghost, but as that means a big hole dug under the existing boiler for more pipework etc then for now the 16 year old Johnson & Starley will be staying  

 

Just been serviced and clean bill of health, unlike one of the ducts under the kitchen floor which I have to attend to when I re-do the kitchen next year. Floor needs replacing in parts anyway due to a water leak last year, so may as well rip it all up and start again .....

I got a new Johnson & Starley installed about 10 years ago to replace the old one which broke down just before we moved into the house. Great the way the house can be heated so quickly, within minutes.

 

And also love the fact that we don't have any horrible radiators hanging off the walls.

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

It's the same with the push for insulation, a lot of it grant aided.

 

The previous owner our house had cavity wall insulation installed using a grant, the chosen medium was Rockwool.

Having had the rear wall cavity exposed during some work, we found there was absolutely zero infil in that wall, not even a trace, from top to bottom.

There was a neat row of filled drill holes on the exterior wall, showing that it was supposed to have be done, so one assumes the cowboys drilled the holes, put the nozzles in and made some noise but didn't actually pump in any Rockwool.

I even found the front wall was only half filled.

So some shysters getting rich on taxpayer money.

Edited December 10, 2020 by melmerby

[RedgateModels]

10 hours ago, Damo666 said:

I got a new Johnson & Starley installed about 10 years ago to replace the old one which broke down just before we moved into the house. Great the way the house can be heated so quickly, within minutes.

 

And also love the fact that we don't have any horrible radiators hanging off the walls.

 

Yeah it's great. My Gran had the same system installed in her purpose built bungalow when I was a kid. It brings back good memories too

 

We were concerned about fuel economy etc when we were buying the house, but was surprised how little gas we used in the first 6 months. Only thing is that we would like some new floor vents but the only supplier that we have found with the right size is in the USA and does not ship internationally

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

The previous owner our house had cavity wall insulation installed using a grant, the chosen medium was Rockwool.

Having had the rear wall cavity exposed during some work, we found there was absolutely zero infil in that wall, not even a trace, from top to bottom.

There was a neat row of filled drill holes on the exterior wall, showing that it was supposed to have be done, so one assumes the cowboys drilled the holes, put the nozzles in and made some noise but didn't actually pump in any Rockwool.

I even found the front wall was only half filled.

So some shysters getting rich on taxpayer money.

A friend of mine moved into a newish house and his daughter complained that her bedroom was cold. He rang the owner to complain and was informed that insulation was installed in the roof space, just before they moved in.

So he stuck his head up and discovered that was true.  However the installer had clearly stood on a ladder with the hose, because there was a circle of insulation about 2.5 metres centred around the manhole!

The poor girls room was well away from the manhole.