1860 UK denomination

[pH]

4 hours ago, TheQ said:

But course 4d was a Groat, but they had only been made 1835-55 , because the threepenny bit,  became much more popular..

Groats had been around for a long time before 1835. I think those dates are the last years there were any minted. Wikipedia says there were groats in circulation in Scotland into the 20th century - I know my gran kept at least one. (That’s a groat, not a goat! ) 

 

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Not forgetting Ha'penny, Farthing and Sovereign!

And the half-sovereign. My gran had some of those, too.

 

(Edit - since when have emojis not been allowed?)

[Nearholmer]

16 minutes ago, Reorte said:

didn't think central heating was super rare

 

I'm clearly biased by personal experience of ice on the inside of the bedroom window first thing in the morning: in 1970 30% of British homes had central heating; now c95%. 

 

I do recall moving to a new town in 1982, where all the houses had CH, but  only in lounges and kitchens, not the bedrooms. A work-colleague helped me extend the system in our house to the bedrooms, and we helped the council tenants, as opposed to buyers, to run a campaign to get the same, which succeeded after about three years.

 

The only connection to topic might be shillings in meters! Sorry.

[Reorte]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I'm clearly biased by personal experience of ice on the inside of the bedroom window first thing in the morning: in 1970 30% of British homes had central heating; now c95%.

I lived for a while in the 1990s in a place like that, ice on the inside of the windows but it never got quite cold enough to put ice in the bedside glass of water. Mind you being a lazy student at the time I was usually still in bed until someone else had got up and lit the fire in the kitchen (there was a back boiler in that fireplace, so it made sense to light that one), and it was nice coming down to that.

 

Interesting that it was as low as 30% in 1970 mind you, I thought it would've been higher by then.

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

My father and uncles, and a lot of other guys of their age-group, used to refer to a half-crown (2/6) as "half a dollar", which always baffled me, because in the 1960s it was worth nowhere near that.

 

I've worked out since that they were using the exchange rate that must have applied between British soldiers and "Yanks" during the war ($4=£1), which would have been the only time they ever encountered Dollars, before Britain realised it was skint and devalued massively in 1949!

 

(EDIT: Collin's Dictionary says the term goes back to the Napoleonic Wars, and that the Dollar in question was a Spanish Silver Dollar, but I still think it related to WW2, the term maybe getting revived then.)

 

 

 

My (ex Northern Irish) Grandfather used the "Half a dollar" term, and he was in WW1 not WW2.  Would presumably relate to when it was US$4:£1 exchange rate - Fixed under the Gold Standard?

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

My (ex Northern Irish) Grandfather used the "Half a dollar" term, and he was in WW1 not WW2.  Would presumably relate to when it was US$4:£1 exchange rate - Fixed under the Gold Standard?

No.  The exchange rate was fairly static in WWI at just under $5US to £1.  It then dipped considerably in 1920 and didn't recover until 1925 when Churchill foolishly put Britain back on the Gold Standard and that fixed the £ at $4.86.  But Britain's economy could not sustain being on the Gold Standard and was taken off it by a Cabinet decision in October 1931 and the £ then  crashed to about $3.30.   The £ was then unstable against the $ until the fixed rate was introduced in 1940.

 

Incidentally Britain had come off the Gold Standard in 1914.

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

That dog must have had quite a pedigree Bill.  When I started full time on BR in September 1966 my salary was equal to £9/15/0 per week  (I was paid four weekly) and I can remember when it went up - after various promotions to just over £1,000 per annum.  

 

No pedigree.  We acquired a Somerset farm dog, with his parentage detailed for generations.  Quite obviously, Exmoor farm dog = Jack Russell Terrier.  Forget the Kennel Club, these dogs were bred for intelligence, endurance and feet.  One of the best escapologist, no fence was safe: over, he could jump more than 4'; through, 20lb of JRT at 20mph; or under, feet like shovels.

 

Anyway, no need for a pedigree, the only bitch who was safe was a Great Dane, we wouldn't provide a step ladder.  Bill 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

In 1967, we bought our dog for eighteen guineas.  Bill

 

I bought a dog in guineas in the 2000s!

 

Well an ex girlfriend did. The deal was all sorted by her mum, we just had to pick it up from a farm in Cheshire and pay for it. She was probably about 23 at the time and didn't have a clue when the bloke mentioned guineas so I had to sort it out. I don't think it was that much to be honest. It was only a Jack Russell puppy and I think it was about fifty quid all together.

 

So paying for things in guineas is still possibly going on with farming folk.

 

 

Jason

[Reorte]

Is the story that guineas were used in auctions instead of pounds because the extra shilling was the auctioneer's commission true?

[Steamport Southport]

36 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Is the story that guineas were used in auctions instead of pounds because the extra shilling was the auctioneer's commission true?

 

I believe so. Or the middleman in the deal taking his share.

 

There was an idea that doing it wrong could be seen as an insult. There is a famous story of the artist Whistler being paid in guineas and it went to court. An artist should have been paid in pounds. But I think there was already some dispute going on.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Abbott_McNeill_Whistler

 

 

[laurenceb]

Sell in pounds, buy in Guineas

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I quite enjoyed a lot of the 1970s, being young at the time, but have four over-riding objections to it as a decade:

 

- decent insulation, double-glazing, and central-heating in houses were super-rare, so winters were even less pleasant than now;

 

- nylon sheets;

 

- glam rock;

 

- Jimmy Saville, who seemed bl00dy weird at the time, although none of us had any idea of his real nature.

 

 

 

Leaving both glam rock and Saville out of the equation...

 

We had proper winters back then, and the ever-accurate Daily Mail spent the early 70s predicting an oncoming Ice Age. Double glazing?  the previous occupants of our house had fitted louvered windows to several bedrooms and the icy winds of the 70s winters blew straight through.  We didn't get central heating until the mid 70s, but at least the circuit included the bedrooms.  The insane windows went too.

 

BriNylon from Brentford Nylons! Dead trendy! Who was the oik who advertised the stuff for them?

 

Google says - Alan Freeman!!!

 

 

Then there was uncomfortable nylon underwear, and quick to yellow drip-dry nylon shirts.

Become your own Van De Graaf generator!

 

NO not Van Der Graaf Generator...

 

 

3 hours ago, pH said:

Groats had been around for a long time before 1835. I think those dates are the last years there were any minted. Wikipedia says there were groats in circulation in Scotland into the 20th century - I know my gran kept at least one. (That’s a groat, not a goat! ) 

 

And the half-sovereign. My gran had some of those, too.

 

(Edit - since when have emojis not been allowed?)

 

Sovs and Half Sovs.  Literally worth their weight (Troy oz) in Gold!

(I've several of each, inherited from older relatives)

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Hroth
Update with added Horror!!!

[Tim V]

Check out that rate of return - that was the 70s!

(underexposed shot taken at Bath Green Park goods yard entrance 1974)

[TheQ]

4 minutes ago, Tim V said:

Check out that rate of return - that was the 70s!

(underexposed shot taken at Bath Green Park goods yard entrance 1974)

But the inflation rate (CPI)  was 15.99% in 1974 so that's a loss of over 4%

19% inflation at the end of 74!! 24% for the following year so you'd be losing 13% before the savings certificate expired

Edited November 25, 2020 by TheQ

[Hroth]

5 minutes ago, Tim V said:

Check out that rate of return - that was the 70s!

(underexposed shot taken at Bath Green Park goods yard entrance 1974)

 

Nice to see the availibility of coal intended to be kept in baths....

 

[Tim V]

Have you seen the current rate of return - compared with the 'rate of inflation'?

[Nearholmer]

Interest vs inflation ...... much talk now of negative interest rates, but that situation has effectively existed for long periods due to that affect.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Is the story that guineas were used in auctions instead of pounds because the extra shilling was the auctioneer's commission true?

I have more than a suspicion that some upper crust auction houses were still conducting auctions in guineas by the time a 5% commission rate had become little more than a historical glint in the buyers' and sellers' eyes.  Sothebys' USA commission rates can go as high as 60%  - that is daylight robbery.  Christie's UK buyer's commission rate is 25% on the first £225,000 dropping to 20% for a hammer price of £225,001 up to £3million and the seller's commission on the first £225,000 is also 25% (and presumably 20% on the next band up?)..

 

Thus if Christie's sells something for a hammer price of £200,000 the buyer will actually pay £250,000. and the seller will only get £140,000. (£200,000 -25% commission off the hammer price = £150,000 and then minus the VAT at 20% on the commission = another £10,000 deducted).  No wonder the folk at Christies look happy as they trouser £100,000 - £10,000 VAT on a £200,000 hammer price.

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I bought a dog in guineas in the 2000s!

 

Well an ex girlfriend did. The deal was all sorted by her mum, we just had to pick it up from a farm in Cheshire and pay for it. She was probably about 23 at the time and didn't have a clue when the bloke mentioned guineas so I had to sort it out. I don't think it was that much to be honest. It was only a Jack Russell puppy and I think it was about fifty quid all together.

 

So paying for things in guineas is still possibly going on with farming folk.

 

 

Jason

Farmers seem to love using archaic currencies. We bought an acre of vines in France, and were alarmed when discussions mentioned millions of Francs. It turned out that these were of a previous iteration of the Franc (not even the one that preceded the Ruro, and the sums in question turned out to be abou 5000 Euros. None of the people around the table had even been born when the devaluation in question took place....

[Metr0Land]

Bids are still (legally) made in guineas at horse auctions

[Johann Marsbar]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No.  The exchange rate was fairly static in WWI at just under $5US to £1.  It then dipped considerably in 1920 and didn't recover until 1925 when Churchill foolishly put Britain back on the Gold Standard and that fixed the £ at $4.86.  But Britain's economy could not sustain being on the Gold Standard and was taken off it by a Cabinet decision in October 1931 and the £ then  crashed to about $3.30.   The £ was then unstable against the $ until the fixed rate was introduced in 1940.

 

Incidentally Britain had come off the Gold Standard in 1914.

 

Something was nagging in the back of my mind about the "half a dollar" for 2/6 this afternoon and I've just realised what it was.

 

I have a book on the Railways of Canada published in 1978 and on one of the pages there is an illustration of a Currency Bill that was issued by the Champlain & St Lawrence Railroad back in 1837.

The face value on the bill is given in no less than 4 different currencies - Half a Dollar, 2s 6d, 3 Francs or 1 Ecu (a French coin of that era). so there was certainly a common value in Canada back then!

[Nearholmer]

The peso = Spanish silver 8 real = piece of eight was also used as a dollar coin in the USA for a good while before/after independence too apparently, so this half crown = half a dollar thing does indeed have roots well before WW2.

 

Would be interesting, but maybe impossible given that it was slang, to chart frequency of use age over time, to see whether my suspicion that the term got revived or revivified during WW2 is correct.

[Fenman]

10 hours ago, sir douglas said:

i never understood old money being 30 years too young to have ever used it, until i saw this video was interesting

 

Frankly it was a nightmare to add up items priced in the old currency, using base 12 (and fractions of it), base 20 and base 10 in the same calculation. And there weren’t many calculators around. 

 

But there is also a theory that having a non-decimal currency improved the mental dexterity of the entire population, by constantly forcing the brain to exercise. 
 

Personally I was glad to see the back of LSD. 

 

Paul

 

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The peso = Spanish silver 8 real = piece of eight was also used as a dollar coin in the USA for a good while before/after independence too apparently

A US term (declining in usage) for a quarter (quarter dollar) is "two bits" (meaning two eighths of a dollar).

 

Apparently, according to this wikipedia page dollar derives from the Bohemian Joachimsthaler (thaler) and Dutch leeuwendaalder (lion dollar). English speakers in the colonies applied the term dollar to the Spanish piece (peso) of eight (Real de a ocho).

 

The term "bit" lives on in "Bitcoin".

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Ozexpatriate

[antrobuscp]

I remember that the price of 45 rpm records stayed at 6s 8d for a long time as you got exactly 3 records for £1. Once that link was broken the price rose a lot.

 

My parents ran a newsagent shop at the time of "Decimal Day". It was the only morning I remember my father ever making the breakfast. He was in the shop but couldn't cope with the new money, so mum went down and served whilst my dad did the cooking.

 

I was training as an accountant at the time and I remember every time we had any sort of difference for the next year it was described as a "decimal difference" - until it was properly sorted, of course.

[Reorte]

13 hours ago, Fenman said:

Frankly it was a nightmare to add up items priced in the old currency, using base 12 (and fractions of it), base 20 and base 10 in the same calculation. And there weren’t many calculators around. 

 

But there is also a theory that having a non-decimal currency improved the mental dexterity of the entire population, by constantly forcing the brain to exercise. 
 

Personally I was glad to see the back of LSD.

Doesn't strike me as that much hassle to be honest, and no-one seems to be in a hurry to change time, what with 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week, varying number of days in a month...