Buying and Selling models to/from Europe

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

JI think I read somewhere (probably here or somewhere else on RMweb) that all incoming goods should technically have UK VAT added, regardless of value, but HMRC don't have the staff available to do it and have set an arbitrary limit of £135 to ease their workload.

 

You would have thought that the amount that would be recovered if VAT was applied to all incoming goods would cover the cost of the additional staff they would need - but then this government prefers to cut staff costs rather than collect revenue. 

[SM42]

I tested the water with an order from Germany before Christmas which came in below £135 in goods but pushed over with P&P.

 

The result was a letter from the Post Office requesting VAT and a £12 admin fee be paid before delivery.  

VAT was around £28 IIRC.

 

Fortunately the discount and deduction of German sales tax meant that it was still a good deal  

 

 

Andy

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 10/01/2024 at 11:37, Jason P said:

Up until now I have tried to use Hattons as they are VAT registered in EU (I live in Spain) and receiving goods from them was as before Brexit.  Now that Hattons are closing does anyone know of an alternative supplier that is VAT registered in EU? Kernow and Rails of Sheffield both deduct UK VAT before sending.  The problem with that in Spain that as well as paying the VAT owed (I have no problem with this!) I'm also hit with an administration fee by Spanish customs, not to mention the complicated way I have to pay the courier before they'll release the goods.

 

I haven't found anybody in the UK who operates like Hattons, regrettably, who I'm in the process of receiving my last trunk items from.

DO NOT use a UK stockist who uses Royal Mail, Correos over here are absolutely useless/incompetent/ deliberately obstructive and I've not yet had a delivery which hasn't been returned despite filling all the required forms and paperwork in, sometimes with the help of my local postman.

I have found a UK stockist with experience of sending items to Spain, I'm going to give them a go and see how it transpires.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 10/01/2024 at 22:21, irishmail said:

Nothing gets past Anpost (Irish postal service).

 

Nothing gets past Correos in Spain either, it all gets returned to sender!

 

Mike.

[jjb1970]

The post office here is pretty rigorous in checking packages and levying the necessary GST, but it's done quickly and efficiently and provided you pay quickly (you can pay at self serve kiosks which look like ATMs or at any Singpost counter) it rarely adds more than a couple of days. Stuff from the UK can be delivered within a working week, and stuff from Japan is almost like domestic post. At the risk of being glib, if one post office can do it then so can others.

[Jonboy]

The problem we have as a wholesale sender is that the various EU customs offices are incredibly inconsistent in their approach.

 

When the trade agreement was finally agreed we went through and ensured our invoices met every requirement but still suffered one in three consignments coming back due to spurious, often incorrect reasons such as missing EORI or VAT numbers when they are on the invoice, packing list and the couriers electronic booking info. We often find nothing wrong with the returned parcels paperwork and simply duplicate the carrier booking, attach a new label (that only differs in date and tracking number) and send to see it sail seamlessly through customs without issue.

 

We have found two of the international parcel networks are far better than the others and I suspect they have  better trained staff to deal with issues at the border, but the EU customers don’t want to pay the extra costs.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

23 hours ago, Jonboy said:

but the EU customers don’t want to pay the extra costs.

 

I accept the extra costs involved, it's not the suppliers fault that what happened has happened, but I'd prefer it if everyone was cast in the Hattons mould!

 

Mike.

[Andy Hayter]

On 22/01/2024 at 11:03, Jonboy said:

the EU customers don’t want to pay the extra costs.

 

 

 

Probably not relevant to your situation but the extra costs become excessive costs on low value items.

 

I bought some laser cut window frames a month ago.  Cost of the item  £3.95, cost delivered including VAT and delivery - just over £22!  If the item had just been put into an envelope and sent it would have cost £ 6.15.  Illegal of course but it makes the point.  Someone is making a killing out of this but it's not me.   

[Stefan88]

On 22/01/2024 at 00:14, SM42 said:

I tested the water with an order from Germany before Christmas which came in below £135 in goods but pushed over with P&P.

 

The result was a letter from the Post Office requesting VAT and a £12 admin fee be paid before delivery.  

VAT was around £28 IIRC.

 

Fortunately the discount and deduction of German sales tax meant that it was still a good deal  

 

 

Andy

Are you sure it was under the £135? With Januarys exchange rate that would have been €156.15.

 

I had no issues when I cleared out my German storage unit and declared the value as €150, postage was €30 so well over the £135 limit if postage is taken in to account. Delivered at the start of January, sent with DHL and handed over to Parcelforce in the UK.

[SM42]

7 hours ago, Stefan88 said:

Are you sure it was under the £135? With Januarys exchange rate that would have been €156.15.

 

I had no issues when I cleared out my German storage unit and declared the value as €150, postage was €30 so well over the £135 limit if postage is taken in to account. Delivered at the start of January, sent with DHL and handed over to Parcelforce in the UK.

 

Yes.

 

Came at £140 ish with postage. 

 

Andy 

[Stefan88]

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

Yes.

 

Came at £140 ish with postage. 

 

Andy 

And that was with Parcelforce, and the customs form was filled out correctly?

 

Would be good to know if this is now the norm having had 3 years of the postage rate not being included in the £135.

 

I've just re-checked the customs docs from the storage unit and they put down the postal charges/fees as 0, with the value declared as €150. The only other one I have to hand from a retailer has the postage correctly stated (€13.50) but the value of the goods as €0.01!

[Porfuera]

On 05/02/2024 at 23:25, Stefan88 said:

Would be good to know if this is now the norm having had 3 years of the postage rate not being included in the £135.

 

My guess is that it depends on each courier's interpretation of how to implement the rules.

 

My last package from Germany (previous page) arrived on December 27th and after German VAT was deducted the goods cost €151.37 (so under £135) but the €12.90 postage would've taken it over £135 but I didn't get charged UK VAT or handling. Mine came by FedEx from start to finish rather than DHL and then ParcelForce.

[Stefan88]

Another package from my German freight forwarder received without any bother from Parcelforce on Monday, posted with DHL and declared as €150.

On another ebay purchase I had it sent directly to me, it was an auction from one of the larger German ebay traders (der.pfiff2010) that regularly puts up new items on auction listings (seems to buy off excess unsold stock from Roco and Liliput on the cheap and puts the items up for 24 hour auctions until they're all gone). With these traders ebay will deduct the German VAT (19%) from the final auction end price if its going to the UK even on auctions and second hand goods as the trader has their VAT set up with ebay. It still puts VAT on to the postage (which will have already had this included, so paying VAT twice on that), and if its below £135 then they will automatically add the UK VAT back on.

So a very nice set I won for €365 became €306.71. Postage was €19. I figured paying the UK VAT and handling fee would be more or less the same as having it sent to the German freight forwarder (€8) and then sent to me from them as part of a shipment - it is quite a large box and probably a good 3kg or so, so would have had a significant impact on postage for the shipment from the forwarders (easily another €10-20 increase). Parcelforce is showing it as awaiting customs clearance so now its the waiting game for the VAT invoice to arrive in the post. I did wonder whether this stood a chance of slipping through, but given that it was all processed through ebay its hardly surprising that the UK VAT is being charged - the exact value and declaration will have been done automatically.

 

A spares order from Roco will be next, they deduct the VAT on their website automatically when you start adding things to your cart. Postage to the UK is €9.50, in the past these were sent with Deutsche Post and delivered by Royal Mail.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Accurascale have re aligned their EU deliveries, still not despatched from Ireland I think but at least it clarifies and simplifies things.

 

Mike.

[irishmail]

TMC  Model Centre seems to work ok. Placed an order last week, English VAT deducted and then paid Irish VAT + handling fee, delivered Royal Mail and Anpost. 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/

[Neils WRX]

12 hours ago, Stefan88 said:

Another package from my German freight forwarder received without any bother from Parcelforce on Monday, posted with DHL and declared as €150.

On another ebay purchase I had it sent directly to me, it was an auction from one of the larger German ebay traders (der.pfiff2010) that regularly puts up new items on auction listings (seems to buy off excess unsold stock from Roco and Liliput on the cheap and puts the items up for 24 hour auctions until they're all gone). With these traders ebay will deduct the German VAT (19%) from the final auction end price if its going to the UK even on auctions and second hand goods as the trader has their VAT set up with ebay. It still puts VAT on to the postage (which will have already had this included, so paying VAT twice on that), and if its below £135 then they will automatically add the UK VAT back on.

So a very nice set I won for €365 became €306.71. Postage was €19. I figured paying the UK VAT and handling fee would be more or less the same as having it sent to the German freight forwarder (€8) and then sent to me from them as part of a shipment - it is quite a large box and probably a good 3kg or so, so would have had a significant impact on postage for the shipment from the forwarders (easily another €10-20 increase). Parcelforce is showing it as awaiting customs clearance so now its the waiting game for the VAT invoice to arrive in the post. I did wonder whether this stood a chance of slipping through, but given that it was all processed through ebay its hardly surprising that the UK VAT is being charged - the exact value and declaration will have been done automatically.

 

A spares order from Roco will be next, they deduct the VAT on their website automatically when you start adding things to your cart. Postage to the UK is €9.50, in the past these were sent with Deutsche Post and delivered by Royal Mail.

If you have the tracking number you can ring up Parcelforce to get the customs number so you can pay that to speed the process up.

 

Thanks,

 

Neil

[Stefan88]

3 hours ago, Neils WRX said:

If you have the tracking number you can ring up Parcelforce to get the customs number so you can pay that to speed the process up.

 

Thanks,

 

Neil

Thanks for the tip, unfortunately I can't even do that yet as its still not been assessed by customs, only when the tracking shows it has arrived at the delivery depot can I call up and get the customs number. So far its been sat in customs for 30 hours according to the tracking...

[Stefan88]

Finally been able to call up, get my code and pay, took 2 days for it to clear customs and travel across Coventry from the international hub to the delivery centre, and being a Friday naturally the next available delivery day isn't until Monday.

 

Something new - I'm being charged duty on this one!

 

 

I'll await the letter but I think I'll be putting in a claim on this one as model railways shouldn't be attracting any duty, I'm curious to see what code they have put it under. I'll also see if I can get back the VAT for the postage element - this already had VAT included, then eBay put on another 20% and the total VAT charged is for the item AND the postage, so I have paid VAT 3 times on that! It only accounts for £3.90 of the VAT charged but still...

 

I'd have been better off sending this to my freight forwarder and combined it with the 5 other items I had consolidated and shipped this morning. After working everything out with the exchange rates etc it has cost me about £20-23 more than had I gone down this route, pending any refunds on charges. Had I had it forwarded straight on to me from them (i.e. not consolidating it with anything else) then this gets more or less wiped out and there would be no difference. That said, £364 all in for something which had an RRP of €600 (now €660 with Rocos 2024 price increases!), and the lowest price I saw for it was £425 from a UK trader while it was briefly on sale (and quickly sold), its still not bad in the grand scheme of things and more or less bang on what I personally valued the set as (£200 for a loco with DCC sound and £150 for 3 coaches and a baggage van).

[Nigel Emery]

12 hours ago, Stefan88 said:

Finally been able to call up, get my code and pay, took 2 days for it to clear customs and travel across Coventry from the international hub to the delivery centre, and being a Friday naturally the next available delivery day isn't until Monday.

 

Something new - I'm being charged duty on this one!

 

 

I'll await the letter but I think I'll be putting in a claim on this one as model railways shouldn't be attracting any duty, I'm curious to see what code they have put it under. I'll also see if I can get back the VAT for the postage element - this already had VAT included, then eBay put on another 20% and the total VAT charged is for the item AND the postage, so I have paid VAT 3 times on that! It only accounts for £3.90 of the VAT charged but still...

 

Once you see the letter I’d be interested to know what the Duty element is for!

 

I’ve got another interesting one ongoing at the moment. About a month ago PF unexpectedly delivered a parcel without waiting for me to pay. The parcel even had a big label “not to be delivered until charges paid”. A few days later the normal letter arrived which I placed in my pending file! We’re now roughly at the date when if I hadn’t paid the parcel would be returned to sender. I’m intrigued to see what happens next!

[Nigel Emery]

18 minutes ago, Tim-Hale said:

Just a heads up. Purchasing from MSL, results in them removing the Mwst and the employ FedEx as couriers, never been charged irrespective of the value of the goods.

 

However on every occasion that DPD were entrusted with any item when Parcel Force is their trading partner in the UK and I have been hit with VAT and the handling charge. The most recent was an item costing €100 which attracted £17+ VAT plus £12 handling charge moreover Parcel Force often forget to send the bill by  snailmail which features the unique reference number without which it is impossible to pay the import fees. Instead, I have to drive to Poole and ask if they have anything awaiting my attention…….

Hence, I avoid buying from abroad unless the seller uses FedEx.

 

Tim 

You’ve been lucky then, I use MSL a lot and if the value is over the £135 then I’ve always received the VAT bill from FedEx after delivery has taken place. Usually the bill comes first by txt message, then by email and eventually by snail mail.

 

It’s been mentioned a few times in this thread but worth repeating. You don’t need to wait for the letter to arrive from ParcelForce. Once you can see on the tracking that the parcel is in the local depot you can ring ParcelForce who will translate the tracking number into the payment number allowing you to pay online (and usefully pick a delivery date that suits you). You were unlucky to get charged on a €100 item, that doesn’t normally happen although as this thread constantly proves the rules aren’t always applied correctly!

Edited March 2 by Nigel Emery

[Jonboy]

1 hour ago, Tim-Hale said:

Just a heads up. Purchasing from MSL, results in them removing the Mwst and the employ FedEx as couriers, never been charged irrespective of the value of the goods.

 

However on every occasion that DPD were entrusted with any item when Parcel Force is their trading partner in the UK and I have been hit with VAT and the handling charge. The most recent was an item costing €100 which attracted £17+ VAT plus £12 handling charge moreover Parcel Force often forget to send the bill by  snailmail which features the unique reference number without which it is impossible to pay the import fees. Instead, I have to drive to Poole and ask if they have anything awaiting my attention…….

Hence, I avoid buying from abroad unless the seller uses FedEx.

 

Tim 

If you don’t get the letter you normally call the parcelforce customer service centre with the tracking number and sort it that way.

[Stefan88]

The letter has arrived and it gives no explanation as to why I've been charged duty, showing the same breakdown as when I paid online, so I'll have to wait for the parcel to come on Monday and see what the customs declaration has stated the product code to be etc.

[Enterprisingwestern]

12 hours ago, Stefan88 said:

The letter has arrived and it gives no explanation as to why I've been charged duty, showing the same breakdown as when I paid online, so I'll have to wait for the parcel to come on Monday and see what the customs declaration has stated the product code to be etc.

 

If it's anything like the Spanish model of customer service, silence or repetition usually means "we've f*cked up, we're not going to admit it, let's hope we can obfuscate long enough to make the customer go away".

Good luck.

 

Mike.

[Stefan88]

I successfully claimed the VAT back just after the rules came in to force as the order was placed and sent just before they came in to force, took about a month or so to get the cheque from HMRC. This time round will depend on what the customs declaration says, which will all have been automatically generated by ebay.

[Stefan88]

Package arrived and nothing on the customs declaration to suggest a reason for the duty. The postage had also been declared higher than what I paid (€26.99 instead of €19). Going to have to do some digging with ebay customer services.