Gunpowder Vans - Length of Train

[Rivercider]

Here is a photo from the west country of two empty returning gunpowder vans, they have probably originated from Truro.

47335 arrives at Bridgwater with 7M22 09.05 Exeter Riverside to Bescot, it would call into the yard to attach a loaded nuclear flask wagon. This train, or its equivalent ran for many years, at one time running as far as Warrington. The empty gunpowder vans were usually near the front simply because of marshalling instructions. They may well have been empty for Gathurst, so were formed into the Warrington fitted portion, which was next to the loco. 12/9/80 

 

cheers

[duncan]

I don't have any regulations to quote, but I suspect the length of train delivering would partly depend on the maximum quantity of explosives that the user was allowed to store.  This suspect that it might depend on the security on site, time period & location. 

[Fat Controller]

54 minutes ago, duncan said:

I don't have any regulations to quote, but I suspect the length of train delivering would partly depend on the maximum quantity of explosives that the user was allowed to store.  This suspect that it might depend on the security on site, time period & location. 

Black Callerton was served by single air-braked vans with an air-braked hopper either side. As far as Fawdon, there would have been Rowntrees' vans and hoppers in the formation.

[scottystitch]

All good stuff, everyone. I think I will go for four or five with two barriers at each end.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, scottystitch said:

Thank you, Mike, and everyone else who has replied. Most helpful.

 

The traffic I have in mind is quarry explosives, so non-military in nature.

 

I also understand that quarry explosives were not conveyed, by rail, directly to the quarry.  Rather it was unloaded at a seperate yard and conveyed by road to a suitable store for further use at the quarry as required.  Is that correct?

 

Best

Scott.

Yes.  The various Regulations required that explosives magazines were not permitted to be sited at quarries and that only a very limited amount of explosive and detonators could be kept on hand - in very secure conditions - for what amounted to 'immediate use'.  The quantity allowed to be stored in any one magazine was also limited by the Explosive Regulations.  Thus  a load of commercial explosive for quarrying use unloaded from a GPV could well finish up having to be spread among several magazines.  

 

Commercial explosives were not normally permitted to be kept in any building on railway property and were not permitted to be handled in goods sheds etc.  Military bangers were rather different and the army lads normally did their best to get as much as they could on a single lorry although officially I think they were required to keep detonators and shells separate (although they often arrived at the railhead loaded in the same vehcle - ordinary vans, not GPVs).  

 

Loads of military explosive arriving on a Friday were a right pain because by the mid 1970s as a result of various Irish activities. wagons loaded with explosives on hand over a weekend could only be held at a very limited number of yard were road access was difficult - Severn Tunnel. jcn on the WR.  The pongoes were notoriously keen on having Friday afternoons to themselves and where I was working in the mid '70s we regularly received explosives for them and often on Fridays and it could be very difficult to get them collected.  We had a suprervisor of Irish origin and he could put on a very noticeable Irish accent when needed  - he was past master at getting the army to come and get the stuff on Fridays

[Davexoc]

22 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

The small yard is that of Gathurst near Wigan.

 

Gathurst was the loading point, this site is interesting, and shows what was left of the works before clearance.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/b3tarev3/sets/72157626428237311/

 

Amazing what was left to just decay...

[daveyb]

My experience is purely military explosives and relatively recent, but the type of explosives affects how much can be carried, what separation is required and where it can be held.

 

I never saw GPV or Mink in mainline service, but we had a few in the internal fleet. They were specifically designed to avoid sparks (from grating ferrous metals) and were intended for explosives not in explosive articles, so bulk for use as is or to be put into ammunition items.

 

Heavy cased articles (e.g. shells and bombs) used to be moved in plain vans or open wagons and were secured buy chocks, but nothing has been moved like that for a long time. The reason for the change was to aid efficient handling by mechanical handling equipment (MHE - forklifts) rather than moving them with lots of men.

 

Another point for quarrying explosives is that it is often mixed on site. The use of gunpowder reduced significantly as safer slurry explosives were developed, meaning that the components wouldn't necessarily be explosive until mixed and would then require a detonator rather than a burning fuze.

 

Commercial explosives (such as Roburite from Gathurst) had different (very old) regulations and were only updated in 2006, previously being regulated under the various Gunpowder Acts and Regulations from the turn of the century and the Explosives Acts and regulations from the 1930s and 50s.

 

Most ammunition now moves in ISO containers where possible, in fact I have loaded 34  20ft ISOs with explosives over the past week. We used to use VAA and VGA/VKA for palletized loads in UK and HBIS or HBLLNS ferry type vans in Germany. VKAs are still used between ammo depots and ports for some pallet loads, but far less than they used to be.

[br2975]

During the mid-70s, ICI / Cooke's Explosives at Penrhyndeudrath on the Cambrian Coast Line despatched traffic on the 7J16 14:47 SX Penrhyndeudraeth - Coton Hill (Shrewsbury), where the explosives / gunpowder vans, were remarshalled and distributed to their relevant destinations.

.

At this time, Penrhyndeudraeth despatched explosives to (i) Wellingborough, Wigan, Stainforth & Hatfield, Stevenston, Tonbridge, Ulverston, Callerton, Crewe, Gathurst, St. Erth, Annan, Bogside, Bramwith, Burton on Trent, and Llantrisant.

.

Llantrisant, being local to me, was served by the Penrhyndeudraeth - Coton Hill, thence a Croes Newydd - Severn Tunnel Junction service, and finally reached Llantrisant on the 8O98 STJ - Llantrisant. In days of yore, i.e. until 1967/1968 the gunpowder vans would be tripped from Llantrisant to the ICI magazines at Mwyndy, a 57xx pannier, later a Cl.08 diesel shunter. 

.

When one considers the number of destination served by Penrhyndeudraeth, the number of gunpowder vans carried in the 7J16 could be several.

.

Brian R

[The Johnster]

The Llantrisant/Mwyndy van was probably returned empty via the (01.55? it’s a while ago and my memory is getting wobbly) 8M01 Long Dyke-Croes Newydd, one of my link jobs in the early 70s.  

[Michael Hodgson]

Does anybody know whether or not my understanding is correct that a GPV proper had strong sides and relatively flimsy roof, so that in the event of it going bang the worst of the blast would be directed upwards to minimise risk to the immediate vicinity, and that during WW1 & WW2 ordinary vans (irons minks etc) were pressed into service with minor modifications as "improvised GPV".

 

 

On 09/01/2021 at 06:57, daveyb said:

Most ammunition now moves in ISO containers where possible, in fact I have loaded 34  20ft ISOs with explosives over the past week. We used to use VAA and VGA/VKA for palletized loads in UK and HBIS or HBLLNS ferry type vans in Germany. VKAs are still used between ammo depots and ports for some pallet loads, but far less than they used to be.

 

Would these containers be moved by rail or only by road?  Are we talking standard ISO containers, or are they specially adapted/designed to military requirements?

 

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Does anybody know whether or not my understanding is correct that a GPV proper had strong sides and relatively flimsy roof, so that in the event of it going bang the worst of the blast would be directed upwards to minimise risk to the immediate vicinity, and that during WW1 & WW2 ordinary vans (irons minks etc) were pressed into service with minor modifications as "improvised GPV".

 

 

 

Would these containers be moved by rail or only by road?  Are we talking standard ISO containers, or are they specially adapted/designed to military requirements?

 

 

If you go past Didcot by train, you will often see wagons loaded with non-descript containers, often with the owner's identity painted out. These are MoD boxes, going to or coming from the CAD at Kineton. You might also see anonymous Flame Red boxes, with side doors; these work from Glascoed, via Wentloog, to Kineton with new ammunition. ISO boxes were originally developed for the American military, developed following their experience of logistics in WW2 and Korea, and first used in Vietnam, I believe.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Does anybody know whether or not my understanding is correct that a GPV proper had strong sides and relatively flimsy roof, so that in the event of it going bang the worst of the blast would be directed upwards to minimise risk to the immediate vicinity, and that during WW1 & WW2 ordinary vans (irons minks etc) were pressed into service with minor modifications as "improvised GPV".

 

 

 

Would these containers be moved by rail or only by road?  Are we talking standard ISO containers, or are they specially adapted/designed to military requirements?

 

 

Loading Instructions which pre-date WWII, and those from 1946, show that explosives in some classes were conveyed in ordinary vans.  Judging by practice from the 1960s these would almost certainly have been military explosives which weren't suitable to load in open wagons.

 

However it was permitted to load small quantities of commercial explosive to ordinary vehocles on connecting services although the 'small quantity' was not defined (I'm fairly sure that it would have been in the Explosive Regulations which set limits on how much could be stored in various situations.)

 

PS the only things I have seen loaded in open wagons are bombs (both HE and Napalm types - but not in the same train) although I know that mines (marine type) were also loaded in opens.  In all cases sheeted.

Edited January 10, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

43 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

PS the only things I have seen loaded in open wagons are bombs (both HE and Napalm types - but not in the same train) although I know that mines (marine type) were also loaded in opens.  In all cases sheeted.

 

The Soham explosion was fire in a sheeted wooden wagon carrying bombs.  The initial cause of the fire wasn't clear, but hot cinders from the loco may have set the tarpaulin alight.  There was some suggestion that the wagon might not have been properly swept out after carrying bulk sulphur.

I have heard it said that the incident caused undue consternation in high places because it happened only a few days before D Day and they were worried in case it had been organised work by fifth-column/saboteurs and a breach of secrecy.

[daveyb]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Would these containers be moved by rail or only by road?  Are we talking standard ISO containers, or are they specially adapted/designed to military requirements?

 

 

Standard ISO containers, moved by road and rail. As FC says above, Didcot sees almost all rail ammunition traffic as it moves to Kineton or up from Marchwood.  There is a fair amount moved to the Scottish former Navy (RNAD) ammunition depots.

 

Again, as FC says, the ISOs are fairly non-descript. Some are hired, some are owned, some are bought off hire. The orange/red full side opening type are MoD owned and were all originally numbered with RCTU or RLCU but they, too, have changed. There are blue full side openers seemingly randomly numbered, but are RN 'owned'. Full side openers are much easier to load/unload with rough terrain forklift trucks when on operations, but their tare weight is much higher. They also cost more... No prizes for guessing why we have fewer now! It doesn't matter they are easier to use if you can save a few quid buying them. Much older (70s/80s) full side openers had doors at both ends, a full side of doors (two doors with a hinge in the middle) and a 3/4 height square door on the opposite side. Later ones have one end door and both full side openers, again, two doors hinged in the middle like a VDA.

 

Ammunition supply and management has been tri-service, in most cases, since about 1999. There are still special to arm types and storage but it is all managed by Defence Equipment and Support at Abbeywood, and held by Defence Munitions.

 

I was under the impression that the GPV/Mink design was all metal to avoid fires/sparks/embers/static getting to the load, which as I mentioned earlier, was usually a bulk explosive not in an ammunition item. I would expect they were wood lined originally, again, to avoid sparking. No nailed boots was a rule for loading ammunition trains.

 

I was also surprised to see explosives trains (class 7 noted above) at Llantrisant as late as the 70s. I was under the impression the production of explosives ceased much earlier when the plan to move the Mint there from London was hatched.

[The Stationmaster]

Special felt boots had to be worm in when working in GPVs in days past when nailed boots were commonplace.  the special boots remained with teh vans.

[Davexoc]

On 11/01/2021 at 05:58, daveyb said:

Standard ISO containers, moved by road and rail. As FC says above, Didcot sees almost all rail ammunition traffic as it moves to Kineton or up from Marchwood.  There is a fair amount moved to the Scottish former Navy (RNAD) ammunition depots.

 

Again, as FC says, the ISOs are fairly non-descript. Some are hired, some are owned, some are bought off hire. The orange/red full side opening type are MoD owned and were all originally numbered with RCTU or RLCU but they, too, have changed. There are blue full side openers seemingly randomly numbered, but are RN 'owned'. Full side openers are much easier to load/unload with rough terrain forklift trucks when on operations, but their tare weight is much higher. They also cost more... No prizes for guessing why we have fewer now! It doesn't matter they are easier to use if you can save a few quid buying them. Much older (70s/80s) full side openers had doors at both ends, a full side of doors (two doors with a hinge in the middle) and a 3/4 height square door on the opposite side. Later ones have one end door and both full side openers, again, two doors hinged in the middle like a VDA.

 

Semi OT, I took these at Didcot back in 2006. A right motley selection of boxes, but the Army green ones do have different door arangements....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Davexoc
Photo restored

[daveyb]

Hi Dave,

 

The second photo is not an ISO, its a specific role closed flatrack, you can see the lift bar set into the LH end. Also note the conlocks on the bottom appear like 'feet', not part of the frame of the box. I've no idea what role it fulfills.

 

That third pic, LH, green, container is a real relic. Numbered in the RCTU series and painted deep bronze green would make it over 15 years old then. The last RCTU boxes were red before the switch to RLCU numbers sometime after Apr 1993. All the RLCU I ever saw were shades of red, from almost orange to oxide primer colour.

 

Nice to see the PFA wagons in use. I always thought they were a versatile little wagon that got overlooked for its usefulness... Though I fully appreciate the economics of the KFAs, etc as what will hold a lot will hold a little, for fewer wheels!

[br2975]

Penrhyndeudraeth, July 1967

.

Photographer unknown

.

 

[Compound2632]

Going back to the early years of the 20th century, LNWR, LYR, and MR gunpowder vans carried cast plates:

 

                 NOTICE

NO UNAUTHORISED PERSON

             IS ALLOWED

    TO OPEN THESE DOORS

 

The plates seem to be the same for all three companies, which suggests to me that they conformed to an RCH drawing, though GNR and NBR plates carried the same wording but were of different design. Nothing about soft boots - though I'm sure I've seen such a notice - perhaps on the inside of the doors?

 

LNWR vans had the following useful information painted on the LH panel:

 

To carry not more than

100 barrels, each barrel

to weigh not more than

            100 lbs.

 

which gives a maximum load of 4 t 9 c 1 q, though the vans were rated to carry 7 t.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a key (Item 11595) but alas not the van to go with it.

[Steven B]

On 08/01/2021 at 13:36, scottystitch said:

All good stuff, everyone. I think I will go for four or five with two barriers at each end.

It doesn't have to be two wagons - it was the distance between the explosives and the train crew or other dangerous goods that was important. A single bogie bolster could be used for example.

 

Steven B.

 

 

[scottystitch]

Thanks Steven, good to know.

 

 

Best

 

Scott.

[Rivercider]

19 minutes ago, Steven B said:

It doesn't have to be two wagons - it was the distance between the explosives and the train crew or other dangerous goods that was important. A single bogie bolster could be used for example.

 

Steven B.

 

 

As Stephen says other wagons could be used (as long as they were not conveying dangerous goods that would make them incompatible with the explosives).

As nigb55009 mentions up thread on the Gathurst trip they sometimes used coal wagons which were already on the train. As the freight network contracted with less traffic passing it became increasingly difficult to make the required barrier distance using the other ordinary wagons on the train, so former BR ferry vans for example became dedicated barrier wagons, sometimes allocated to a particular yard that had regular dangerous goods passing.

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/01/2021 at 19:35, scottystitch said:

Thank you, Mike, and everyone else who has replied. Most helpful.

 

The traffic I have in mind is quarry explosives, so non-military in nature.

 

I also understand that quarry explosives were not conveyed, by rail, directly to the quarry.  Rather it was unloaded at a seperate yard and conveyed by road to a suitable store for further use at the quarry as required.  Is that correct?

 

Best

Scott.

Yes - as posted previously.  Quarries and mines were not allowed to hold large quantities of explosive - only sufficient for immediate use  (there were, and are,  quantities specified in various Regularions and the amounts are fairly small and depend on the type of explosive) . Thus unless it was a tiny amount arriving by rail - and probably unusual even then because of the admin of Explosives Registers - the material unloaded from trains for commercial use went to magazines where irt was stored pending distribution to users. 

[w124bob]

Here are some observations taken from Bradford Barton "Diesels in the West Midlands and Central Wales". A train consisting of a 5plank a standard 13 ton van, 4 gun powder vans and 2 16 ton minerals plus a brakevan . A second picture shows the same train minus the 13 ton van, it's difficult to tell if the gun powder vans are fitted or not but one does appear to be a lighter shade. Loco is green full yellow end 5142 and just for interest the trailing mineral is nearly ex works, no top flap. The picture of the class 25 earlier was at Gathurst on the Wigan Southport line, it remained in use long enough to see the occasional air brake van, usually with ferry vans as barrier wagons. With Rapido doing BR diagramme gunpowder vans soon the above train is an easy modelling project.Another picture, this time from OPC "Profile of the Class 20's" shows a single gunpowder van at a lovely named Bogside siding. The van is about to picked up by an Alloa Townhill trip working. Train consists of two 20 ton grain hoppers, 4 tank wagons(Airfix/Dapol)one with a Regent oval and the brakevan, loco is 20201 picture is dated June '79.

Edited January 13, 2021 by w124bob

[scottystitch]

Very helpful bob, thanks!

 

Best

 

Scott.