Gunpowder Vans - Length of Train

[scottystitch]

I'm trying to find some information regarding the number of loaded GPV that might be permitted in a train.  My train in question won't be part of a mixed goods train, it will be composed only of GPV and barriers.

 

I've found an extract from teh BR pink pages dated 1976 that states:

 

"Not more than 40 units (80,000lbs i.e. 36,000kg) of explosives must be conveyed in any one train unless specifically authorised."

 

My GPV are the Dapol N Gauge BR examples.  Does anyone have any knowledge of what sort of weight of explosives would typically be in each one?  I appreciate this may be "How long is a piece of string" question, but if it helps "my" explosives will be for quarry blasting and I have ten of them.  I have seen a picture of a GPV train with 11-14 vans, but the caption doesn't say if it is empty or loaded.

 

Any help would be gratefully received and appreciated.

 

Best

 

Scott. 

[Fat Controller]

All references I've seen to GPVs in trains in peacetime mention a maximum of five loaded vans. Given the vans load between 8 and 10 tonnes, that would fit with the figure you quote.

[scottystitch]

9 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

All references I've seen to GPVs in trains in peacetime mention a maximum of five loaded vans. Given the vans load between 8 and 10 tonnes, that would fit with the figure you quote.

 

Thank you, that is very helpful. Perfect!

 

Best

 

Scott.

[nigb55009]

When I was a guard during the 1980s, the weight of explosive was dependant on the type. Military and commercial were treated differently. Explosives were classified 1:1, 1:4 etc. If you have a copy of the "Pink Pages" it should, IIRC, show how much could be carried in each vehicle, I don`t think wagons were ever fully loaded, certainly not to the maximum load permissible if the wagon were carrying a different, less dangerous cargo.

[Rivercider]

They were still in use when I first started in Bristol TOPS in 1978, and my memory is that 

you would tend to see them only in ones or twos at the 'user' end of the journey.

It would be at the loading end of the journey they would start off in a block,

being split up at the first marshalling yard to head off to various destinations,

 

cheers

[Nearholmer]

Five seems fewer than I remember seeing on the Cambrian Coast line, more like ten I think, but maybe some were empty and acting as barriers.

 

Have you tried searching for photos of the Cambrian trains?

 

As it happens, the one I can find shows ....... five! http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1105g.htm This is the ‘daily mixed goods’, but I’m sure I remember ‘block’ trains too, which is where the memory of longer takes comes from - maybe they were specifically for the military.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

I seem to recall this was covered under the Explosives Regulations which were 'translated' into everyday railway use as 'trains were not permitted to carry more than 5 wagons of explosives' (mid 1930s).  This limitation to a maximum of 5 vehicles conveying explosives in a train goes back to at least 1904

 

Dealing strictly with commercial explosives the Instruction was revised in 1941 continuing the restriction to a maximum of 5 vehicles but adding that the wagons containing explosives should be marshalled as near as possible to the middle of the train and must have a minimum of two vehicles not containing expl;osives or dangerous goods marshalled between the engine and the first wagon containing explosives except for short distances between depots or private sidings and marshalling when the two vehicles need not be provided.    

 

This Instruction did not apply to explosives conveyed on the account of various Govt Depts including the military and the Ministry of Supply but in the case of of odd wagons these should be marshalled near the middle of the train.

 

There does not appear to have been any generally circulated Instruction regarding military etc explosives issued prior to 1958 (possibly at which time the Explosive Regulations were revised?) and this appears to have introduce introduced a requirement to have two vehicle not containing explosives or or inflammable goods between the last wagon conveying explosives and the Guard's brakevan in addition to the two between the engine and the first wagon containing explosives.  These are explained in a note as qualifying to be called 'barrier wagons'.  The 1958 Instruction specified the maximum number of wagons of the various categories of military explosive which might be marshalled in a train - in most cases this was 60 wagons but it was restricted to only 30 wagons if there were n more than 5 vehicles containing Category Y explosives in the train.

 

Virtually all reference to Explosives was taken out of the Rule Book and General Appendix in 1960/61 so I presume that it was then transferred to the green cover booklets covering acceptance, loading and conveyance of freight traffic at.  It was subsequently migrated from those to the Pink Pages of the WMRS.  Alas I have very few of the green booklets and no amendments to them so can't cover the interval between 1960/61 and later editions of the WMRS

 

You need also to think about the use of GPVs in relation to military traffic.  earlier comments on RMweb have shown that they were used to move material between ordnance factoriesbut generall in terms of ammunition and bombs etc they were conveyed in ordinary wagons and not in GPVs

[scottystitch]

Thank you, Mike, and everyone else who has replied. Most helpful.

 

The traffic I have in mind is quarry explosives, so non-military in nature.

 

I also understand that quarry explosives were not conveyed, by rail, directly to the quarry.  Rather it was unloaded at a seperate yard and conveyed by road to a suitable store for further use at the quarry as required.  Is that correct?

 

Best

Scott.

[SED Freightman]

The amount of commercial explosive in a wagon could be very small indeed, we used to receive the occasional gunpowder van at Ashford Full Loads Depot (West Yard) from ICI at Penrhyndeudraeth, I do not recall the consignee but it was possibly one of the ragstone quarries near Maidstone.  One morning a wagon arrived, the seals were cut, the doors opened, and nothing. Cue panic, until someone climbed into the wagon and noticed a small box that had slid into the corner at one end !

[Davexoc]

 

The below image appeared in this thread the other day.

 

 

There are a reasonble number there, but whether they are a mix of loaded and empties being shunted, who knows?

 

 

[scottystitch]

Interesting shot! I count 11 behind the locomotive, and is that another 4 to the left of the lorry?

 

Also interesting to see the hoppers left on the main while the yard is shunted.

 

Thanks for sharing,

 

Best

 

Scott.

[melmerby]

In the GWR 1936 appendix it mentions the normal 5 van limit but says the maximum does not apply if travelling under a Secretary of State warrant.

[Philou]

Did you also see the narrow gauge railway and wagons to the right? Out of simple curiosity, where was the photo taken?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Gibbo675]

22 minutes ago, Philou said:

Did you also see the narrow gauge railway and wagons to the right? Out of simple curiosity, where was the photo taken?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Hi Philip,

 

The small yard is that of Gathurst near Wigan.

 

Gibbo.

[Rivercider]

The gunpowders vans I remembered from 1978 were going to Truro goods yard, presumably then the explosives went onward by road to whatever quarry or mine as required,

 

cheers

[scottystitch]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

Did you also see the narrow gauge railway and wagons to the right? Out of simple curiosity, where was the photo taken?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

To my shame I never even twigged. That looks interesting. So were the GPVs being loaded or unloaded by the long shed? 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

To my shame I never even twigged. That looks interesting. So were the GPVs being loaded or unloaded by the long shed? 
 

Best

 

Scott. 

LOaded.

[Philou]

It's the Roburite Explosive Works Tramway - hence as Fat Controller says - being loaded. There are a few marks on the ground showing up on Google Maps but no real evidence of anything - even the goods yard has been built over.

 

On the photo there is a really small green diesel loco to the right of the chap standing observing the goings-on (driver possibly?). I thought at first the loco was part of the gateway! The first wagon I think is a 'passenger' wagon having knifeboard seating.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Philou said:

It's the Roburite Explosive Works Tramway - hence as Fat Controller says - being loaded. There are a few marks on the ground showing up on Google Maps but no real evidence of anything - even the goods yard has been built over.

 

On the photo there is a really small green diesel loco to the right of the chap standing observing the goings-on (driver possibly?). I thought at first the loco was part of the gateway! The first wagon I think is a 'passenger' wagon having knifeboard seating.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

On the OS maps, the NG goes through the gate, turns 120 degrees to head northwards across the valley of the River Douglas and Leeds & Liverpool canal on a viaduct to a small cluster of sidings & buildings on the other side.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=53.56015&lon=-2.69218&layers=168&b=1

Edited January 7, 2021 by melmerby

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

in terms of ammunition and bombs etc they were conveyed in ordinary wagons and not in GPVs

I remember doing a lot of work at Fenny Compton around the time of the Falklands War. The sidings there formed the connection to the stub of the former SMJ line to Burton Dassett aka Central Ammuntion Depot Kineton. Much of the traffic was bound for Portsmouth and Southampton mostly in 12 Ton box vans. I was trying to survey the signalling equipment and had no end of difficulty with the boys in blue and their military cousins by turning up and wandering around with a note pad.

It was a different story after the hostilities finished and the unused stuff was being booked back in. One Friday night a train arrived at Banbury with about 20 vans of live ammunition. The crew didn't sign the road beyond so they unhooked their Class 33 in the Down Relief platform and headed back south Light Engine. The vans stood unattended in the station for two days before they finally continued to Fenny Compton.

[nigb55009]

Gathurst was one of the locations which I worked to when I was a Guard at Springs Branch, the other was Chorley ROF, served by sidings near. Euxton Junction. At Gathurst the wagon nearest the buffers was loaded first. That meant dragging the whole lot out before leaving the loads on the main line, with the barrier wagons and then putting the empties back. The empty coal wagons were from Southport and were used as barriers. When the narrow gauge line closed the explosives were moved in lorries like the one seen at the far end of the sidings. IIRC they were short wheelbase Ford Ds. It was only a few hundred yards from the factory gate, over the canal bridge and through the station car park to reach the sidings. The explosives were for commercial use, though I`m not sure where.

At Chorley ROF, obviously the explosives were for military use. The empty wagons were taken into depot by an MOD loco and loaded wagons pushed back out, BR staff were not allowed beyond the gates. Security staff were present at all times during shunting. Reporting numbers were 6F83 Walton Old Junction to Chorley ROF, which also conveyed traffic for GKN at Douglas Bank, near Wigan Wallgate and Metal Box at Westhoughton. The return working was 6F82 Chorley ROF to Arpley Sidings, via Preston.

The Gathurst train was a trip working from Springs Branch, which ran round at Burscough Bridge, if there was no traffic for Southport. Target 72, 85 and 90 were used at different times.

 

[SP Steve]

The Pink Pages I have dated October 1960 give the following instructions regarding conveyance of explosives:

 

Maximum of five wagons per train with similar limit when unloading / loading

Load of 16,000lb per van

At least two vehicles (empty or conveying non-dangerous traffic) between loco and wagons conveying explosives, between wagons conveying explosives and guard's brake van and between each category of differing dangerous goods (except for radioactive substances which are not to be conveyed with explosives)

GPVs to be securely padlocked both sides

 

Geoff Plumb has a section on Cambrian Lines traffic with some views depicting GPV traffic from Penrhyndeudraeth which suggests that there may be four per train.

 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-hj6Zk6t/A

 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-vzzB45W/A

 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-vw8jgpB/A

 

10 hours ago, Philou said:

On the photo there is a really small green diesel loco to the right of the chap standing observing the goings-on (driver possibly?). I thought at first the loco was part of the gateway! The first wagon I think is a 'passenger' wagon having knifeboard seating.

 

ICI Mond Division's Roburite Works utilised a number of 2' gauge 4wDM locos from Ruston Hornsby (mainly 20DL Class types) with no fewer than seven listed in "Industrial Locomotives 1979" by the IRS.

 

The narrow gauge lines into Gathurst station were out of use by July 1981 with the viaduct over the River Douglas demolished the following year. 1989 saw rail shipment from Gathurst cease with all deliveries taken by road.

 

[Gibbo675]

8 hours ago, nigb55009 said:

Gathurst was one of the locations which I worked to when I was a Guard at Springs Branch, the other was Chorley ROF, served by sidings near. Euxton Junction. At Gathurst the wagon nearest the buffers was loaded first. That meant dragging the whole lot out before leaving the loads on the main line, with the barrier wagons and then putting the empties back. The empty coal wagons were from Southport and were used as barriers. When the narrow gauge line closed the explosives were moved in lorries like the one seen at the far end of the sidings. IIRC they were short wheelbase Ford Ds. It was only a few hundred yards from the factory gate, over the canal bridge and through the station car park to reach the sidings. The explosives were for commercial use, though I`m not sure where.

At Chorley ROF, obviously the explosives were for military use. The empty wagons were taken into depot by an MOD loco and loaded wagons pushed back out, BR staff were not allowed beyond the gates. Security staff were present at all times during shunting. Reporting numbers were 6F83 Walton Old Junction to Chorley ROF, which also conveyed traffic for GKN at Douglas Bank, near Wigan Wallgate and Metal Box at Westhoughton. The return working was 6F82 Chorley ROF to Arpley Sidings, via Preston.

The Gathurst train was a trip working from Springs Branch, which ran round at Burscough Bridge, if there was no traffic for Southport. Target 72, 85 and 90 were used at different times.

 

Hi There,

 

Did you ever work trains to the Ordnance depot near Burscough Junction station that was accessed by the south curve ?

 

Gibbo.

[Fat Controller]

I used to pass the depot at Black Callerton quite often; the road deliveries used a SWB Ford D-series, or possibly a Cargo, with no obvious markings, bar the 'ICI' logo. I don't suppose they'd have a sign saying 'no explosives are left in this van overnight'.... The explosives were for mining and quarrying, there being a lot of open-cast workings around there.

[nigb55009]

Gibbo, no I didn`t ,that traffic had finished by the time I started. But you reminded me, I have a Liverpool area trip notice dated May 1975 which shows 9T87 serving  Douglas Bank (GKN), Burscough Bridge ROF as required and Gathurst. The coal traffic to Southport ran as 9T93 0815 Walton Old Junction to Southport arriving 0939 and departing as 9T93 1200 Southport to Springs Branch Engine Shed Sidings arriving at 1249.

In 1983, when I started as a Guard T90 covered Gathurst, I don`t think there was much coal traffic left, but if there was the coal wagons were used as barrier wagons. There would have been barrier wagons between the ROF and Gathurst traffic, because of the different types of explosives from each location.

By the time the Gathurst traffic ended, 6T72 covered what was left of the Wigan area trip freight.