Mol's MSC Wagons

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Ray, great views.

That brake van was one of a pair bought by the MSC in the 1960s to replace an even older pair of ex-LNWR vans. 

When I say ‘pair’ actually neither pair were identical, being different diagrams.

I do have some photos of them and some other updates for this thread myself but I’m away from home at the moment. 

[Mol_PMB]

Following on from Ray's post about the brake vans at Ellesmere Port, here's an earlier photo of 6372:

And it's not-quite-twin, 6373:

Both of these are Midland/LMS transition period, there are differences in the panelling of the balcony ends, the side handrails and the diagonal bracing.

The ends were originally black, then yellow which faded to cream.

There was a model of one of these made:

https://thewagonyard.co.uk/product/msc-brake-van-n-gauge/

 

They were bought by the MSC in 1962 to replace these two old ex-LNWR vans:

The MSC did not use brake vans on the main part of its system, but they were used in the Stanlow area where heavy oil trains worked up and down a steep gradient.

Intriguingly, MSC freight trains could run over BR lines at Ellesmere Port without a brake van.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Amongst the 16 mineral wagons I am currently working on some RCH minerals, which will represent the Lancashire Tar Distillers internal-user vehicles. They carried pitch blocks from Weaste and Cadishead to Partington, where they were tipped into ships.

By the 1960s some of them were in a sorry state; I'm currently doing a presentable-ish 7-plank wagon based on a Lionheart RTR, and a wreck of an 8-plank based on a Slaters kit. Both have had more detail added and are part-way through weathering. They are both based on photos of real wagons at Cadishead:

 

On other matters, I had a bit of an ebay accident last week and spent a bit too much money on a pair of old hopper kits.

They appear to be a reasonable representation of the LMS 20-ton hoppers although I'm not entirely sure if they are supposed to be the earlier D1669 or the later type (D1893/4, D1941/2) which were a few inches taller.

There appear to be some challenges in the fit of the hopper components, and the wheelbase is wrong, but I hope I can make something good from them in due course.

Here are some on the MSC bank near Irwell Park, with a Hudswell Clarke 'long tank' and one of the big Hudswell Clarke diesel-electrics just visible behind:

 

 

 

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

And it's not-quite-twin, 6373:

Both of these are Midland/LMS transition period, there are differences in the panelling of the balcony ends, the side handrails and the diagonal bracing.

I'm wondering what the significance of the yellow painted end is on the tank wagon.

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Ruston said:

I'm wondering what the significance of the yellow painted end is on the tank wagon.

I'm afraid I can't answer that one!

61653 was a Shell bitumen tank, design code TT044L. A quick search for images didn't find any others with yellow ends.

[hmrspaul]

22 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm afraid I can't answer that one!

61653 was a Shell bitumen tank, design code TT044L. A quick search for images didn't find any others with yellow ends.

There are several here https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/sukobitumentta some with red cross. 

 

Even a miniature one here https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sukobitumen/e18453a31 and https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sukolaggedbogie/e113c86df

 

Paul

[Mol_PMB]

It's been a while since I last posted on this thread, but I thought I'd breathe some life into it with my latest project.

The Dapol anchor mount tanks grabbed my attention when they were first announced, and I've ended up buying 6 of the smaller Class B type (so far).

They're all getting some degree of detailing and weathering, some having more substantial conversion work.

 

I thought that before I started destroying the last two, I'd post a photo of the unmodified models.

The starting point for four of my models is the Midland Tar Distillers tank, as seen here straight out of the box. This has steam heating coils (at the left-hand end in this photo) and a low filler hatch with single clamp:

The other two are/were the Gulf version, also seen here straight out of the box. This has no steam coils, a taller filler hatch with 3 clamps, also ladders and walkways. Gulf had a depot in Trafford Park served by the MSC Railway and this model is actually based on a prototype photo taken in Trafford Park, so this one wagon will retain its identity but will receive additional detailing and weathering.

 

This teaser shows progress on the four wagons currently being worked on. The brass thing in the foreground will be wrapped round one of them to represent a lagged tank. I'll post some updates on this thread over the next few weeks which will hopefully see this rake approach completion.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Mol_PMB]

A little more progress on these tonight. I have prepared the various plates to mount on the solebars, and since taking the photo I have primed them.

If you look closely these will give you a clue about the various prototypes I'm modelling.

I've also soldered the cladding etch into a tube, and made up and soldered on the cladding band clamps. Not all quite in line, as on the prototype!

The final wagon that I'm only just starting (because I was waiting for the etch) is Manchester Oil Refinery 126, like this:

(Photo posted by Peter Sedge on Flickr)

Also seen in colour but hiding in the background here, a slide I bought on ebay and have also posted on Flickr:

 

[Sweet pea]

Nice to see you back posting Mol. Looking forward to seeing these tankers when finished. I do like the cladding with the band straps.👍

[Mol_PMB]

A brief update on some of this evening's progress. I have been adding details and transfers to several of the wagons, and the creosote tank is leading the pack in terms of completion. Here are some photos of a trial dry assembly of it, with many bits just propped in place. I'll try and line them up better when I glue them!

 

This is a BR diagram 1/633 14t Creosote tank. It's appropriate for my MSC 'Boysnope Bump' layout because these were latterly filled at Lancashire Tar Distillers Cadishead site, on the MSC Railway.

None were originally lettered 'L.T.D. CADISHEAD' but this was added later to some wagons. Without a clear photo to work from I've assumed that the alteration was made in white paint, contrasting with the original pale yellow lettering appropriate for a departmental vehicle.

 

The starting point was the Dapol Gulf tank because it has the right top details.

The brake gear has been modified (largely repositioning the original Dapol components) to represent the BR wagons which only had brake shoes on one side.

The 'wing nuts' on the filler clamps on these wagons are very fragile bits of plastic, so I have cut them off, drilled through and replaced them with fine wire.

On the right-hand end I have added a representation of the fittings for the heating coils, these are different from the type supplied on the other Dapol wagons.

The ladder (there is only one) and data panels are from a custom etch that I had made based on my artwork, to provide details for this batch of wagons. Thanks to Iain at 4DModelshop for the excellent service and quality result. The wagon number plate is from the same etch.

 

The end result is pretty close to the prototype. Ideally the tank diameter would be 2mm greater but I decided the discrepancy was too small to be worth bothering with. It's less than 5% out.

The next stage is to dismantle it so I can weather the tank and chassis separately, and then to reassemble.

 

Photos of these in service as creosote tanks are scarce - in fact I haven't seen any. If you have, please point me in the right direction!

There is a builder's photo brand new which is reproduced in several books.

Here's one in later departmental service carrying oil (maybe transformer oil?), thanks to Adrian Nicholls on Flickr:

There's also one preserved on the GCR and this blog was very useful in providing detail images for the model:

https://quornwagonandwagon.co.uk/2021/04/18/18-04-21-frantic-wagon-restoration/

 

Paul Bartlett has a gallery of the larger 22t Creosote tanks which I will use as inspiration for the weathering:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcreosotezrv

He also has a couple of these in another gallery, again in later departmental service not for creosote:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/db999xxxtank

Interestingly these don't seem to have ladders, unlike the preserved one and the one pictured above.

 

That'll do for tonight. I'll provide an update on at least one of the other tanks tomorrow.

 

Mol

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mol_PMB
Added one more reference

[airnimal]

It's good to see a tank wagon modelled with this level of detail.  My own model of an early tank wagon had a similar filler cap. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by airnimal

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks. That early tank wagon you’ve built is beautiful! I have plans to do a similar ancient one, once I’ve finished the current batch. There was a firm called ‘Reesoils’ in Trafford Park which had one very old wooden-framed tank wagon that survived surprisingly late. 

[doilum]

Were the Manchester Oil Refinery wagons " internal use" to the MSC system, or did they travel out onto the network?

Edited December 14, 2023 by doilum

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, doilum said:

Were the Manchester Oil Refinery wagons " internal use" to the MSC system, or did they travel out onto the network?

They travelled out onto the network. They were certainly main-line registered and were fitted with electrification flashes when the main-line wires went up.

There are photos of them at Trafford Park and Ellesmere Port, places which were not connected internally by the MSC Railway but required a main-line trip.

 

Manchester Oil Refinery produced specialist oils which would have had customers nationwide, but I suspect typical sale quantities would have been smaller than a tank-full so they may have been dispatched in drums in normal freight wagons, or by road?

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Today's progress has been mainly on the Manchester Oil Refinery lagged tank, one of the more involved conversions.

I believe these were from a batch built for MOR around 1952, but the lagging was added later (approx 1964) to some of the wagons.

It's basically complete now but needs a bit of cleaning up before painting.

 

The cladding is a custom etch made to fit this wagon. I removed the tank ends for use on another project and replaced them with flat plasticard. I then wrapped the tank in a few layers of insulation tape to represent the lagging thickness, until it was a good fit in the cladding. After fitting the cladding I reinstated the tank details.

 

[Michael Edge]

I've just seen your request on the IRS forum, I built one of the 0-6-0F locos for Herculaneum Dock using this drawing.

351 AB 0-6-0F.pdf

I made a few mistakes on it, as revealed when I measured one in Glasgow transport museum but much of it was based on a Barclay weight diagram - it may be of some use to you. The biggest error was the overall width, as shown by the red line outside the buffer beam but from your photo the 0-4-0 may have been narrower.

The model looks OK though

 

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I've just seen your request on the IRS forum, I built one of the 0-6-0F locos for Herculaneum Dock using this drawing.

351 AB 0-6-0F.pdf 55.66 kB · 0 downloads

I made a few mistakes on it, as revealed when I measured one in Glasgow transport museum but much of it was based on a Barclay weight diagram - it may be of some use to you. The biggest error was the overall width, as shown by the red line outside the buffer beam but from your photo the 0-4-0 may have been narrower.

The model looks OK though

 

Many thanks, that's very helpful indeed, and your model looks superb.

I think the cab shape may be the same for both the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 versions, certainly on the 0-4-0 the cab window shape looks odd so far above the reservoir, probably intended to fit the larger reservoir on the 0-6-0 version.

 

The Lobitos fireless loco would be ideal to go with my current tank wagons project, which are still in progress and seen here lit in the winter sun just now:

 

[Mol_PMB]

I've now got the last two of this group basically complete, and ready for weathering.

These represent two of the tanks operated by Manchester Oil Refinery, in their colourful green and yellow livery.

127 is in as-built condition, while 126 is one of the tanks that were later lagged.

Although I'm happy with the colours, I haven't managed to get a perfectly smooth paint finish on these two. I'm hoping that it won't be so obvious once I have weathered them.

 

Thanks to John Peck of Precision Labels for the custom decals for all this batch of tank wagons - excellent service and very prompt delivery.

 

Back in the day when these tanks were in use around Manchester and Ellesmere Port, they were one of the prototypes selected by Hornby/Meccano for a tinplate O gauge model. They got the livery pretty accurate, though my cheap example came natually weathered. Here it is with the two Dapol conversions:

 

My task this week is to weather the six anchor-mount tanks, and I have a couple of older tank wagons waiting in the wings for a similar treatment.

[montyburns56]

6 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

 

 

It amuses me that the design concept for this was essentially "chuck a giant oil drum on to a wagon chassis"

[Sweet pea]

@Mol_PMB you have done a lovely job with the two tanks. Its great to see you painting them in the green and yellow livery.

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

 

 

It amuses me that the design concept for this was essentially "chuck a giant oil drum on to a wagon chassis"

What looks like the oil drum is actually the cladding. On the prototype, the tank inside is the same on both 126 and 127.

Here's the lagged version:

Also here, on the right:

 

And the unlagged version:

https://hmrs.org.uk/abk502-lobitos-ellesmere-port-14t-tank-wagon-127-stanlow-c1972-r3l-part-of-similar-tank-wagons-120-4-al.html

Also here:

 

[Ruston]

I like the lagged tank. I don't remember seeing that modelled before, except for my own rather naff attempt, where I made the outer cladding from card.

 

A challenge would be to do one with that insulation that looks like it was sprayed on.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Ruston said:

I like the lagged tank. I don't remember seeing that modelled before, except for my own rather naff attempt, where I made the outer cladding from card.

 

A challenge would be to do one with that insulation that looks like it was sprayed on.

Thanks! I also thought it was an unusual thing to model.

Another challenge would be to model one where the lagging is held on with chicken wire, like this beauty posted on Flickr by John Turner. I'm going to do some older tanks including a lagged tar tank, but I haven't yet been able to prove that the chicken-wire clad ones crossed the Pennines.

 

 

 

[Ruston]

This is the sort that I meant by sprayed on insulation. I don't know whether it was sprayed on or not, but that's how I guessed it was applied as the anchor cables are embedded in the insulation.

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Ruston said:

This is the sort that I meant by sprayed on insulation. I don't know whether it was sprayed on or not, but that's how I guessed it was applied as the anchor cables are embedded in the insulation.

You're right, that does look sprayed on. An ideal visitor for ICI Beeching Works?

 

The third wagon here is another lagged one I'd like to model, this is clad and the cladding wraps around the longitudinal tiebar:

On the one just visible to the right here, the cladding wraps over part of the diagonals too. Sadly I don't know what the rest of wagon No6 looks like, but the other two vehicles in this picture might be making an appearance on this thread eventually...

(Kraft image from Manchester Library Archives)