Ron Solly Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Another version http://www.dccconcep...rnout_motor.htm The 22 page manual is also very helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Smaller size IS interesting. Enormous 22 page manual is disconcerting. Exchange rate makes cost baffling How many years of use before the reliability can be assumed to be comparable. still about time someone came up with a smaller version of the Tortoise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Solly Posted June 2, 2010 Author Share Posted June 2, 2010 The 22 page manual is not just about the new motor but other aspects of modelling points - download it & have look, I found it interesting. For some more info, look at Post #9 on http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13408&pid=141767&st=0&&do=findComment&comment=141767 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 2, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2010 Exchange rate makes cost baffling £174 for 12 at todays exchange rate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Bromsgrove Models will resell it soon according to the page. Interesting to see a smaller Tortoise and the connections on the bottom look good though I don't have an issue with soldering. I'd like to see the internal switches as that was always the failing of the Tortoise. Thing is though, they do cost more and you can make servo drives for much less now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 £174 for 12 at todays exchange rate Thanks - That makes them a wee bit more expensive that the T - which is a bit of a shame. The size of the T is not such a big issue AFAIC. Of course I can solder so I cannot see a competative advantage of these over the already very reliable Tortoise. That is not to say they may be very good - but where is the incentive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 *** Wait a short time... It'll be reviewed in the UK mags soon enough, and in UK shops within a few days now... Pricing will actually be T competitive in the UK - $AU pricing doesn't necessarily translate directly to UK pricing. Differences from tortoise are huge... We identified ten weaknesses in T's design and as it was a "design new from the ground up" project, we fixed them all. In each area Cobalt is a better quality product - in engineering, design, application flexibility, installability, control and materials choice. Its also most certainly lots smaller, quieter, much more robust, better regulated and much more versatile mount wise.... Re specific questions: Reliability A production unit has already far exceeded 150,000 repeat cycles on continuous test with pretty well zero wear so far, so wear based reliability is not an issue - that is already many lifetimes operations. We did many other tests including leaving it stalled at voltages well above anything reasonable for many days at a time and it was 100% unharmed... There will be NO reliability issues - we were very sure about before we gave it its lifetime warranty. Materials are as good as it gets too. Gears are fibreglass filled Nylon 66 which is an especially durable engineering plastic, and the gear ratio is double that of T, so there is NO stress in operation and no relaxing at end of throw - its also very manageable for 3 position semaphores and similar needs (As per US prototype) because of the better gearing. The case is a much higher grade of plastic than T, and although its much smaller there isa ctually as much material in our case which has been designed to be pretty well indestructable. The motor is properly protected and it is far more voltage tolerant as a result - very stable 6 to 15v, and can be totally silent in operation. The moving parts are all properly supported throughout which contributes to stability, long life and smoothness. Internal switches. Very specifically designed as break before make for frog switching and with a heavy copper, 1.6mm fibreglass PCB, which has been gold plated (literally) Vs low cost bare copper standard Phenolic PCB in T. Our contact/switch structure is better built and far more reliable. To make doubly sure we have also tooled for specially shape strengthened phosphor bronze wipers which are mounted on a much more carefully managed actuator than T, so they are totally consistent and reliable and capable of handling anything they need to. The manual. Cobalt needs only a little info for itself, but we took a lot of trouble to show how to wire it several ways and how to interface it with any possible DCC decoder and went all the way to explaining how to lay track and ballast without tears... Its intended as an overall resource, not just a manual. Its also there to download and look any time you want. kind regards Richard DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 It'll be reviewed in the UK mags soon enough As one who is very sceptical about magazine "reviews" and believes most to be just another form of advertising - nothing said there will convince me - of this - or any - new product. Differences from tortoise are huge... We identified ten weaknesses in T's design I have been using T's for many years and other than the old track fault (long since fixed - and easy to do anyway) I ican think of no "fault" other than its size. An issue that you are going to win on +++ (though as I indicated it is not an incentive to try something new (and untested in real world) I don't find the T in anyway noisy - so that isn't an advantage. ... and quality? well what can be "better" than a T? - already as good as it gets. Sure anything new needs to be as good. Mounting - alternatives might be intriguing. Some new ideas on this may be welcome - especially if they are standard. The T mounts are a waste of money and can be solved with a simple block of wood. we gave it its lifetime warranty. As good as the the T - it just had to be didn't it. Note I am not trying to be negative here. I have always said that there is room for something a bit smaller than the T which has failed to evolve itself. But the T does deserve its reputation hard won over many years and so it is going to be very difficult to convince those like me who find them faultless. That doesn't mean that I will ignore them. I still think price will be a big player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 *** I too used T for a very long time... for almost as long as they have been available in fact :-). That experience stood me in good stead, as what I learned over that time was that things can always be better, and thats all that we set out to do... make a better point motor. As for Cobalt, so far everyone who had a chance to "beta test" them before release has seen the differences quite clearly... and in all probability most of them will change for future purchases - in fact several have already followed through on that. Review samples are also on the way to several of UKs more respected modellers in a day or two - I have no doubt their opinion will also be known soon enough. Of course reserving judgement until it seen is natural and I wouldn't expect anyone to treat them any other way... the proof of the pudding is always in the eating. I'm also a realist, so I also certainly don't see one totally supplanting the other at all... some will change and some will not... I'm very comfortable with that, and I am also very confident that Cobalt will earn a fair market share for good reasons ...and have a place on many layouts before too long. As with most things the market will make up its own mind..... as I said ealier, lets just wait and see. regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moria Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 Wonder if there are any plans for a north american distributor. Although, will have to go some to beat the price over here of $156 for 12 T which is $13 each. Regards Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Richard - interesting news indeed, and I look forward to seeing these. However, your installation pdf crashed my Adobe reader 5.1. (Admittedly, 5.1 is a tad venerable now, but I refuse to install updates, having suffered from how much more bloatware Adobe software has become, and I've never experienced a complete crash before when opening 'modern' pdfs.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 17, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hi Richard, will they operate an O gauge point? I may change my plans to make my new layout boards deeper than the norm to accommodate tortoi ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 £174 for 12 at todays exchange rate They've come out £2 more than that which is a shame http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/pi1826313866.htm?categoryId=47 Nice to get the screws with them though and the ability to mount sideways Richard - interesting news indeed, and I look forward to seeing these. However, your installation pdf crashed my Adobe reader 5.1. (Admittedly, 5.1 is a tad venerable now, but I refuse to install updates, having suffered from how much more bloatware Adobe software has become, and I've never experienced a complete crash before when opening 'modern' pdfs.) Well it works fine in the latest version of 9 and I only installed the reader.. Superb manual including all the detail on electrics and wiring the points, stick a 3 way in there too and you'll be comprehensive! Hi Richard, will they operate an O gauge point? I may change my plans to make my new layout boards deeper than the norm to accommodate tortoi ..... The 'from Z to Gauge 1' might be a bit of a give-away there.. If you go with these you wont need to make your boards deep enough for Tortoise which is one of the benefits.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 17, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hi Richard, will they operate an O gauge point? I may change my plans to make my new layout boards deeper than the norm to accommodate tortoi ..... No disrespect to the new product here but don't burn any bridges. This is a new product after all, so either wait or make your boards capable of taking existing products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 They've come out £2 more than that which is a shame http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/pi1826313866.htm?categoryId=47 Nice to get the screws with them though and the ability to mount sideways Ouch expensive screws ! It looks like importation and exchange rates are going to take away the only real advantage (other than size) - I still can't quite see what all the "extras" is about or if needed. I also like the simplicity of a one sheet A4 manual provided with the Tortoise describing clearly the alternatives of wiring. What I don't need is a manual telling me the obvious of how to wire a point. Sure, provide that info - yet again - for those that still don't know but it must have been provided dozens of times already on RMWeb and just about every forum and model railway website. The T will mount horizontally if you use a block of wood and bend the wire ... but even then it will be bigger compared to these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 I also like the simplicity of a one sheet A4 manual provided with the Tortoise describing clearly the alternatives of wiring. What I don't need is a manual telling me the obvious of how to wire a point. Sure, provide that info - yet again - for those that still don't know but it must have been provided dozens of times already on RMWeb and just about every forum and model railway website. The fact people keep asking clearly means many don#t know how and don't like looking far to find out. With the demise of Electricnose (which had the best diagrams imho) then its nice to see it simply explained for those who need it in the instructions and i'm glad Richard went to the trouble. Hopefully the exchange rate improves in the future though as I only paid £8.50 each for the batch of tortoise I have so its hard to justify the extra in my case though I can see the improvements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 *** A few quick responses: There are some who will change and some who won't - thats normality and we are happy with it. We are confident its an excellent product too :-). Miss Prism - sorry about the PDF crash, but Adobe has moved on and I have to keep upgraded to keep best possible global compatibility. Believe me at the cost of Acrobat professional I wish I didn't have to :-). Its just that your version really is very many steps from the current one now... You really should make the change.... I've never had an adobe download related problem, but do download from adobe to be sure of a more secure source. Redgate models - yes, no problem with an O gauge point. plently of movement for any popular gauge. As is with hinged blades but if you use sprung blades and code 125 you may possibly want to use a 0.9mm wire in place of the 0.8 supplied if the Baseboard is also thick. Price: I could have lowered cost a lot by using lower quality materials - even the tooling would have been cheaper but them it would have only been as good at T, not a better engineered product. One UK retailers price isn't necessarily market price. We don't set UK price really but watch a while. Stock is only now being delivered in small qtys to UK. Full stock will take time as the first two production runs are sold out totally. Beast: It'll do the job just fine... we have passed 200,000 operations from our motor on test now - thats about 200 years in relatively heavy regular use on a busy layout... Some wear but still going strong :-). It also survived a week stalled at a voltage much, much higher than recommended maximum, so its electrically very safe indeed. However yes, I too always wait until I see something before I decide. Thats common sense. Kenton: Of course the screws add nothing to the cost effectively - even though we add 5 instead of 4 in case you lose one. Such things are done to make it easier for owners, thats all. Blame the UK government for the exchange rate which is what really affects price there and here of course.... The manual is there to help those who need it - and covers everything from wiring to how to lay track properly and even modify a peco point so it no longer looks like a toy. I took many hours out of my free time to write it to help modellers in every area related to pointwork and am at a total loss that you see it as a negative. There is a small label on each pack for those who do not like to read. The extras are there because they are needed by many modellers. Not all are blessed with the knowledge, and in real life many experienced modellers who saw them at the "release show" also approved of and thought the added items extremely useful to them as well - and happily bought paid good money for them. Is all about choice. Beginner or pragmatic clearly explained basic advice on RMweb? Not an RMweb strength really is it. To be quite honest, many new modellers do not have the courage to post on RMweb because of the reactions they see here far too often... Craig: You are right - I think electricnose is a big loss... It was always well done. kind regards Richard DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I have ordered a pair of these - for an application where a tortoise simply wont fit - lucky for me the Cobalt will , so I've no worries at all about paying the price. I know there are other ways to mount the tortoise motors - plus off the shelf adaptor plates and remote operating kits - but taking the latter as an example - a remote kit for the tortiose - last time I looked, is approx £5 on its own. I could use tortioi but it would be a faff - as said before I dont mind paying the couple of quid more for the convenience of plonking one of these little motors straight in. If these motors mean you can build shallower baseboards too, then theres potentially quite a big saving to be had on timber if you were starting a project from scratch - It never pays to use cheapo bongo wood - so after paying for good timber you obvioulsy want it to go as far as possible and not be wasteful. tfn JOn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 £174 for 12 at todays exchange rate And over £175 today! And that's if you take the official rate - by the time we've paid Visa conversion charges the actual rate is considerably worse. So £176 for 12 doesn't seem so bad after all, especially when you take into account that they will be carriage free, so a further subsidy for you!! BTW we've only 1 12-pack left now!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 £174 for 12 at todays exchange rate The exchange rate is crippling over here as well. At the moment the Euro is as weak as water against sterling.Much better against the US & Aussie dollar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Kenton: Of course the screws add nothing to the cost effectively - even though we add 5 instead of 4 in case you lose one. Such things are done to make it easier for owners, thats all. The manual is there to help those who need it - and covers everything from wiring to how to lay track properly and even modify a peco point so it no longer looks like a toy. I took many hours out of my free time to write it to help modellers in every area related to pointwork and am at a total loss that you see it as a negative. There is a small label on each pack for those who do not like to read. My point about the manual is that it is a daunting tome which contains a great deal of irrelevant information to the vast majority of modellers who know full well how to wire a point but who do not know the differences in wiring this point motor from others that they may be used to. The information on the point wiring IS available for anyone who is able to look and they will need to have that ability to find your site and the manual as well. It is not that the information is of no use to a beginner just that it makes it harder to find detail and may put off the more experienced from bothering (like me ) Sadly it did not clearly answer the one question for me - does it have all the same options for wiring as the Tortoise? I'm also afraid the "many hours of my free time" argument/beg for sympathy does not help as most of the responses on RMWeb and the many other forums and sites dedicated to Railway modelling / railway history are also provided by "many hours of someone's free time" - but without an associated commercial agenda. The extras are there because they are needed by many modellers. Not all are blessed with the knowledge, and in real life many experienced modellers who saw them at the "release show" also approved of and thought the added items extremely useful to them as well - and happily bought paid good money for them. Is all about choice. I have no issue with choice. I am genuinely glad to see this as an alternative to the Tortoise. The point I don't like being made is that it is better than the Tortoise which is as yet unproven in the market A manufacturer (and most reviewers) will always paint the best possible picture of their product. I don't blame them they have a product to sell. It is difficult to believe that and very difficult for a user to see added value in something that is "better engineered" than an existing product that is close to faultless except after years of real life use. The user will make their judgment initially on its size (a very clear advantage) and possibly on price (though it is clear so far that the exchange rate is crippling this). Beginner or pragmatic clearly explained basic advice on RMweb? Not an RMweb strength really is it. To be quite honest, many new modellers do not have the courage to post on RMweb because of the reactions they see here far too often... I think that is an unjustified slight on the value of RMWeb as a resource and on the many of members who post answers to the many (often repeated) questions. It is understandable that sometimes when the same old question pops up and it is obvious no attempt has been made to use the search facilities that the answer may be just a sharp pointer to the existing threads but almost always at least there is a rapid response. The beginner does not have to make a post or start a new topic to take advantage of the existing resource. But in all the 5+ years of RMWeb I have not seen a new member treated badly or unwelcomed except for the odd few who have tried to take advantage of the site for other motives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Solly Posted June 18, 2010 Author Share Posted June 18, 2010 Kenton, the manual does show the wiring & it is identical to Tortoise. Not only for DC but gives info for DCC as well. Easily found by looking at the Home Page of the manufacturer - LHS buttons has one already labelled for the point motor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted June 18, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2010 Going off topic somewhat but for reading PDFs I prefer Foxit reader http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/reader/ Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 * Cobalt is incredibly reliable. High quality engineering plastic, top quality gold plated 1.6mm fibreglass PCBs and very careful design make it bulletproof... So we can very confidently give Cobalt the best warranty ever! I somehow think that if someone is waving a Colt 45 around my layout that I'd not be too worried about my point motors, but it's good to know they would survive even if I didn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Ive just unpacked mine and have been able to power them up and test them very quickly - thanks to the spring terminals - no soldering needed. Im not sure what all this kerfuffle about the manual is about to be honest Not everyone one is online to hoover all this knowledge off the internet - Im probably the only one in my local model railway club who uses the net to help with my hobby. Anways im happy Here's a direct size comparison with a tortoise in the same orientation - it turns out mine will fit better laid flat (as shown in the second picture )- the casing has mounting points for you to fix it this way (unlike the tortoise) as well 'standing up'. Anyways - means i can finish the fiddleyard now a neat bit of kit - im sold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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