How were locos allocated to sheds?

[Nearholmer]

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

BR Database takes all the information from published books. Mostly from the ABCs, RCTS and Yeadons.

 

It's a one man project to put it all the information in one place. It clearly states on the home page that it's incomplete and there will be errors.

 

That's why you should always check as many sources as you can.

 

There was a case where so called enthusiasts were giving false information to the magazines in the late 1960s. The scrapping information being particularly compromised.

 

 

 

 

Jason

I used to "spot" in the 50s and early 60s and personally saw locos that had been withdrawn and supposedly scrapped, sitting at the end of a siding in e.g. Derby Works.

AFAIAC scrapped means significant parts removed to make the loco unlikely to be re-instated but these looked pretty intact.

I assume the withdrawal date was when it was "decommisioned", once it had ended up on the scrap line from whence it would never return it was "scrapped" officially and removed from book stock, if not physically.

Over the years I had "copped" quite a few numbers that had been removed from the current ABC guides

Edited January 27, 2021 by melmerby

[Ian Smeeton]

HI Johnster (and others)

 

While not an exhaustive survey of Tondu's allocation, the shedbash blogspot shows at least some of the locos that you have been mentioning.

 

 https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/search?q=tondu

 

along with the occasional 'foreigner'

 

I am sure that I have referenced this site on your 'Welsh Valleys in the 50's' thread, but maybe not.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I used to "spot" in the 50s and early 60s and personally saw locos that had been withdrawn and supposedly scrapped, sitting at the end of a siding in e.g. Derby Works.

AFAIAC scrapped means significant parts removed to make the loco unlikely to be re-instated but these looked pretty intact.

I assume the withdrawal date was when it was "decommisioned", once it had ended up on the scrap line from whence it would never return it was "scrapped" officially and removed from book stock, if not physically.

Over the years I had "copped" quite a few numbers that had been removed from the current ABC guides

Withdrawn meant exactly what it said - the engine had been withdrawn from traffic and had been taken off the books.  -Stored' meant that the engine was not being used in traffic but was still on the books.  In the early 1960s you could wander round a number of WR sheds and see engines which were not in traffic and, increasingly, had the name and number plates removed and possibly even parts removed but that did not discriminate between engines which had been withdrawn and engines which were stored although if there was a sack over the chimney it was probaly likely to be stored rather than withdrawn.

 

Withdrawn did not mean the engine had been scrapped. but that it had been taken out of capital stock and would eventually be either sent to Swindon for cutting-up or would be put on the disposal list asking scrap yards to make a bid for that engine (and whatever else was on that particular list).   And withdrawn engines could sometimes hang around for months although it became increasingly the case as the '60s progressed that they would be disposed of at the first opportunity simply in order to get rid of them. 

 

If you look on the page linked below you wil find my photo of withdrawn 1658 taken at Swindon, on a siding near the Stock Shed on 10 January 1965, complete with cabside numberplate.  BR Loco Database shows it as withdrawn in November 1964 and cut-up by Cashmores in Newport on 4 January 1965.  The very precision of the latter date suggests to me that unless someone was at Cashmores on that date what the date actually represeents is either the date it went on the tender list for disposal or the date on which that list closed.  H When teh engine was actually moved to Newport would be a very different matter.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66924-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-1/page/3/

 

On the previous page you will find my photo of 5746, withdrawn  in August 1962 still at Didcot on 28 July 1963- withdrawn but still some months away from being cut-up.  A couple of sidings away but as equally blocked-in by other engines you'll find 1445 - still in traffic but very obviously stored and it wasn't withdrawn until a year lay ter by which time it had been transferred to Gloucester. (which might possibly have been a paper transfer?).

 

Then there's 1007, withdrawn in Septemder (4 w/e 05.10) 1962 according  both the database and the SLS .  And the latter shows it as in store at Didcot 4w/e 14.8.63 - which is a bit odd because it had been withdrawn forthe best part of a year so why record it as in store?  the situation for 1018 was little different based on SLS information.  I expect taht what had actually happened was the two 'Counties' had been placed in store and were withdrawn subsequently but a visitor to Didcot noted them as 'in store' because of their appearance - but the plates had gone which was usually a sign for an engine with brass plass plates that it had been condemned.

 

5025 is even more interesting as it had probably been sent to Didcot for store and i wonder if it ever got to Hereford or was actually condemned on account of irs condition before it left Didcot?.

 

 

 

 

l 

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, Ian Smeeton said:

HI Johnster (and others)

 

While not an exhaustive survey of Tondu's allocation, the shedbash blogspot shows at least some of the locos that you have been mentioning.

 

 https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/search?q=tondu

 

along with the occasional 'foreigner'

 

I am sure that I have referenced this site on your 'Welsh Valleys in the 50's' thread, but maybe not.

 

Regards

 

Ian

I have seen this before but dismissed it a little as of course it is a record of locos that were observed on shed at TDU on the dates mentioned, rather than the allocation information I needed to number my locos, but I may have been a bit hasty.  There is a revelation here that I'd not previously noticed or seen mentioned elsewhere, and a new class, 5208 between 1954 and 1963.  Outside steam pipes I believe and if it had a stepped running plate raised over the cylinders that's another variation, and a running mate for 4218 on the coal.

 

Thank you Ian; a useful discovery!

[br2975]

For you John.

.

Tondu 1952

.

Photographer unknown.

[MyRule1]

Although slightly OT to the OP's question, I have picked up on some comments made on this thread and these 2 pages from the 1942 LNER (Southern Area)  Appendix give some idea about the considerations as to what loco's could run where.

 

[The Lurker]

The section about forwarding engines in freight trains is interesting - rules seem to have changed since 1926 when the NBL built N15s were sent down by rail along the LNER. In the notes above, any engine exceeding 30 tons must be marshalled next to the train engine. But in Southern  Album (P Ransome Wallis)  P38there is a picture of an ex NBR S Class taking two N15s south. There are a couple of wagons between the train engine and the first of the N15s, and then a number of wagons before the next N15. The curve of the track prevents a view of anything further in the train.

 

Of course I could easily have misunderstood what is written above

[The Johnster]

17 hours ago, br2975 said:

For you John.

.

Tondu 1952

.

Photographer unknown.

With 4404 in the background facing the other way (these locos were turned halfway through each day’s work on the Porthcawl branch to even out flange wear.  The curves were really sharp, all locos other than these two being speed restricted to 5mph and even these only allowed 15mph).  
 

Location is Tondu shed yard looking towards Ogmore Jc.  Thanks, Brian; very interesting!

Edited January 29, 2021 by The Johnster

[keefer]

10 hours ago, The Lurker said:

The section about forwarding engines in freight trains is interesting - rules seem to have changed since 1926 when the NBL built N15s were sent down by rail along the LNER. In the notes above, any engine exceeding 30 tons must be marshalled next to the train engine. But in Southern  Album (P Ransome Wallis)  P38there is a picture of an ex NBR S Class taking two N15s south. There are a couple of wagons between the train engine and the first of the N15s, and then a number of wagons before the next N15. The curve of the track prevents a view of anything further in the train.

 

Of course I could easily have misunderstood what is written above

Would that maybe be for the purposes of weight distribution? So that not all the weight is in one short length of the train.

[pH]

10 hours ago, The Lurker said:

the NBL built N15s were sent down by rail along the LNER.

 

...
 

 in Southern  Album (P Ransome Wallis)  P38there is a picture of an ex NBR S Class taking two N15s south. 

I was confused. Why were North British N15s being moved south in groups, and to where?

 

https://nbrlocomotives.livejournal.com/1711.html

 

Then the penny dropped!
 

[Compound2632]

On 27/01/2021 at 15:33, Nearholmer said:

 

Thank you for that. I haven't laughed out loud so disconcertingly (to the rest of the family) for several days.

[pH]

On 27/01/2021 at 07:33, Nearholmer said:

 

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thank you for that. I haven't laughed out loud so disconcertingly (to the rest of the family) for several days.

I envisaged something like the Harry Potter sorting hat.

[adb968008]

Just to ride the crest of a wave, I thought i’d put a modern slant on it...

 

[The Stationmaster]

There's an amusing little piece in Kenneth Cook's book from the time when he was Principal Assistant to Hawksworth.  He took advantage of Hawksworth being away on leave to get it agreed to have a new 'Castle' named after Churchward and 7017 was duly named  'G.J. Churchward' in 1948.   A month or so later Cook saw it from his office passing Swindon in a filthy condition so he promptly arranged to have it transferred to Canton (Cardiff) which at that time had a very good reputation for the external cleanliness of its premium engines.  Next time Cook saw it it was positively shining.

 

I think he must have had a better view of the railway at Swindon than I did because I had to get up from my chair and use the window at the back of my office to see the railway and even then it was only an oblique view - and by then there were no 'Castles' to be seen at Swindon.  But I could at least see - some way off - the window that Cook must have looked out of.

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/01/2021 at 07:53, The Lurker said:

The section about forwarding engines in freight trains is interesting - rules seem to have changed since 1926 when the NBL built N15s were sent down by rail along the LNER. In the notes above, any engine exceeding 30 tons must be marshalled next to the train engine. But in Southern  Album (P Ransome Wallis)  P38there is a picture of an ex NBR S Class taking two N15s south. There are a couple of wagons between the train engine and the first of the N15s, and then a number of wagons before the next N15. The curve of the track prevents a view of anything further in the train.

 

Of course I could easily have misunderstood what is written above

Two different things I think.  The Instructions posted above referred to privately owned locos.  The Instructions for movement of dead locomotives (i.e. railway company owned stock, were different and generally an engine could only be moved coupled to the train engine with the prior permission of the Civil Engineer.   The spacer wagons were almost certainly there for axle loading or, more likely, bridge curve reasons.

[DCB]

On 26/01/2021 at 07:04, kevinlms said:

I was under the impression that some of these branches that really only needed 1 loco, had a gap in the public timetable. The idea was that the loco could be taken off the passenger service and made a return trip with a pick up goods, before returning to passenger duties.

Obviously a lot of factors, such as length of the line and traffic requirements. Perhaps a 3 loco service, with one taken off for freight duties. The permutations are endless.

The big influencer on the number of locos used on a branch within a set period was where the branch locos were shedded.  Some shed had tens of suitable locos such as Swindon for the Cirencester Branch, or Laira for Tavistock, others had very few Laira for Princetown and the Fowey branch shed (St Austel? St Blazey?)  only had one 14XX so in the former case twenty or thirty locos could be justified at a BLT albeit one at a time, and in the latter a couple of 44XX  or Fowey usually the same 14XX day after boring day. Again the Cirencester Branch engine changed daily so it would not be the same engine two days running.

 

The bit about N15's amused me, Both LNER  N15 0-6-2T "Cowlairs Bankers " and  SR N15 44-6-0  'king Arthurs were built by North British Loco works.  I too wondered why  0-6-2Ts were being towed south instead of running light. Then I realised it was a devious trick by the North British Railway folk to show the soft sassenachs what  a proper 0-6-2 tank looked like.   Sadly the Great Northern types never found out and clung to their N2 monstrosities until the devils own creation the  L1s appeared.

[D1001]

On 27/01/2021 at 15:15, Steamport Southport said:

 

BR Database takes all the information from published books. Mostly from the ABCs, RCTS and Yeadons.

 

It's a one man project to put it all the information in one place. It clearly states on the home page that it's incomplete and there will be errors.

 

That's why you should always check as many sources as you can.

 

Some should also be taken with a massive pinch of salt. The "What Happened To Steam" books for example. Not the fault of the author. I'm sure we'll all got a few of them, as they used to be cheap at preserved railway book shops. Basically a list of locomotives of a certain type (say GWR 4-6-0s) with final allocations, withdrawal and scrapping information.

 

There was a case where so called enthusiasts were giving false information to the magazines in the late 1960s. The scrapping information being particularly compromised.

 

Worth reading the articles that was published in Railway Magazine.

 

https://www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk/

 

Peter Hands later tried to do it again with proper sources.

 

https://www.whathappenedtosteam.com/

 

 

Jason

 

My sources do, as you say, include the Railway Observer magazines and Willie Yeadon books but also include many other sources, including many visits to the National Archives where I have taken over 50,000 photographs of railway related documents. I initially used Trains Illustrated/Modern Railways but have since used dozens of other sources including Peto, Baxter, Harris and the SLS magazines which have more accurate data than the RO.

 

The 3 x 350hp shunters mentioned above were indeed supposed to be allocated to Severn Tunnel Junction from new, not Tondu, and I have corrected this. The pannier tank 6762 was sent to Tondu from new as stated on BRDatabase but then was reallocated to Danygraig but the allocations from 1949-51 on the site are missing some data and I must make this a priority as it is the main source of complaint about the data because it obviously affects subsequent data.

 

If people find errors, please contact me - I have created a blog entry for this purpose:

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by D1001

[The Johnster]

Your efforts are much appreciated, D1001, and inconsistencies (I prefer this term to 'errors') are part of the game.  I fully understand that your information is subject to revision and correction as new date comes to light, but when we are talking about allocations that were made 70+ years ago, and there is scant follow-up or cross referencing available, it is reasonable to allow for a degree of anomaly.  In the case of the 350hp shunting engines, and given that I already knew that some of the type had appeared at STJ in 1955 for humping, it looks likely that the whole thing is down to a typo 86E for 86F, or even a tail being left off if the information has been transcribed from a hand written record.

 

Thank you for confirming 6762's presence at TDU, even if her specific purpose (or even if there was a specific purpose) is still a mystery.  If there is an answer, I suspect it lies in the loco's jointed coupling rods and the need to shunt sharp curvature, perhaps in a colliery or at the ROF Tremains site.

 

Keep up the Good Work; it is an absolutly pivotal part of my research into motive power for Cwmdimbath at this period.  My recent download of the John Hodges/Stuart Davies Tondu Valleys books has largely confirmed your input, and thrown up one or two new (to me, and rather delightful) curve balls, particularly in the matter of auto trailers, and some apparent inconsistencies regarding 4144.  5205 is another mystery, not mentioned in the books but present in shed visit records and listed as allox TDU.  It was the only 5202 there for some time, but there were several allocations in the early 60s.

 

 

 

[JimC]

Did all the 6700 and 6750s have jointed coupling rods? Has anyone got a photo or a drawing? I can't find anything on line.

Edited January 30, 2021 by JimC

[Miss Prism]

 

All Collett panniers had conventionally-jointed rods.

[D1001]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Your efforts are much appreciated, D1001, and inconsistencies (I prefer this term to 'errors') are part of the game.  I fully understand that your information is subject to revision and correction as new date comes to light, but when we are talking about allocations that were made 70+ years ago, and there is scant follow-up or cross referencing available, it is reasonable to allow for a degree of anomaly.  In the case of the 350hp shunting engines, and given that I already knew that some of the type had appeared at STJ in 1955 for humping, it looks likely that the whole thing is down to a typo 86E for 86F, or even a tail being left off if the information has been transcribed from a hand written record.

 

Thank you for confirming 6762's presence at TDU, even if her specific purpose (or even if there was a specific purpose) is still a mystery.  If there is an answer, I suspect it lies in the loco's jointed coupling rods and the need to shunt sharp curvature, perhaps in a colliery or at the ROF Tremains site.

 

Keep up the Good Work; it is an absolutly pivotal part of my research into motive power for Cwmdimbath at this period.  My recent download of the John Hodges/Stuart Davies Tondu Valleys books has largely confirmed your input, and thrown up one or two new (to me, and rather delightful) curve balls, particularly in the matter of auto trailers, and some apparent inconsistencies regarding 4144.  5205 is another mystery, not mentioned in the books but present in shed visit records and listed as allox TDU.  It was the only 5202 there for some time, but there were several allocations in the early 60s.

 

 

 

Interesting about 5205 - just had a look in the National Archive records I have - a document called "RAIL 254.95 - Register of monthly shed allocations of locomotive stock, 1937-38" lists 5205 as going to Tondu from Cardiff in January 1937 and staying until July of the same year. 5202 was already there. I would need to have a deeper look to see if any others went to Tondu aswell.

 

What are the inconsistencies regarding 4144? Maybe my records will shed some light on them.

[D1001]

On 27/01/2021 at 16:01, melmerby said:

I used to "spot" in the 50s and early 60s and personally saw locos that had been withdrawn and supposedly scrapped, sitting at the end of a siding in e.g. Derby Works.

AFAIAC scrapped means significant parts removed to make the loco unlikely to be re-instated but these looked pretty intact.

I assume the withdrawal date was when it was "decommisioned", once it had ended up on the scrap line from whence it would never return it was "scrapped" officially and removed from book stock, if not physically.

Over the years I had "copped" quite a few numbers that had been removed from the current ABC guides

 

Quite often the dates of scrapping in the press are the dates sold to the scrapyard,not the cutting dates. I used to have a lot more information regarding scrapping but took most of it down because of the aggressive and childish behaviour of some members of the 'What Really Happened to Steam' team. They threatened me with 'exposure' in the railway press for using Peter Hands "What Happened to Steam" booklets which were being revealed as inaccurate but honest records. Peter and his team did a lot of work fixing the misinformation that came out of a discredited correspondent of the RCTS in the late 1960's regarding steam scrapping. Peter unfortunately died a few years ago but his website is very well worth visiting as there is a lot of verified information.

The other team have done some great research to fix the errors but their blame culture seems to be part of a modern disease and it does them discredit.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, D1001 said:

Interesting about 5205 - just had a look in the National Archive records I have - a document called "RAIL 254.95 - Register of monthly shed allocations of locomotive stock, 1937-38" lists 5205 as going to Tondu from Cardiff in January 1937 and staying until July of the same year. 5202 was already there. I would need to have a deeper look to see if any others went to Tondu aswell.

 

What are the inconsistencies regarding 4144? Maybe my records will shed some light don them.

 

The Hodges/Davies books claim that 4144 was sent new to TDU in September 1946 along with 3100 to work the reinstated post war Porthcawl-Cardiff job.  3100 was valued for this due to the combination of no.4 boiler and 5'3" drivers enabling it to get away from the SWML stops smartly and keep out of the way of the faster traffic, a view confirmed to me by old firemen who were now drivers at Canton in the 70s.  4144 was supposed to be the backup loco, and used on general passenger work when 3100 was in service.  Rail UK, which seems to not display the information any more, claimed that 4145 came to TDU in September 1946, and was xfer, to Canton IIRC, 31/3/48.  4144 is also claimed to have replaced 3100 when that loco was withdrawn in May 1957 in Hodges/Davies, and no photo of it predating that appears in the books; your website and RailUK back this up. 

 

I am not convinced that 4145 ever went to Tondu as an allocation, nor that 4144 was there prior to May 1957, but one of those facts is possibly correct.  AFAI can tell, there was no 5101 allox TDU between 31/3/48 and 31/5/57, but I'm happy to be corrected on this.  I have bought a Hornby large prairie and renumbered it as 4144, which 'scrapes in' to my nominal 1948-58 period for the last 6 months of 1957; I have it in plain black unicycling livery.  4144 is listed in a 'snapshot' allocation for January 1950 in Hodges/Stuart. 

 

There is a vague plan to cobble up some sort of 3100 for Cwmdimbath one day; the loco is in a photo at Abergwnyfi so is known to have penetrated the mountain fastnesses.  A cut'n'shut involving a Hornby 5202 body and an old Airfix prairie chassis could form the basis of it.

 

The Johnster is old, befuddled, and easily confused by things that don't make immedieate sense to him, which is most of them.  What I thought I knew often turns out to be what I didn't think I didn't know, which is not the same thing at all!  This leads to mistakes, some of which are harder to correct than others.

[D1001]

35 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

The Hodges/Davies books claim that 4144 was sent new to TDU in September 1946 along with 3100 to work the reinstated post war Porthcawl-Cardiff job.  3100 was valued for this due to the combination of no.4 boiler and 5'3" drivers enabling it to get away from the SWML stops smartly and keep out of the way of the faster traffic, a view confirmed to me by old firemen who were now drivers at Canton in the 70s.  4144 was supposed to be the backup loco, and used on general passenger work when 3100 was in service.  Rail UK, which seems to not display the information any more, claimed that 4145 came to TDU in September 1946, and was xfer, to Canton IIRC, 31/3/48.  4144 is also claimed to have replaced 3100 when that loco was withdrawn in May 1957 in Hodges/Davies, and no photo of it predating that appears in the books; your website and RailUK back this up. 

 

I am not convinced that 4145 ever went to Tondu as an allocation, nor that 4144 was there prior to May 1957, but one of those facts is possibly correct.  AFAI can tell, there was no 5101 allox TDU between 31/3/48 and 31/5/57, but I'm happy to be corrected on this.  I have bought a Hornby large prairie and renumbered it as 4144, which 'scrapes in' to my nominal 1948-58 period for the last 6 months of 1957; I have it in plain black unicycling livery.  4144 is listed in a 'snapshot' allocation for January 1950 in Hodges/Stuart. 

 

There is a vague plan to cobble up some sort of 3100 for Cwmdimbath one day; the loco is in a photo at Abergwnyfi so is known to have penetrated the mountain fastnesses.  A cut'n'shut involving a Hornby 5202 body and an old Airfix prairie chassis could form the basis of it.

 

The Johnster is old, befuddled, and easily confused by things that don't make immedieate sense to him, which is most of them.  What I thought I knew often turns out to be what I didn't think I didn't know, which is not the same thing at all!  This leads to mistakes, some of which are harder to correct than others.

 

I have had a look at "RAIL 254.99 - Register of monthly shed allocations of locomotive stock, 1945-46".

4144 indeed went new to Tondu, entering service ostensibly on 10th September 1946. It only stayed there until February 1947 though when it went to Severn Tunnel Junction. However, it returned in June 1957

4145 went to Tondu in August 1947 (coming from Ebbw Jct). It stayed there until moving to Cardiff in October 1948.