Preorder email

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, aureol40012 said:

“well, apart from making you look good, what is the purpose of you telling us you know then.....

 

As you are obviously taking a pop at me the reason I have said what I have is to steer it away from inaccurate information. I'm certainly not doing it to 'make me look good' so I await your apology.

 

If I am given information in confidence or on trust I'm not going to tell you just because you think I should.

[melmerby]

16 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

It probably wouldn't be illegal but it would be immoral and anti-competitive to choose who you allow to have stock and who not.

Unfortunately it's part and parcel of normal business

Some companies are very choosy who can sell their products.

[Tony Teague]

13 minutes ago, PMP said:

Not at all, Company A has no legal obligation to supply company B with stock. In the trade some people are excluded (legally) from being able to stock those companies products. If you were to start a model shop tomorrow, there’s no legal requirement for any supplier to provide you with stock, and it’s not anti competitive to do so.

 

Just now, melmerby said:

Unfortunately it's part and parcel of normal business

Some companies are very choosy who can sell their products.

 

I am sure that you are both right, so I guess that I'll just settle for 'immoral in my eyes' and potentially a bit short sighted, judging from the customer reaction as seen here.

[vaughan45]

I am sure the reasons for this are a private matter between the two parties involved. What hasn't been mentioned are the 'terms of trade' that are agreed between two companies when they agree to a contract. If either party feel these terms have been broken then either can pause or terminate the agreement which will have consequences for the end customer.  

 

Certainly when I was involved in the model retail trade some years ago, you placed your orders with the large manufacturers at the time models were announced (often at the beginning of the year or at the London Toy Fair), but there was no guarantee that you would get the quantity you ordered when the models were delivered. Additionally at that time a few suppliers had trade terms that contained clauses that were possibly illegal / immoral, such as requiring you to only sell their products at full retail price, a requirement which had been outlawed some  years before. However if you were reported for breaking the terms (by other retailers), your supplies and trading contract would stop without warning.

 

Trade relationships are invariably more complex than the retailer / modelling customer relationship.  I am not taking sides in this discussion as I have had a number of pre-orders cancelled today. I simply worked the keyboard and pre-ordered the items spread across several other retailers.

Edited May 19, 2021 by vaughan45

[Joseph_Pestell]

34 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

You are commenting on hearsay. And somehow I doubt that whatever Hornby is doing is illegal. They aren't market traders.

 

Don't count on it. Surprising how often people overlook the obvious. The more senior people are, the more common this is.

 

When you start studying Law, the first courses are about Contract. Why? Because it is just about the simplest.

 

Offer + Acceptance + Consideration = CONTRACT.

 

I did suggest a couple of weeks back that we really need to see Hornby's T&C's to have a full picture. There must be a retailer here who could post them anonymously.

 

But the T&Cs would normally be over-ruled by the law in respect of Unfair Contracts (1976?).

 

If a retailer has ordered x number of article X (Rxxxx) and Hornby has accepted that order, it should be delivered unless, for instance, a ship sinks on its way from China. In other cases, where stock is clearly available ( at other retailers or direct from Hornby), the retailers who have not had a delivery should be suing Hornby for loss of profits and damage to reputation. They might want to group together and pursue a joint action.

[mattkimster]

1 hour ago, amwells said:

Had an email today - only for a couple of generic coaches. 
 

interestingly, I’ve also been following up on my order for all of the Coronation coaches from another supplier - Jadlam. Despite selling out in lots of places, Jadlam still haven’t had any (and have not received an answer from Hornby as to why not). 
 

Fortunately (for me) I’ve cobbled a set from a couple of other retailers who still have them in stock. 

I'm in a similar boat with Jadlam and the Coronation coaches - I did manage to recieve two about 3 weeks ago, but am still waiting for the final one I had ordered to come in.

 

They have been very good at replying and giving some confidence that it'll be sorted - I'm sure it must be frustrating for them too. It's been due 'imminently' since late April, and (in my experience) they've always been fairly reliable, so I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it'll be resolved...

[Legend]

1 hour ago, col.stephens said:

Hornby Southern 6-Wheeled coaches cancelled by Hattons.

 

I am going to email Hornby asking what their game is.  Might I suggest everyone else does the same?

 

Terry

Might  be better sending to Simon Kohler as it seems the issue is Hornby 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

 If you are a regional or local trader - fine. If you want to order product in the 000's and sell primarily online, then that is where I think the squeeze is being made. Rails and Hattons have noticeably massively ramped up both secondhand sales and their own direct manufacturing to try and address this.

And so these companies forced down a route of commissioning and manufacturing themselves , thus further increasing competition . Really smart move Hornby .  

[Mick Bonwick]

I am so very pleased that I have Little Muddle to keep me entertained.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Mick Bonwick

[ruggedpeak]

I'm saving for the fire sale.

 

But let's be clear, whatever is going on here is not "illegal" under competition law. For lots of reasons such as Hornby and the model railway market and the impact on the public do not meet the criteria required, starting with the market being too small.

[CUCKOO LINE]

Seem to remember around early 1990s there was a bit of a showdown with some of the retailers that discounted ending some no longer with us. Not sure preorder was quite so prevalent then and not the diversification of own manufacturing/special commissions either

[Joseph_Pestell]

48 minutes ago, PMP said:

Not at all, Company A has no legal obligation to supply company B with stock. In the trade some people are excluded (legally) from being able to stock those companies products. If you were to start a model shop tomorrow, there’s no legal requirement for any supplier to provide you with stock, and it’s not anti competitive to do so.

 

It does when it has accepted an order.

[Robert Scott]

I had the first part of my pre-order with Hattons (about 14 items) cancelled in February. Today I had another 12 items cancelled. That now accounts for 100% of my Hornby pre-orders cancelled. Last year I had 2 items cancelled just at the time they became available, I decided to cancel the rest and place direct with Hornby.

 

Whilst I can understand that Hattons may not get their full allocation, I find that for every item to be cancelled in 2 hits very bewildering. Surely I can't be that unlucky. Incidentally I placed these orders on the day of announcement so I was hardly very late.

 

Personally I think something else is going on that they won't admit to.

[Dominion]

I just had all 10 Hornby pre-order locos cancelled, and all my rolling stock too. Almost all were ordered on the very first day of announcement.  

 

For international customers ordering from Hornby is prohibitively expensive. Not only is the raw price higher, but the postage is 3 times higher than from a regular shop, and they ship in a way that causes extra tax collections here than normal.

All told it is a 60 pounds more expensive than from a proper retailer for one loco. SIXTY pounds ! That is a huge amount of wasted money that does not even stay within the model business.

 

This is supposed to be a fun hobby, a relaxing pastime.  This situation is causing a lot of their customers I suspect a lot of unnecessary angst.  For all those in a similar situation I empathize.

If anyone has Simon Kohler's email address I would love to know it.

Tom

[Bernard Lamb]

43 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Unfortunately it's part and parcel of normal business

Some companies are very choosy who can sell their products.

Or as one company that I dealt with liked to say "We have a perception of our customers".

If you can make a good living selling to a select share of the market then why bother with any one else.

Unfortunately trying to change the method after many years does not go down too well with a large percentage of middlemen and end users.  Will the loss of goodwill eventually counteract the improved short term profit? I for one hope so.

Bernard

[PMP]

16 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It does when it has accepted an order.

It’s nowhere near as simple as that, from my past practical commercial contract experience of being a sole supplier of aircraft spares. 
 

Except on the Internet, then it’s simple, obvs!

[Zunnan]

I must say I most enjoyed the conversation with my local shop when they had to tell me that my pre-ordered Coronation Scot coaches weren’t going to be arriving because their entire order has been canned. It’s not very nice for them when it’s literally the day they’re due in your hands, only to have to tell your customers ‘sorry, we’re not getting any, but they’re still available on Hornbys website’.

 

I’m sorry too. I’m not playing that game, so I spent that money in the shop on non-Hornby products they had on the shelves.

[Andy Hayter]

39 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It does when it has accepted an order.

 

The standard clause for this sort of situation will be found deep in the T&Cs and will read something like:

 

Our contract to supply will be concluded at the point of shipment of a confirmed [ by us] quantity to you our customer. 

 

In other words you will only get what we decide we can or want to supply you and there is no come back.

[ruggedpeak]

5 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

The standard clause for this sort of situation will be found deep in the T&Cs and will read something like:

 

Our contract to supply will be concluded at the point of shipment of a confirmed [ by us] quantity to you our customer. 

 

In other words you will only get what we decide we can or want to supply you and there is no come back.

Now that's contract law. No supplier allows an order to be created until shipment or allocation. Unless it is a custom/specialist order.

[Dominion]

I see Amazon UK is selling Thane of Fife for 134-135 pounds. Earlier in this thread some people had their Thane of Fife Preorders cancelled at Hattons.  That seems like a poor distribution strategy to me. Tom

Edited May 19, 2021 by Dominion
Typo

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It does when it has accepted an order.

That would depend entirely on the terms of trade. I'm pretty sure those will include a fairly standard clause about supply not being guaranteed. 

[Markwj]

If there is any truth in the tier system, how do you get allocated to a tier? Hattons must be a huge spender with Hornby so I can’t imagine they would be in a low tier and by insinuation on bad terms?

 

 

[MrTea]

If this is a ploy by Hornby purely to increase the ratings for the upcoming TV series then I doff my cap to them.
 

This definitely beats the 66s and ‘Terriergate’ in terms of intrigue. 

 

I can imagine it’s incredibly frustrating if you’ve placed orders in good faith only to have them dumped at the last minute though. 
 

 

[Andy Hayter]

32 minutes ago, Markwj said:

If there is any truth in the tier system, how do you get allocated to a tier? Hattons must be a huge spender with Hornby so I can’t imagine they would be in a low tier and by insinuation on bad terms?

 

 

Except that by going and commissioning models directly from China, Hattons have set themselves up as a direct competitor to Hornby, who do the same thing.

[CUCKOO LINE]

and if Hornby sell all their production via other retailers/online sales etc do they care anyway.