Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, john new said:

You ask why are they doing it?

 

I wasn't, I agree with you and Oldudders, but admiles didn't seem to get it so I was simply asking him what his explanation was...  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hobby

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

David Speigelhalter writing about the AZ vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links
 

Funnily enough I filmed an interview with him a few years ago for a documentary we made.

The name sounds familiar - is he the one who appears on More or Less quite often?

[Hobby]

45 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

I suspect that like the UK,  many of the countries suspending the rollout issued emergency use permission rather than have the luxury of completing their usual approval processes in which case they would be quick to jump at any perceived issue. The countries to look to for a more measured response would be those who had the time  to go through a more rigorous process and see how they react - Japan, Sth Korea, Australia etc.

 

We covered this many pages ago, and on the other thread before it was locked! Research into Covid vaccines have been around for as long as Covid has, the scientists used previous research so it was much quicker than for a new disease, also more people were pushed into the research. They are not allowed to "short cut" the approval process as you call it. Here's a previously posted link that answers your questions... There's more about there if you do a search, and other links on this and the other thread...

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/pharmacy/news/2020/dec/opinion-covid-19-vaccines-are-they-safe-or-have-they-been-rushed#:~:text=It's certainly true that the,due to urgent clinical need.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-02/covid-was-pfizers-vaccine-rushed-can-we-be-certain-its-safe-our-statistician-answers-your-questions

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hobby

[Reorte]

11 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I wasn't, I agree with you and Oldudders, but the troll didn't seem to get it so I was simply asking him what his explanation was...  

We should be careful in labelling people trolls, since that means someone deliberately out to get a rise. Whilst I disagree very strongly with his assessment of the situation I see no reason to assume trolling.

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, admiles said:

 

And rightly so if there are any doubts as to it's safety. I'd trust European medical expertise over UK political bluster anytime!

 

The fact is quite the opposite as the European medical agency has clearly stated that the Oxford vaccine is completely safe, the blood clot incidences are lower than what you would expect naturally within a population and if I have understood their statement there is no compounds in the vaccine that causes blood clots

 

However it is now being reported by the European media it is being seen as yet another bad decision made over the covid roll out.

 

Unlike you I have listened to both the UK and European medical regulators who unequivocally both agree its as safe as it can be.  Please keep to the facts not politics

 

I have had an intermittent pain in my right arm since I was vaccinated, was it the jab I had in my left arm that caused it, I think not

[Hobby]

@Reorte Ignoring scientific and medical evidence and asking questions that have been answered by previous posts and links doesn't strike me as conducting a logical discussion. OK perhaps he's not, but that's the way his posts come over. I'd rather not fall out over it so I'll just leave it as that is my view of him, but you are quite entitled to disagree, I've changed my post for the sake of harmony!

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hobby
Spelling!

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Right ok, got you.  I also was basing my comments on experiences of my family in Germany (Bavaria mainly) and work colleagues in a few other EU countries. These are counter to the picture put across by UK tabloids that the EU countries aren't vaccinating it's populations. Hence my comment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The EU is being very open in listing how many vaccinations are taking place on a daily basis, these are facts, another fact is that may European politicians are either apologising for an extremely poor response to both the vaccine procurement and rollout,

 

Its not Just the EU's procurement problem, but many of the member states roll out plans, which have been slow to get going. Sadly lots of ordinary people see the what's happening in the UK with the vaccine rollout and reducing infection and death rates, asking why has their own response been so poor, and the UK's so good

 

Many of  these countries are facing higher restrictions, increasing infection and death rates. Some are even having to boost their supplies by buying vaccines from alternative sources.

 

On the other hand, in the trials one was suspended for a few days after a death which after investigation was proved unrelated

 

But blood clots are very common and to be expected in a normal population, it goes to say many who are vaccinated will at some time develop blood clots. Lets face it, its a natural thing blood does!!!

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

There are no doubts about the vaccine in most scientific minds. This is political. Many millions of Brits have been given AZ, including my wife. No reports of blood clots. I'd trust British scientists and statisticians over EU politicians anytime! 

 

We have had a few (under 40 comes to mind) about equal between DVT and Thrombotic (blood clot in the lungs) When I had my PE several years ago, I was given a clot buster drug in A&E (one of the early ones), out of hospital in a week and back at work in 4 weeks, My sister who was not given the clot buster was in hospital for weeks and months convalescing. Its a very common illness

[Reorte]

26 minutes ago, Hobby said:

@Reorte Ignoring scientific and medical evidence and asking questions that have been answered by previous posts and links doesn't strike me as conducting a logical discussion. OK perhaps he's not, but that's the way his posts come over. I'd rather not fall out over it so I'll just leave it as that is my view of him, but you are quite entitled to disagree, I've changed my post for the sake of harmony!

 

I'm perhaps a bit sensitive on this because there are various subjects I know I'll be utterly at odds with a large proportion of this forum myself, and elsewhere I've been called a troll for not agreeing with the common line. Yes, it seems like political opinion swaying what's interpreted as relevant fact but that's a very common human trait, and people are often pretty poor at recognising a fact is worthless without subjective opinion (even though I personally think this goes well beyond that)., but that's people for you.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, monkeysarefun said:

Has Italy  suspended the rollout too? If so can we have our order that they blocked?

Yes. No.

 

Next question?

[monkeysarefun]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

We covered this many pages ago, and on the other thread before it was locked! Research into Covid vaccines have been around for as long as Covid has, the scientists used previous research so it was much quicker than for a new disease, also more people were pushed into the research. They are not allowed to "short cut" the approval process as you call it. Here's a previously posted link that answers your questions... There's more about there if you do a search, and other links on this and the other thread...

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/pharmacy/news/2020/dec/opinion-covid-19-vaccines-are-they-safe-or-have-they-been-rushed#:~:text=It's certainly true that the,due to urgent clinical need.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-02/covid-was-pfizers-vaccine-rushed-can-we-be-certain-its-safe-our-statistician-answers-your-questions

 

 

I'm not sure I even mentioned research? 

 

I was talking about permission to use, or authorisation. 

 

Usually, the UK would wait for the European Medicines Agency to approve a vaccine before looking to distribute it, but in an emergency EU countries are allowed to use their own regulator to issue temporary authorisation. In October the UK government made changes to the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 to allow the MHRA to grant temporary authorisation of a covid-19 vaccine without needing to wait for the EMA.

 

A temporary use authorisation is valid for one year only and requires the pharmaceutical companies to complete specific obligations, such as ongoing or new studies.

 

I wasn't implying any shortcuts were made regarding research, just the usual bureaucratic and administrative processes to get a vaccine approved were not followed due to the critical need and was asking if this was also  true of the countries that have suspended the AZ rollout.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[monkeysarefun]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

But blood clots are very common and to be expected in a normal population, it goes to say many who are vaccinated will at some time develop blood clots. Lets face it, its a natural thing blood does!!!

 

 

Now this will all probably  turn out to be nothing, on Thursday the EMA   will most likely declare it safe  and the rollouts will recommence. However, this "its just blood clots and there are less of them than in the unvaccinated population" argument that the UK media is pushing is not entirely correct.

 

The issue is that although rare,  the blood clots are occurring in younger people than occur in the unvaccinated population, and secondly that the platelet count is lower than would be expected in a typical blood clot sufferer.

 

As I posted before, a Florida doctor died from a blood clotting issue after getting the Pfizer vaccine. That alone  didn't necessarily point to a potential issue, as this  AZ clotting issue  doesn't but the aggregation of these kind of events will help to indicate a possible  trend.

 

Even if there is a trend, the current  risk of blood clots outweighing the positive effects the AZ vaccine is having on countries that are seeing high COVID numbers is a non argument. 

 

 

 

 

[Hobby]

35 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

I'm not sure I even mentioned research? 

 

I was talking about permission to use, or authorisation. 

 

You didn't but in this case there is a lot of overlap and I felt it important to clarify the background in view of what is being discussed.

 

12 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Now this will all probably  turn out to be nothing, on Thursday the EMA   will most likely declare it safe

 

Interestingly they still do, despite their investigations they have not changed their views and still recomend it for use... Note the bold type in this link:

 

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events

 

They'll have a lot of egg on their face if they do an about turn tomorrow.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hobby

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

The issue is that although rare,  the blood clots are occurring in younger people than occur in the unvaccinated population, and secondly that the platelet count is lower than would be expected in a typical blood clot sufferer.

 

Is there a source reference for this age/platelet element?

[Hobby]

37 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

I wasn't implying any shortcuts were made regarding research, just the usual bureaucratic and administrative processes to get a vaccine approved were not followed due to the critical need and was asking if this was also  true of the countries that have suspended the AZ rollout.

 

An interesting point, my understanding is that the process was speeded up rather than things not being followed. Something we were able to do as a stand alone country but the EU countries couldn't match. I suspect the USA and probably other countries such as Russia followed a similar route.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

I'm perhaps a bit sensitive on this because there are various subjects I know I'll be utterly at odds with a large proportion of this forum myself, and elsewhere I've been called a troll for not agreeing with the common line. Yes, it seems like political opinion swaying what's interpreted as relevant fact but that's a very common human trait, and people are often pretty poor at recognising a fact is worthless without subjective opinion (even though I personally think this goes well beyond that)., but that's people for you.

 

There are some folk who when they are loosing an argument, just revert to calling someone a calling a Troll. Just because you disagree with someone does not make you a troll, however if you move to other unrelated topics just to disagree with someone, then you are.

 

Not a problem not agreeing with someone,  providing you are not rude or there are sound grounds to disagree. But when someone makes an inaccurate sweeping statement, just be prepared for the replies

[monkeysarefun]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Is there a source reference for this age/platelet element?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-denmark/dane-who-died-from-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-shot-had-unusual-symptoms-agency-says-idUSKBN2B70TE

[hayfield]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Is there a source reference for this age/platelet element?

 

I think I saw it mentioned with regard to the Norwegians, but not too much of an explanation of its relevance  

[monkeysarefun]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

An interesting point, my understanding is that the process was speeded up rather than things not being followed. Something we were able to do as a stand alone country but the EU countries couldn't match. I suspect the USA and probably other countries such as Russia followed a similar route.

 

 

The US is probably a special case given the then  presidents habit of leaning on and publicly shaming or threatening individuals and organisations that didn't do his bidding - in that case making "Operation Warp speed" happen.

 

Russia - who can ever know!

[monkeysarefun]

The Pfizer case - Florida doctor dies of rare blood clotting disease after getting vaccine.  Does it indicate a trend with COVID vaccines, or just a coincidence...?

 

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politics/us-investigating-doctors-death-after-receiving-pfizer-vaccine-938433.html

[Hobby]

I think the Press and some Politicians need to calm down a bit, all deaths following a vaccine jab (of whatever the vaccine) are investigated. But until the findings of that investigation are published nothing is proven. There have been tens of millions of vaccine jabs made of both the major vaccines and only a very few deaths, none of which have so far been linked directly to the jab. On the other hand, based just on figures in the UK the vaccines have probably reduced the death rate by hundreds. So does one (possible) death count more than the hundreds saved?!

[Taz]

31 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

An interesting point, my understanding is that the process was speeded up rather than things not being followed. Something we were able to do as a stand alone country but the EU countries couldn't match. I suspect the USA and probably other countries such as Russia followed a similar route.

Not strictly true. Any EU country could have chosen to go it alone like we did if they wished.

But they chose to pool their efforts under the EU banner.

 

Now, if they are regretting that decision is another question altogether....

[monkeysarefun]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I think the Press and some Politicians need to calm down a bit, all deaths following a vaccine jab (of whatever the vaccine) are investigated. But until the findings of that investigation are published nothing is proven. There have been tens of millions of vaccine jabs made of both the major vaccines and only a very few deaths, none of which have so far been linked directly to the jab. On the other hand, based just on figures in the UK the vaccines have probably reduced the death rate by hundreds. So does one (possible) death count more than the hundreds saved?!

 

I can't think of a previous mass-vaccination project on this scale - ideally everyone in the world in the shortest time possible.  I guess given that the risk if there is an unseen side effect no matter how rare are mind blowing given the number of people intended to be vaccinated , so its understandable and laudable that any perceived issue no matter how seemingly small or rare is highlighted  and investigated . 

 

Manufactured Nationalistic media outrage and  finger wagging miss the point.

 

But as you say, there would have to be a hugely dangerous common side effect to outweigh the benefits of the vaccines.

Edited March 16, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[Andy Hayter]

35 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

An interesting point, my understanding is that the process was speeded up rather than things not being followed. Something we were able to do as a stand alone country but the EU countries couldn't match. I suspect the USA and probably other countries such as Russia followed a similar route.

 

Just to clarify:  when the UK decided to bypass the EMA and make its own assessments and authorisations, it was still under EU rules as part and parcel of the Transition Agreement.  It was perfectly within its rights to do so - as could any or every other EU country.  They chose not to do so at that time, although some are now using those freedoms to purchase and use vaccines not yet approved by the EMA - as is their right under the EU rules.

[Hobby]

6 minutes ago, Taz said:

Not strictly true. Any EU country could have chosen to go it alone like we did if they wished.

 

 

Now, if they are regretting that decision is another question altogether....

 

And some have already broken ranks... 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hobby