Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[APOLLO]

I  worked for National Grid in their Bolton office for eight years up to retirement. Quite a mix of cultures in that town. The Indians I worked with were well educated and quite pleasant to work with. Some of "the others" were not quite the same. Parts of the town are noticeably culturally / religion  divided also. Enough said.

 

The Indian variant (Like the British / Kent strain) does not necessarily mean these variants originated in India or Britain.

 

Very sad news what is going on in India though, and yes the majority of Indians in India are a bit different (education wise) than Indians in Bolton.

 

If local / extended lockdowns etc are required then so be it - UNTILL we are all vaccinated by year end, then we must fully open up and learn to live with covid - or it's game over for the UK as we know it.

 

Brit15

[Bernard Lamb]

23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The Bolton issue seems to involve, inter alia, ethnic communities, hence leaflets in Hindi and Gujarati. If people speak and read no English, much of the accumulated wisdom we now have is simply unknown to them. We know there is a wariness of officialdom among some ethnic groups, not without cause, and being registered as vaccinated is seen as being dragged into 'the system' and thus under surveillance. That some ethnicities are more vulnerable to the virus than typical Caucasians makes this all the worse. 

 

Community leaders will have a tough time breaking down these barriers. 

You put it very delicately Ian.

I only saw some of these reports recently, but I was aware of the background before from colleagues who worked in that part of the world.

As you say it does make things difficult for community leaders.

Search for hepatitis vaccination and bin laden to learn more.

Bernard

[hayfield]

32 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The Bolton issue seems to involve, inter alia, ethnic communities, hence leaflets in Hindi and Gujarati. If people speak and read no English, much of the accumulated wisdom we now have is simply unknown to them. We know there is a wariness of officialdom among some ethnic groups, not without cause, and being registered as vaccinated is seen as being dragged into 'the system' and thus under surveillance. That some ethnicities are more vulnerable to the virus than typical Caucasians makes this all the worse. 

 

Community leaders will have a tough time breaking down these barriers. 

 

This was certainly the case until a few months ago, however watching and listening to the local London news channels this is changing dramatically, vaccinations are still down a bit in some ethnic groups but levels are now at the levels which were expected when first planned, however the take up in all groups is far greater than expected, as you say local influencers have been working very hard and are thankfully making a difference. As you say those at greatest risk are at greatest need for both the vaccine and social protection, age, health and ethnicity all are factors 

 

As for languages, most healthcare and council services are in multi language, plus they have dedicated TV and radio stations, so language should not be so much of an issue. But non compliance is equally as rife in all other areas of society. As usual younger people seem to think they are indestructible and can be equally or worse in being noncompliant, then certain groups interpret the rules differently etc 

 

Attitudes in the south are seemingly a bit different from the North, I don't know why. Or is it we just got the virus first and they are lagging behind

 

But then "Euronews" reported a survey in Europe which 27% of Europeans say they are Vaccine sceptics and unlikely to have a vaccine, given this our ethnic groups are far better than these Europeans !!!

 

22 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Subtly put, Ian! My brother lives in one of the affected area and confirms the above, with the rider that their way of living (all ages in the same house (and often a small one at that)) affects things even more.

 

As for John's comments on flying, many people still need to travel for business, same is my daughter's other half had to travel all over the UK during lockdown, as did I. However what they should have done is shut flights down straight away from India, not allowed them the three days to get back which is I recon how this variant got in in the numbers it has.

 

One thing to note though is whilst they are seeing increased cases nothing is yet being said about deaths which may be a good thing. Perhaps when we start to see the increase in deaths (if we do) they may be able to tell us who has been vaccinated and who hasn't.

 

My wife's parents now live in a 3 generational family (bought a large house with her sisters family) so not just ethnic. We have rarely seen our daughter and her husband and our granddaughters even though we all live within 6 or 7 miles of each other. My daughter is a key worker so kept away, likewise we have done the same with my wife's parents and my sister.

Harry Dunn said  "rules are for the guidance of wise men and obedience of fools" . In this pandemic the wise obey the rules, the fools ignore them

 

As for international air travel, nonessential travel is banned. So why are we still facilitating this ?

 

It has been reported that people who have been fully vaccinated are quite safe meeting indoors with each other, but the rules are for everyone to obey, vaccinated or not

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

As for international air travel, nonessential travel is banned. So why are we still facilitating this ?

 

Because as I said not all travel is for pleasure, not all business can be done by zoom.

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Because as I said not all travel is for pleasure, not all business can be done by zoom.

 

Surely this falls into essential travel then.

 

Many visits are seemingly to see family, or attend weddings etc, many in this country had to either cancel their weddings or restrict those present, we watched our granddaughter get married on zoom, as did many others. The rule is the same for everybody, and as I said all those on non essential visits should be sent back, especially from red zones

[Hobby]

You can still do non essential as long as you isolate when you return. Personally I can't see any harm in that as long as it's done correctly. At first the Gov relied on people obeying the rules, now they've realised that doesn't work (I know, we told you so!!) and are enforcing it with hotel stays on return. My only issue with India is that we delayed 3 days before we enforced it, we shouldn't have done, it should have been as soon as the decision to red list the country was made. People were allowed back in without any tests and the current spread is as a direct result. I'm not sure if they've proposed to change that or not, no doubt we'll see the next time it happens.

 

With regard to families in one house, yes there are white families that do it, but it's much more prevalent in the ethnic communities.

[3rd Rail Exile]

4 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Surely this falls into essential travel then.

 

Many visits are seemingly to see family, or attend weddings etc, many in this country had to either cancel their weddings or restrict those present, we watched our granddaughter get married on zoom, as did many others. The rule is the same for everybody, and as I said all those on non essential visits should be sent back, especially from red zones

 

Has the Government defined "essential"?  Some cultures seem to regard attendance at family "life events" as absolutely vital, pandemic or not.  Mere governments do not take precedence over the will of the deity...

 

Personally, I agree with what you are saying, but a lot of people see things differently.  

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

You can still do non essential as long as you isolate when you return. Personally I can't see any harm in that as long as it's done correctly. At first the Gov relied on people obeying the rules, now they've realised that doesn't work (I know, we told you so!!) and are enforcing it with hotel stays on return. My only issue with India is that we delayed 3 days before we enforced it, we shouldn't have done, it should have been as soon as the decision to red list the country was made. People were allowed back in without any tests and the current spread is as a direct result. I'm not sure if they've proposed to change that or not, no doubt we'll see the next time it happens.

 

With regard to families in one house, yes there are white families that do it, but it's much more prevalent in the ethnic communities.

 

I thought non essential travel is banned until Monday ?  Plus its not just India, many European countries whilst no where as bad still have high active infection rates

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Has the Government defined "essential"?  Some cultures seem to regard attendance at family "life events" as absolutely vital, pandemic or not.  Mere governments do not take precedence over the will of the deity...

 

Personally, I agree with what you are saying, but a lot of people see things differently.  

 

I think within the calculations there is an allowance for noncompliance, no issues with people leaving, but we should have and be now doing more to protect ourselves.  

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, Hobby said:

My only issue with India is that we delayed 3 days before we enforced it, we shouldn't have done, it should have been as soon as the decision to red list the country was made. People were allowed back in without any tests and the current spread is as a direct result.

 

Sadly, it was longer than that. The risk was known with Pakistan and Bangladesh placed on the red list at least a week before India and with shorter notice - but not the big country in between that trade talks were scheduled with.  

[hayfield]

10 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Sadly, it was longer than that. The risk was known with Pakistan and Bangladesh placed on the red list at least a week before India and with shorter notice - but not the big country in between that trade talks were scheduled with.  

 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, certainly we were not the first to react, but then other countries in Europe reacted after us, plus rightly or wrongly the experts were waiting for results from various tests. Every decision has its detractors

 

Look at haw some criticized the European countries who suspended the AZ vaccine early, then we had a toing and throwing, finally a mishmash of how various nations allow its use

 

The good news is certainly the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work on this variant and its a safe bet the AZ will be nearly as good

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing,

 

Please don't assume I've only taken this position as a retrospective view - it was evident to me, and I'm sure many others, at the time as soon as it was stated that Pakistan and Bangladesh would be placed on the red list that a gaping hole had been left.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 minutes ago, Hobby said:

You can still do non essential as long as you isolate when you return. Personally I can't see any harm in that as long as it's done correctly. At first the Gov relied on people obeying the rules, now they've realised that doesn't work (I know, we told you so!!) and are enforcing it with hotel stays on return. My only issue with India is that we delayed 3 days before we enforced it, we shouldn't have done, it should have been as soon as the decision to red list the country was made. People were allowed back in without any tests and the current spread is as a direct result. I'm not sure if they've proposed to change that or not, no doubt we'll see the next time it happens.

 

With regard to families in one house, yes there are white families that do it, but it's much more prevalent in the ethnic communities.

 

Nearly all restrictions have been made with several days' notice. I don't understand this at all. It allows people to spread it around quickly while they still can, making the problem worse.

I went running on the last night before lockdown 1 & my route took me past a pub. It was absolutely rammed with people making the problem even worse than it would have been. I really didn't understand their mentality.

 

Regarding quarantining after international travel, I have no sympathy with anyone complaining that "they should have been given notice before being stranded".  There cannot be many who are unaware of a worldwide problem so it is sensible that any country can be placed on a red list at short notice & this should a risk which is accepted when travelling. The respective governments are reacting to figures anyway, so if you keep a eye on those, you can react before the government has a chance to (probably cancel the trip completely).

[Nick C]

12 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Nearly all restrictions have been made with several days' notice. I don't understand this at all. It allows people to spread it around quickly while they still can, making the problem worse.

I went running on the last night before lockdown 1 & my route took me past a pub. It was absolutely rammed with people making the problem even worse than it would have been. I really didn't understand their mentality.

 

Regarding quarantining after international travel, I have no sympathy with anyone complaining that "they should have been given notice before being stranded".  There cannot be many who are unaware of a worldwide problem so it is sensible that any country can be placed on a red list at short notice & this should a risk which is accepted when travelling. The respective governments are reacting to figures anyway, so if you keep a eye on those, you can react before the government has a chance to (probably cancel the trip completely).

Agreed - all travel at the moment should be made on the assumption that you may have to quarantine on return, and if you can't afford that, you shouldn't go. 

[alastairq]

On 13/05/2021 at 10:59, john new said:

Everyone gets born and I guess is when you get the UK NHS number allocated;

 

Allocated at birth?  Perhaps?

But in the days where medical records were paper, and sometimes kept [and lost?] at some almost random GP surgery, I'm not so sure.

I have no idea what number I was issued at birth.  [What do they do if someone is born outside the UK?]

Needless to say, my first 'known' record of a NHS number [associated with one's 'Medical Certificate?' }, was issued to me at age 16, whilst attending a college, a long way from my parental address. This consisted of 4 letters and three numbers [or, vice versa, since the last letter could have been a zero instead of an 'O'?}  I remembered this number,[like some remember their payroll numbers, or Army numbers?] along with my NI number.

 

Much later on in life, when asked for the NHS number, I would quote the combination issued to me at age 16. [It was needed for statutory paperwork at the time]

As time passed, I started getting blank looks from whoever required my number, as it 'no longer computed'...

Indeed, my personal medical records are mysteriously blank for the first 20-odd years of my life!  {IE, Not mentioned on my current records, available online for a small fee?}

 

I now have yet another NHS number, which differs from the one issued in the 1990's!

 

Luckily my NI number [issued at age 16!]  is still the same!

But, as my old GP [now retired, bless him] noted, from my medical records he would have to take my word for it that I had been born!

 

Oh, and still testing negative, despite the best efforts of the rest of the world!  

[Metr0Land]

2 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 

Allocated at birth?  Perhaps?

But in the days where medical records were paper, and sometimes kept [and lost?] at some almost random GP surgery, I'm not so sure.

I have no idea what number I was issued at birth.

 

I was born in 1948 shortly after the start of NHS.  My short-form birth certificate has my original NHS number MBDF371 which I always used to remember for some reason in case it were needed.  Trouble was in the early 2000's some bright spark decided we all needed 9-number numbers to feed the insatiable appetite of the NHS computer but couldn't be bothered to tell us all it had changed.  And no, I can't remember what the current one is.....

[alastairq]

Thanks for that supporting post...I wasn't sure if I'd gone gaa-gaa, or completely gaa-gaa?

 

My number has in fact changed several times in my lifetime.  The number allocated when I suffered a severe injury in the early 1980's, not being the one issued to me in the 1990's, or, the one issued more recently.

 

 

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Very sad news what is going on in India though, and yes the majority of Indians in India are a bit different (education wise) than Indians in Bolton.

 

It is wrong to blame lack of education for the chronic issues they are suffering in India.

 

A government who did not place orders for vaccines despite being a massive pharma producer, a government holding mass election rallies whilst knowing there was a massive likelihood of contagion, a collapse in healthcare provision with citizens having to find their own oxygen supplies and fight for space in hospitals.  And who is responsible for the massive gap between rich and poor in India and for not addressing many of the other inequalities suffered there.

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Please don't assume I've only taken this position as a retrospective view - it was evident to me, and I'm sure many others, at the time as soon as it was stated that Pakistan and Bangladesh would be placed on the red list that a gaping hole had been left.

 

These decisions are almost impossible to make and keep everyone happy. I do agree we should have not only acted sooner but been a lot more stricter on who was let back in and what they MUST do with isolation etc.

 

To a certain extent the Genie is now out of the bottle, we should not only increase both testing and vaccinations in the affected areas, but insist on strict compliance to the rules. The harder we are at the beginning the lower the overall effects will be 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Agreed - all travel at the moment should be made on the assumption that you may have to quarantine on return, and if you can't afford that, you shouldn't go. 

 

 

Totally agree with you, especially for those who are not visiting relatives,

 

Buyer beware, if the circumstances alter you may have to cut short your holiday, extend your stay and or be prepared to quarantine upon your return

[eastglosmog]

Just back from getting my 2nd jab.  No problems, very slick operation, in and out in 10min, then wait 15min in car park.

[boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

but not the big country in between that trade talks were scheduled with.  

Odd that eh? 

[monkeysarefun]

11 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Yesterday 70 of the 140 passengers booked on a repatriation flight from India to Australia were removed before the flight  for testing positive or being close contacts of those.

 

Not sure how the quote from Pete the elaner  got attached to this!

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[Hobby]

9 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

Yesterday 70 of the 140 passengers booked on a repatriation flight from India to Australia were removed before the flight  for testing positive or being close contacts of those.

 

And after mixing with the rest of the people on the flight in the waiting area the rest were allowed to travel...

Edited May 15, 2021 by Hobby

[hayfield]

I see in the papers there are now murmurs asking why India were not on the red list earlier and why have a 4 day warning on moving it into the red list ?

 

But the plane truth is, at that time every person returning from India should have been isolating upon their return. The problem we are now facing has been caused by travellers knowingly breaking the rules for re-entry into this country. 

 

Perhaps we should be much firmer on who and under what circumstances we allow people back into this country. Australia has shown how to protect their country with a strong stance on re-entering  their country. Certainly on long distance travel from what is called covid hotspots is something we could copy