Midland and South Western Junction Railway (M&SWJR)

[billbedford]

On 09/06/2022 at 19:28, daifly said:

I use the same system too but it's still Japanese! 

Dave

 

Any examples of how dates were traditionally written in Japan?

[daifly]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

Any examples of how dates were traditionally written in Japan?

See here!

https://www.kanpai-japan.com/learn-japanese/how-to-write-the-date-in-japanese#part-3

Dave

[MarcD]

On 10/04/2021 at 20:52, MarcD said:

I have only just discovered this line, having been asked by a customer to make some 7mm stock for it.  I took delivery of Vol.2 on Wednesday with in 48 hours I ordered vol.1 and I have been trying to lay my hands on vol.3.

If anyone's interested the first kit will be a Brake van. it will be a full kit in 7mm and a 3D printed body in other scales. 

 

Marc 

The kit is now also available in 4mm now. I'm just painting the prototype and As I don't have a copy of Vol3 of the wildswan book can anyone tell me what the livery should be? It might end up being painted GWR if I'm not careful!

 

Marc

[Compound2632]

I find I have just missed Pendon's M&SWJR Day. It clashed with family commitments anyway. however they do say that trains will be running on the M&SWJR line every open day henceforth.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Compound2632

[KeithMacdonald]

Just found on Flickr, a contribution from Robin Summerhill on the M&SWJR timetable near the end.

 

Quote

Throwing in the towel – Andover to Cheltenham - This scan shows the paltry train service that was on offer in the last couple of years in the up direction (Andover to Cheltenham), and also shows the Bristol Omnibus company timetable for their Swindon to Cheltenham service at much the same time (the railway timetable dates from Winter 1959/60 and the bus timetable from autumn 1963). It will be seen that there were only two trains a day that ran all the way between Andover and Swindon, with a further train running between Andover and Marlborough in the morning and Marlborough and Swindon in the evening, with an extra lunchtime one on Saturdays. North of Swindon only one train a day ran the full length of the line. A few other short-haul trains were provided such as between Swindon and Cricklade and Chiseldon and Swindon. The additional trains shown running between Andoversford and Cheltenham were actually coming from Kingham along the GWR line. This service was withdrawn in 1962.

 

 

[Compound2632]

Random M&SWJR question: the old Midland Railway carriages sold to the M&SWJR in the second decade of the 20th century are well-documented but is much known about earlier / other M&SWJR passenger stock? I am intrigued by the carriages seen standing in the carriage sidings at the north end of Cheltenham Midland Station in this c. 1903-7 photo of a down goods train:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 81643.]

 

These carriages have an overall appearance rather like that of Midland arc-roofed carriages of the 1880s/90s and I would have taken them to be such were it not that the carriage immediately above the engine's tender is quite unlike any Midland diagram. It appears to be a lavatory brake composite, with the brake compartment amidships. No Midland arc-roof brake carriages had duckets of the type seen here, with the exception of the 4-wheel passenger brake vans. In other photos, S&DJR carriages are seen in these sidings but S&DJR bogie carriages had a different three-centred roof profile, as seen in this c. 1906 photo of a down express, also at Cheltenham:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 81639.]

 

[BR traction instructor]

Accidentally discovered pictures of 08s on the M&SWJR (as requested earlier in this thread) on the ‘Swindon’s other railway’ website, within the Peter Timms collection listed on the sidebar.

 

The Cam Camwell DVDs include two steam hauled M&SWJR trains passing Romsey around 1952 as well.

 

BeRTIe

Edited October 26, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[KeithMacdonald]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Random M&SWJR question: the old Midland Railway carriages sold to the M&SWJR in the second decade of the 20th century are well-documented but is much known about earlier / other M&SWJR passenger stock?

 

Good question, let's hope someone knows the answer. Wikipedia mentions in passing how much the M&SWJR depended on the Midland Railway and its hand-me-downs.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway#Alliance_with_the_Midland_Railway

 

What became of then all after the GWR took charge? I can only recall mention of the M&SWJR locos, which the GWR moved to places like the Lambourn Branch.

e.g.

Quote

Ex-M&SWJ Railway 2-4-0 No. 1334, sporting its Great Western branding, waits by the buffer stops at Lambourn

and

Quote

Ex-MSWJR 2-4-0 (now GWR/BR no. 1335) nears Welford Park with its one-coach train. This photo was probably taken in the early 1950s.

 

Both quotes from here: https://www.lambournvalleyrailway.info/motivepower.html

 

Perhaps the GWR moved everything - "lock, stock and two smoking locos" ?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

What became of then all after the GWR took charge?

 

The ex-Midland carriages were withdrawn fairly quickly - they were by the grouping over 40 years old.

 

The GWR inherited the M&SWJR's Midland loans, which then of course became a debt to the LMS. But this wasn't at all uncommon - pretty much all four grouping companies ended up both owning shares in each other and holding loans from each other, I believe.

 

The only case were this became embarrasing, that I know of, was in the year before the grouping, when the North Eastern took over the Hull & Barnsley and the Midland said, right, we'll have our money back, thank-you!

[KeithMacdonald]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Random M&SWJR question: the old Midland Railway carriages sold to the M&SWJR in the second decade of the 20th century are well-documented but is much known about earlier / other M&SWJR passenger stock?

 

Another stray thought ... somewhere I've seen mention of some M&SWJR wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company. Is it possible they got some carriages from there as well?

[KeithMacdonald]

@Compound2632 - before finding the needle, first, we have to find the right haystack! 🙂

 

I just found this:

 

 

Which in turn mentions this: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr1.html

 

Which in turn says:

 

Quote

 

The fact that the M&SWJR took over certain Midland Railway carriages increases the scope for the kit-builder:  Some of the MR 43' bogie arc-roof carriages to Diagram 490 & 502 (a total of 16 and 4 respectively) went to the the M&SWJR in the period before WWI, and a few survived into GWR days. These coaches are made as kits by both 51L (4mm) and Slaters (7mm), but Diagram 490 can also be produced by kit-bashing the Ratio MR bogie arc-roof kits. On the latter issue, Richard Kelham has provided the following info: "None of the vehicles modelled by Ratio ever went to the M&SWJR/GWR, though the M&SWJR ex-MR D490 thirds can be modelled by reducing the number of compartments in the Ratio model from 8 to 7 (need underframe mods as well of course, including new bogies). Six of these survived long enough to carry GWR numbers, and presumably livery, though they had all gone by 1930. The M&SWJR also had some almost identical 3rds bought new in 1896–8. These were lit by electricity rather than gas, and most survived in service until the early 1930s."

 

 

Hope that helps!

[KeithMacdonald]

@Compound2632 - the Holy Grael reference book might be this?

 

Midland & South Western Junction Railway, Vol.3, Carriages & Wagons by Mike Barnsley (Wild Swan Publications)

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

@Compound2632 - the Holy Grael reference book might be this?

 

Midland & South Western Junction Railway, Vol.3, Carriages & Wagons by Mike Barnsley (Wild Swan Publications)

 

That looks to be the answer!

 

16 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Hope that helps!

 

I'm afraid I had already looked there - it discusses the ex-Midland carriages which, as I said, are well-documented, although I confess I had missed the mention of "almost identical 3rds bought new in 1896–8"; one of these electrically-lit thirds might be the carriage to the left of the brake compo as its roof seems to be devoid of the gas-lamp fittings one would expect to see on a Midland D490 at this date.

 

I have to confess that a bit more googling on my part has thrown some light on the brake compo. I found that Geoff Haynes had made a rather splendid model of it:

 

and also of an identical L&SWR carriage:

 

 

[Both images embedded links to Geoff Haynes' website.]

 

Roxey list an etched kit for a very similar 48 ft lavatory brake composite but with the high three-arc roof, stating that that design was an 1894 development of an earlier arc-roof design. Evidently one or more of those was sold to the M&SWJR. I expect Weddell's L&SWR carriage books give full details, while Mike Barnsley's book will no doubt recount how they came into M&SWJR hands.

 

In conclusion, there was no mystery, merely ignorance of the published literature on my part.

[KeithMacdonald]

Here's something else found on Flickr.  The caption says:

 

Quote

Trains passing at Marlborough. No 3684 is approaching with a train for Swindon Town. 20/04/1959

 

3684 isn't far from home, built in GWR Swindon in 1940, served until 1962.

31620 (4P 3F) is a Southern Railway U-Class Maunsell 2-6-0, based in Eastleigh at that time.

If 3684 is heading north from Marlborough to Swindon, 31620 must be heading south, presumably from Swindon Town at least.

A good location for anyone who wants to model a joint GWR/Southern operation?

 

[Compound2632]

The Us were ubiquitous on the M&SWJR in its final years - SR, LMR, and WR at Cheltenham... 

[BR traction instructor]

Just in case anyone hasn’t found them yet, the 1949 WTT pages for the M&SWJR are reproduced on the Michael Clemens railway website.

 

BeRTIe

Edited October 27, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[wagonman]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That looks to be the answer!

 

 

I'm afraid I had already looked there - it discusses the ex-Midland carriages which, as I said, are well-documented, although I confess I had missed the mention of "almost identical 3rds bought new in 1896–8"; one of these electrically-lit thirds might be the carriage to the left of the brake compo as its roof seems to be devoid of the gas-lamp fittings one would expect to see on a Midland D490 at this date.

 

I have to confess that a bit more googling on my part has thrown some light on the brake compo. I found that Geoff Haynes had made a rather splendid model of it:

 

and also of an identical L&SWR carriage:

 

 

 

MSWJR no.26 was a one-off – the first of the 'modern' designs built (from memory) by Birmingham RC&W in 1896 presumably copying the LSWR design. Buying gas-lit stock from the MR was a retrograde move for an all-electric line!

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That looks to be the answer!

 

Have you seen Mike Barnsley's page on "Swindon's Other Railway"?

Quote

As much as possible, it concentrates on the pre-grouping period.

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike.html

 

As usual, most pics emphasis the locos, but a few have better views of the carriages.

e.g.

Quote

Rebuilt ex-MSWJR 4-4-0, GWR No.1128, near Shurdington Fields with a down passenger

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike15.html

or

Quote

A busy time at the station, with the down freight train parked on the up line to allow the passenger train through

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike78.html

or

Quote

MSWJR 4-4-4T No.18 approaching Marlborough with a down passenger train in 1914

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike144.html

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

MSWJR no.26 was a one-off – the first of the 'modern' designs built (from memory) by Birmingham RC&W in 1896 presumably copying the LSWR design. Buying gas-lit stock from the MR was a retrograde move for an all-electric line!

 

The new stock bought c. 1896 obviously reflects Sam Fay's success in turning the company round. But the second-hand Midland carriages were cheap. Below is a table drawn up from my notes of second-hand stock sales minuted by the MR Carriage & Wagon Committee: 

 

 

Note the effect of the Great War on prices.

 

37 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Have you seen Mike Barnsley's page on "Swindon's Other Railway"?

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike.html

 

 

Thanks for pointing me to this. In this photo of a train leaving Cheltenham:

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike3.html

the lavatory brake composite that started me off is the leading carriage.

 

37 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

As usual, most pics emphasis the locos, but a few have better views of the carriages.

e.g.

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike15.html

 

 

Urgh! A Midland D502 43 ft third brake in GW livery! Don't do that to me!

 

37 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

or

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike78.html

 

The second carriage in that train looks to be an ex-Midland D490 43 ft third; the trailing carriage looks to also be ex-Midland, presumably a composite brake, but the first carriage is presumably an SM&AR original.

 

37 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

or

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike144.html

 

I think that's all ex-Midland stock, with a 40 ft compo brake leading, then two 43 ft thirds and probably a 45 ft compo brake.

 

Anyway, I've ordered the book - I found a second-hand copy at £20, which was a good deal better than some prices!

Edited October 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[KeithMacdonald]

Thanks to @Compound2632 for mentioning Cheltenham. I'd never thought of that as a M&SJR station, but it clearly paid a significant part in M&SJR traffic and activity.

Thanks to @BR traction instructor for mentioning Michael Clemens railway website and the timetables.

e.g.

Section 3 - Reading, Newbury, Westbury, Chippenham, Trowbridge, Castle Cary & Weymouth - From September 26th 1949.

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=611

One has to dig deep to find what's relevant to the M&SJR. It's the second of the three PDFs in the downloads menu: SECTION 3 FROM 26FEB49 B.pdf

Ignore the first 119 pages, that's all GWR/BR(WR) stuff.  Page 120 is the service we seek.

 

First train of the day is a Southampton Docks Freight, leaving at 04.10 and arriving Southampton 10.00, with notes:

N - to take water at Swindon Town and if possible avoid doing so at Ludgershall

L - stop if required to detach traffic (at Ludgershall)

Not exactly an express freight, would it have been stopping at each station to drop-off and pick-up?

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Followed by the earliest morning passenger train, 06.34 from Cirencester to Savernake (Low Level). Change there for GWR.

Then an 05.42 occassional freight (RR = runs when required).

A couple of passenger trains that leave Swindon Town and go no further than Chisledon. Perhaps we'll find them later in the Up Timetable, returning to Swindon Town?

The 08.45 Tidworth Passenger is a curiosity. Perhaps it was for workers at the Tidworth Barracks on that little branch line?

Not until 08.30 do we find the first "longer distance" passenger train - Swindon to Andover Junction.

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Thanks to @Compound2632 for mentioning Cheltenham. I'd never thought of that as a M&SJR station, but it clearly paid a significant part in M&SJR traffic and activity.

 

From the Midland point of view, the whole point of the M&SWJR was that it provided a route between the Midlands and the port of Southampton, a port that was rising in importance in the later 19th century. Although the M&SWR's access to Cheltenham was over the Great Western, once it got there, it used the Midland station both for passengers and goods, as far as I can see. I note that WTT page shows a start from Cheltenam High Street, even in 1949:

 

 

The M&SWJR engine shed was at High Street, along with exchange sidings, all alongside the Midland's goods station, there being no goods facilities at Lansdown.

 

I should think that, at least pre-grouping, most goods traffic would have been through, rather than to or from intermediate stations. On the passenger side, the Midland's summer 1903 timetable shows through a through carriage between Southampton and York (morning departures) and between Southampton and Sheffield / Leeds (afternoon departures). By 1911, this service to the north was reduced to Derby / Nottingham but, with the increased co-operation between the Midland and the LNWR from 1908, there was now a through carriage between Southampton and Manchester London Road - i.e. attached to a LNWR train at Birmingham New Street.

 

It was undoubtedly one of the biggest blunders of the grouping that the M&SWJR went to the GWR. If the argument against it going to the LMS was the lack of physical connection at Cheltenham, it ought at least to have gone to the Southern, as those ubiquitous Us showed in BR days!

Edited October 27, 2022 by Compound2632

[KeithMacdonald]

The next page (Page 122) is in the next PDF

SECTION 3 FROM 26FEB49 C.pdf

07.15 Westbury Freight, clearly a slow freight, Savernake at 09.52 to Ludgershall (military depot sidings)

12.25 Tidworth (again)

10.05 - Blimey! A passenger train that goes the full distance. Cheltenham to Southampton. Perhaps this is what the U-Class 31620 was pulling through Marlborough?

After that it must have been long lunches and siesta time for most of the station staff up & down the line.

 

[Miss Prism]

 

The M&SWJR 4-4-0 is GWR 1120, and the train is, I think, bound for Southampton. Could be the 10 05am, or whatever it was timed at in those days.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Later in the afternoon, by M&SWJR standards, it almost got busy!

At 2pm, another Cheltenham to Southampton service.

Another freight to Ludgershall, this time at 2.15 from Swindon.

A couple of trains to Andover Junction - one at 3.20pm from Cheltenham , and one at 6.40pm from Swindon Town.

Another Tidworth branch service.

What might have been on the "Mixed" service at 6.10pm from Marlbough? Milk?