1950's Birmingham New Street - turntable and other scratchbuilds in N gauge

[LNER4479]

2 minutes ago, Royal42 said:

That's a great photo' and thank you for finding and posting it.  I does appear that one can see the wheels and connecting rod, unless that is the top of a steel wall??

 

Mike

That's definitely a running plate and splashers above the driving wheels. My guess would be a Compound but I'm happy to be corrected on that one. The giveaway re the 'table is the dark shadow beneath, clearly (to me) indicating a 'girders below' configuration (hence the need for the well).

 

I'll have a further scout round for any further pictures. I model LMR, although I've never concentrated on the Birmingham area particularly, so you never know.

[Royal42]

The picture next to the one shown above gives a better view I think, as there isn't a loco on it.  It certainly looks like a well-type.   Thanks again for alerting me to the Britain from above site.

 

Mike

[LNER4479]

Incidentally, it's possible use the parts from the Dapol kit to make a 'girders below' table, thus:

 

Girders cut down in size - they're too tall as they are for a turntable pit.

 

And reduced in length. This is a scale 70ft table (ie 280mm long).

 

Didn't cost me very much - just the investment in man hours!

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Incidentally, it's possible use the parts from the Dapol kit to make a 'girders below' table, thus:

 

Girders cut down in size - they're too tall as they are for a turntable pit.

 

And reduced in length. This is a scale 70ft table (ie 280mm long).

 

Didn't cost me very much - just the investment in man hours!

 

Thank you for that - it's precisely what I intend doing !!!

 

John Isherwood.

[Compound2632]

I was hoping to find the answer in Richard Foster's books but didn't on a quick scan. Scaling off the OS 25" map, the New Street turntable was 50 ft diameter. That's big enough for a Compound; as can be seen in this photo, a Belpaire just fits, which is confirmation that it's 50 ft. The turntable is at the west end and on the Midland side which suggests it was primarily for the use of engines on the Midland route; when the Midland side of the station was built, most Midland north & west expresses still reversed at New Street rather than using the West Suburban line, plus, of course, there was the need for pilot engines to turn - 2P 4-4-0s still being on this duty into the 1950s. So the turntable only needed to be big enough to turn a 4-4-0. 

[Royal42]

8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Incidentally, it's possible use the parts from the Dapol kit to make a 'girders below' table, thus:

Girders cut down in size - they're too tall as they are for a turntable pit.

And reduced in length. This is a scale 70ft table (ie 280mm long).

Thanks, but I am working to N scale; however, the image of you build should be very useful.

Here is another view of the turntable and, comparing it with the loco alongside, it does appear to be smaller.  Anyone recognise the loco and is able to guesstimate the turntable's diameter?

 

Mike

[Compound2632]

Just now, Royal42 said:

Thanks, but I am working to N scale; however, the image of you build should be very useful.

Here is another view of the turntable and, comparing it with the loco alongside, it does appear to be smaller.  Anyone recognise the loco and is able to guesstimate the turntable's diameter?

 

See my previous post. It's pretty conclusively 50 ft.

[LNER4479]

Oops sorry - missed that!

 

Pretty certain that's either a Midland / LMS Compound or a (slightly smaller) 2P 4-4-0.

 

In which case, the 'table looks like quite a shorty, somewhere in the 45-50ft length I would guess

 

(EDIT - Compound2632 beat me to it - and with a name like that he should know!)

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

 

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That's big enough for a Compound; as can be seen in this photo, a Belpaire just fits, which is confirmation that it's 50 ft.

Nice photo. That WarwickshireRailways site is another good website. Some really useful stuff on there (not all Warwickshire either!)

[Royal42]

Lots of good information here, although some of the terms baffle me.

I had already started to draw the girders above turntable and I was working on a 75 foot diameter. 

 

I shall re-draw it as a well-type for 50 feet.  The well looks to be about 3 feet, would that sound right?  Also, anyone know the width of the turning platform, that rectangular part which the rails sit on?

 

cheers,

Mike

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royal42

[ejstubbs]

29 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I read somewhere that it was bad practice to have the turntable at the entrance to the loco shed on a BLT. It's mechanical and if it fails, it could trap a loco in the shed which is why you're more likely to see the turntable off a spur.

 

I've read that before, on here, but it certainly doesn't mean that it wasn't done.  Rothbury - as mentioned above for using the turntable as the loco release - is one example:

 

 

Perhaps better illustrated by this photo on the Disused Stations web site.  Note that, by using the turntable as a loco release as well, its potential for failure adds a further operational risk in that the loco might not be able to run round the train.

 

Other locations I'm aware of where, at least according to the OS, access to and from the loco shed involved using the turntable include Penicuik* - again also using the turntable as part of the loco release:

 

 

Dalmally - which was the terminus of the Callander to Oban Railway from 1877 to 1880:

 

 

And Thurso:

 

 

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples that could be found.

 

My guess is that, although not favoured, the practice was deemed acceptable if other constraints - probably primarily space - meant that no other solution was feasible.  Especially in the early days when the BoT appeared to be not too fond of tender-first running.  (And let's face it, space is almost always a constraint for model railways - and there's no BoT to boss you around!)

 

I suppose the risk of trapping a loco in the shed is lessened if access to the shed doesn't actually require the turntable to be turned, such as at Dalmally and Thurso.

Then of course there's the big roundhouse-style depot, where all the loco storage roads radiate off the turntable.  If that turntable breaks down then a lot more than just one loco (and probably bigger and more expensive locos too) would be stuck!  That makes me think that perhaps the risk is overstated - though I also suspect that turntables at major depots were rather more scrupulously maintained than those at remote termini, which would be a mitigating factor.

 

* The turntable at Penicuik was removed some time between the publication of that 1907 map, and the next one in 1934.

[Royal42]

What is meant by a loco release?

All this information on the turntable and I haven't even started on the rest of the area!!  My next query will probably about road heights above the tracks.  New Street station is bounded by tunnels and my layout will incorporate that crossroads in the previous images.  How would I calculate the road height above the track at those tunnels, or are all (level) roads to a standard height?

 

I did say, that every answer generates ten more questions!

 

cheers,
Mike

[ejstubbs]

5 minutes ago, Royal42 said:

What is meant by a loco release?

 

The means by which the loco at the head of a train arriving at a terminus can be "released" from the head of the train while leaving the rest of the train in the platform.  Commonly used to move the loco on to a parallel track to "run round" the train in order to couple on to the other end of the train for the return journey.  Usually this is achieved using a single turnout or a crossover, but in a few cases a turntable was used - and even more rarely, a traverser (Birmingham Moor Street being the best known example).

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... which is enormous. I think the largest size used in Britain was 70 ft, which was only found at places where it was necessary to turn a pacific. 60 ft became more common from the early 1900s but there were plenty of tables smaller than this - a 55 ft table could turn most mixed-traffic 4-6-0s. There were plenty of places where turntables as small as 42 ft survived - big enough to turn a 0-6-0 tender engine.

The two longest locos in the UK (not counting Garratts) were the P2 & Princess which are within a few inches of each other at around 64 feet total wheelbase

That would fit comfortably on a 70' TT but both would overhang considerably at the front & rear.

[john new]

2 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

The means by which the loco at the head of a train arriving at a terminus can be "released" from the head of the train while leaving the rest of the train in the platform.  Commonly used to move the loco on to a parallel track to "run round" the train in order to couple on to the other end of the train for the return journey.  Usually this is achieved using a single turnout or a crossover, but in a few cases a turntable was used - and even more rarely, a traverser (Birmingham Moor Street being the best known example).

Concur. Your other question @Royal42 is partially answered here as this sets out the minimum dimensions for clearances. Many over bridges though had much greater heights as it depended on how deep the cutting needed to be dug. You also get oddities like Winchester where there are quite deep cuttings with over bridges either side of the station yet at the London end of the platform the line goes over a road.

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Royal42 said:

Interestingly, I looked at the Peco N scale turntable and the size of that is 155mm.  If my calculations are correct, that scales out at 75 feet.

Mike

 

The mainstream commercial turntable models are always at the largest end of the size spectrum, regardless of how accurate that is, because the manufacturers don’t want to risk complaints from buyers that their big express engine model won’t fit on the turntable they’ve just bought!  

But, of course, it’s usually easier to shorten an over-long kit than to lengthen one that’s too short.

 

The current “Railway Modeller” features an N layout called “Alston” (inspired by the real Alston rather than an accurate model - I’d have called it “Nentdale” or “Laston” but that’s a digression.) Anyway, the builder has retained the “turntable as loco release” feature of the original, and describes how he modelled it by cutting down a Peco kit to 55ft (I think - issue isn’t to hand right now.).  Worth a look.

 

RT

Edited March 11, 2021 by RichardT
Caveating

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Royal42 said:

.... anyone know the width of the turning platform, that rectangular part which the rails sit on?

 

One thing that you are going to learn very quickly is that there were very few 'standard' dimensions to anything when it came to railways - it all depends on which particular prototype item you are talking about, and where it was installed.

 

That is why there is no shortcut to prototype research, and why scale model railways of specific prototypes can take many years to build.

 

John Isherwood.

 

[Royal42]

21 minutes ago, john new said:

Concur. Your other question @Royal42 is partially answered here as this sets out the minimum dimensions for clearances.

Thanks John, that is a good chart of dimensions, plus some images to show what they mean.

That list also gives me the details on how to measure the tracks; by measuring the inner sides of the rails. 

 

cheers,
Mike

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Royal42 said:

Also, anyone know the width of the turning platform, that rectangular part which the rails sit on?

The “turning platform” is called the bridge.  It is literally a girder bridge, but one that rotates rather than stays still across a gap...  Alternatively some modellers call it a deck, but I’d reserve this term for the top of the bridge, usually, though not always, planked with wood to give the loco crew something safe to walk on.

 

The overall width of the top of the deck, across the planking,  scaling from a drawing in Model Railway Journal 25 (1988), looks to be about 11ft 6”.  The girders of the bridge itself were set so that their centrelines were below the centrelines of the rails.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RichardT]

Elaborating on my last post, the article I was referring to was “NER Cowans Sheldon 50ft Turntable” by John Wright in Model Railway Journal no.25.  Really useful article on building a working model of said turntable & well (“well” = alternate name for “pit” in this context.)

 

The Cowans Sheldon bit is, as I said above, because the turntable bridge would be supplied complete by a specialist outside engineering company. The railway company would be responsible for building the well, and fitting the bridge on delivery.

 

It’s been fun supplying information but I think you might need to do some background reading now on railway civil engineering.

 

cheers,

Richard T

[Royal42]

Thanks Richard,

Mike

[john new]

My advice to all beginners is start with something small and simple and learn as you go.

 

That way when you do realise you have improved and want to change things because you have learnt more there isn't too great a time investment to be scrapped. The same factor also means you get something working fairly quickly and are not disillusioned because the mountain looks too tall to climb. Paul Lunn's layout plans books are extremely useful in this regard as they show what can be done with entry level track-work and have a better explanation of what is going on than the older drawn PECO plans books by Cyril Freezer. 

[Royal42]

Googling

1 minute ago, RichardT said:

It’s been fun supplying information but I think you might need to do some background reading now on railway civil engineering.

Googling as we speak!

Mike

[Royal42]

1 minute ago, john new said:

My advice to all beginners is start with something small and simple and learn as you go.

Hello John,

I only intend to build this one layout but there is enough detail in that to last me a few months, at least.   My wife and I live in a small bungalow and it is already full of ship and aircraft models.  One of the ship models is HMS Ark Royal IV and is being built at 1:144 scale.  It is over five feet long and takes up most of the wall in the dining room. 

 

So, this will be my only rail layout, unless I get the bug of course!

 

cheers,

Mike

[Andy W]

2 hours ago, Royal42 said:

That's a great photo' and thank you for finding and posting it.  I does appear that one can see the wheels and connecting rod, unless that is the top of a steel wall??

 

The view also shows the two different platform roof types, for the different regional railways.

 

Mike

Slightly off topic, but New Street's roof varied a lot over the years. As built the LNWR and Midland sides had several separate arched roofs covering the tracks and platforms, to different designs, the Midland side being on a curve as well adding to its distinctiveness. During the Second World War the LNWR side roofs were destroyed by bombing and eventually replaced by canopies covering just the platforms. Finally today's vast concrete slab appeared in the 1960s. So you need to check the dates of photos carefully to make sure they cover the right period. One useful thing about this picture, it includes a Birmingham City Transport doubledecker bus. These were 14ft 6in high so may help with scaling.