johnhutnick Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 From DJH: "Thank you for your request, unfortunately we only sell complete kits". So I am out of luck on a metal bodied Duchess, unless someone here has a better idea, or I buy a 214.50 kit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhutnick Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 Further, I looked at the Ebay listing for tender bodies. It shows me 39.99 postage to the US. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Tenders for Duchess, Cities, etc both Hornby Dublo and triang, Triang Hornby, Hornby etc seem to be a topic of there own. I've seen plastic HD Wrenn ones on Hornby and vice-Visa, rivet plain etc. Certainly about 25-30 years ago loads of plain plastic bodies available for next to nothing at swap meets, as got some myself to fit on old 3Rail HD ones to replace the tin ones. As for Duchess here is the GBL tender with replaced metal wheels , such an easy conversion, so was the peco coupling fixed nicely at the back Even the tender pin fits the drawbar Also spotted this, iam not really up to knowledge on newer Hornby it's a tender drive with weathered blue tender body. As for Amercom dicast does anyone know if they are hollow inside ?. There is a gift shop shut at mo (Welsh non essential) selling them locally, and what metal is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) The weathered BR Express Locomotive Blue tender came from a weathered version of the Princess Royal Class “Lady Patricia”, 46210. In the Catalogues for 2005 and 2006. As far as I know, Amercom used the term Diecast to refer to the GBL models...as parts of these were in fact diecast, mainly the underparts, wheels, etc... Edit: Confirmed my suspicions... Quote Class 8p "Duchess" No.6220 Coronation - 1938 Diecast Model 1:76 Scale Product Code: OO-2 Availability: In Stock 24.00€ https://www.amercom-hobby.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=63 Edited March 18, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston More added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) Hi all, I hope this may cast some light on the GBL engines. This is the thread here about them and how they were nearly all converted to run. Diecast does not just refer to things made of metal. Plastic can be diecast. It is the process and not the material that it refers to. Any way read through this thread. It is quite long but you will find it very interesting. It shows in one part the streamlined Coronation among other engines. That starts on about page 12. Edited March 18, 2021 by cypherman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 I think they used the term "diecast" for legal reasons. They were sold as collectable static models that came free with a magazine. They aren't made or sold for model railway use. Hence the diecast chassis. If they were sold as model railway items then I would imagine Hornby, Bachmann and others would be down on them like a ton of bricks. Jason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Belcher Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 20 hours ago, locomad2 said: Tenders for Duchess, Cities, etc both Hornby Dublo and triang, Triang Hornby, Hornby etc seem to be a topic of there own. I've seen plastic HD Wrenn ones on Hornby and vice-Visa, rivet plain etc. Certainly about 25-30 years ago loads of plain plastic bodies available for next to nothing at swap meets, as got some myself to fit on old 3Rail HD ones to replace the tin ones. As for Duchess here is the GBL tender with replaced metal wheels , such an easy conversion, so was the peco coupling fixed nicely at the back Even the tender pin fits the drawbar Also spotted this, iam not really up to knowledge on newer Hornby it's a tender drive with weathered blue tender body. As for Amercom dicast does anyone know if they are hollow inside ?. There is a gift shop shut at mo (Welsh non essential) selling them locally, and what metal is it ? The tender looks like an easy job. I have a GBL Peppercorn A2 and the tender chassis/wheels are just a one-piece diecasting so have had to replace that outright. David 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhutnick Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 At this point, I think that I may have to give up on a metal body streamlined Duchess. Having looked at Hornby ones on Ebay as best that I can, it seems that R2179 may be a good choice, due to price and it is loco drive. Does anyone here have experience with this model or what I should pay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Hi, Sorry no. My 3 are 2 tender drive versions and an original Triang Hornby one from the late 60's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 On 19/03/2021 at 13:47, johnhutnick said: At this point, I think that I may have to give up on a metal body streamlined Duchess. Having looked at Hornby ones on Ebay as best that I can, it seems that R2179 may be a good choice, due to price and it is loco drive. Does anyone here have experience with this model or what I should pay? Myself and it's my opinion I tend to avoid all modern post 2002 Hornby models due to poor performance and quality issues. I like my trains to work and not sit in cabinets, I expect a fair share of failures, & maintenance to be done. However compared to older models like Hornby dublo, triang, Lima, Wrenn etc quite simply modern Hornby and some other manufacturers are not up to working standard. Up to a few years ago I would probably buy 1 or 2 new ones a year, I've now got at least half with broken value gears, mazac rot, failed motors, bent buffer beams, cracked wheels. Hence spend my time putting decent looking bodies on 70 year old chassis which are still working 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 40 minutes ago, locomad2 said: Myself and it's my opinion I tend to avoid all modern post 2002 Hornby models due to poor performance and quality issues. I like my trains to work and not sit in cabinets, I expect a fair share of failures, & maintenance to be done. However compared to older models like Hornby dublo, triang, Lima, Wrenn etc quite simply modern Hornby and some other manufacturers are not up to working standard. Up to a few years ago I would probably buy 1 or 2 new ones a year, I've now got at least half with broken value gears, mazac rot, failed motors, bent buffer beams, cracked wheels. Hence spend my time putting decent looking bodies on 70 year old chassis which are still working I agree with this sentiment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhutnick Posted March 20, 2021 Author Share Posted March 20, 2021 Just for humor, I looked up R2179. It is 2000-2001. So is it any good or still junk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolseley Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 I'm not well up on the Tri-ang numbering system, and I couldn't find a number on the underside of the locomotives (although I didn't take any of them apart to have a look) but I have four of the early Tri-ang-Hornby models that use the Flying Scotsman type chassis block. They are practically bullet proof and have the added advantage for me in that they are very easy to convert to three rail by using Dublo (or reproduction Dublo) plunger pickups. Very reliable runners although they are rather gutless things - they can manage three Dublo coaches but start slipping when I add a fourth. I have started converting a rake of four Dublo LMS coaches to run on pin-point bearings to give them something a bit more realistic for them to pull rather than just two or three coaches (my layout is 8'x4', so four coaches is my limit). I have a tender drive model, but I did have a few issues with the conversion to three rail and haven't got around to trying to sort it out yet. I also have a spare streamliner body which hopefully can be made to fit my H-D City of London when it arrives...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Wolseley said: I'm not well up on the Tri-ang numbering system, and I couldn't find a number on the underside of the locomotives (although I didn't take any of them apart to have a look) but I have four of the early Tri-ang-Hornby models that use the Flying Scotsman type chassis block. They are practically bullet proof and have the added advantage for me in that they are very easy to convert to three rail by using Dublo (or reproduction Dublo) plunger pickups. Very reliable runners although they are rather gutless things - they can manage three Dublo coaches but start slipping when I add a fourth. I have started converting a rake of four Dublo LMS coaches to run on pin-point bearings to give them something a bit more realistic for them to pull rather than just two or three coaches (my layout is 8'x4', so four coaches is my limit). I have a tender drive model, but I did have a few issues with the conversion to three rail and haven't got around to trying to sort it out yet. I also have a spare streamliner body which hopefully can be made to fit my H-D City of London when it arrives...... Weight is an issue with all triang models, however the X04 is a quite powerful motor, add extra weight either a diecast body, wills white metal kit or just simply lead and haulage capacity can be doubled. The first Duchess was short to fit on the 4-6-2 chassis, then later a tender drive with a longer body, not many were made compared to others so quite rare yet don't attract high prices, the modern version a new body & chassis came out about 2002. Myself not a great fan of the tender drive some are ok but most squeak dispite constant oil, suffer poor haulage power, only exceptions is the early 9F version (1971) got one once to haul 90 Hornby dublo wagons that's quite a load. The other is an early Thomas the tank "Gordon" again why when its the same motor is a puzzle, yet this can easily pull 7-8 HD coaches, compared to most tender driven when your lucky to pull 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolseley Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 (edited) This thread has got me going through my collection of Duchesses (at least 18, but I might have another couple stored away somewhere) and so far I have found two Wrenn examples and two Tri-ang-Hornby streamliners that still need to be converted to three rail, one Wrenn that needs to be repainted and one Duchess of Atholl (soon to re-emerge from the paint shops as Duchess of Buccleuch) that had a failed magnet. Fortunately I had one spare magnet and swapped them over - the locomotive, which could barely move before, was performing flawlessly after the magnet was changed. I have never really liked tender drive, if only because the idea of a tender pushing a locomotive around the track just seems wrong..... Edited March 21, 2021 by Wolseley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 I find all my Dublo locomotives (except the R1 0-6-0T, but that's plastic...) will haul at least five HD coaches. Tri-ang will manage three except for my B12 which can handle five (not sure why as she's basically the same as all the others). Many years ago I measured the rolling resistance of a Dublo LMS coach as eight grams. I've got to take Dog number 2 out so I'll finish when I get back.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Il Grifone said: I find all my Dublo locomotives (except the R1 0-6-0T, but that's plastic...) will haul at least five HD coaches. Tri-ang will manage three except for my B12 which can handle five (not sure why as she's basically the same as all the others). Many years ago I measured the rolling resistance of a Dublo LMS coach as eight grams. I've got to take Dog number 2 out so I'll finish when I get back.... Something I've been fascinated with since I read and still have the "Model Railway Constructor" mag mid 70's which did an article on in the pulling power of British OO locomotives available past and present. Pulling power measured in grams, rolling resistance measured in the same, I've used two methods, weight on a pulley and spring balance. However noticed differences in rolling resistance and starting resistance. Starting resistance slightly higher, once the stock moves rolling resistance is measued and is less. Good way to demonstrate this is a long train of small wagons, if all the coupling are tensioned then often the locomotive won't move it, but if the locomotive reverses, then starts, it starts to move one at a time, it can eventually pull them all. The amount of extra wagons moved can be as much as a 10 with a 40 wagon train. I believe real trains use this method to start heavy trains Yes HD coaches take about 3 grams however because there is less stock therefore less coupling locomotives using the reverse back method have less chance pulling longer trains, so if its 10 coaches you might find only one extra so increase of 10%, while wagons its often 20-25% 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 IIRC the above tests gave about 40-50 grams of tractive effort* from Dublo locomotives. My measurement method was rather rough and ready - a weight on a piece of string over a pulley - one day I'll do it properly. They are supposed to start from rest on a gradient of 1 in 30, which does rather tie in with my result. Pin-points on the other hand will start on 1 in 100. *This applies to the Pacifics (except for the rebuilt West Country which will pull a house down - I've had ten coaches behind mine, which didn't worry her at all). The N2 and 4MT will handle eight with no trouble and I regularly had seven SD6 behind 'Bristol Castle'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverfox17 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 I used both maroon and blue modern Hornby bodies on Dublo chassis, and the free plastic one. All fitted with only a slight modification, the main bit was thinning the cylinders. The Hornby chassis's were sold on as spares, in one piece as I don't strip bits for profit. I also have a Jamieson one but that is not easy to paint, there is one on Ebay now but not cheap as it is from our friend in the Lake District. Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Belcher Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 16:40, locomad2 said: Myself and it's my opinion I tend to avoid all modern post 2002 Hornby models due to poor performance and quality issues. I like my trains to work and not sit in cabinets, I expect a fair share of failures, & maintenance to be done. However compared to older models like Hornby dublo, triang, Lima, Wrenn etc quite simply modern Hornby and some other manufacturers are not up to working standard. Up to a few years ago I would probably buy 1 or 2 new ones a year, I've now got at least half with broken value gears, mazac rot, failed motors, bent buffer beams, cracked wheels. Hence spend my time putting decent looking bodies on 70 year old chassis which are still working I don't think I have a Hornby loco in the collection that wasn't a Margate product. My Fowler 2-6-4T was bought in 1996 or so. Since then most of my locos have been bashes (like the A2 and Caprotti 5MT), motorised Airfix/Dapol kits (4MT Mogul) or repainted/detailed 2nd hand models (Rovex Class 25 & DMU, HD Duchess, Jouef 40). David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 22 hours ago, Il Grifone said: IIRC the above tests gave about 40-50 grams of tractive effort* from Dublo locomotives. My measurement method was rather rough and ready - a weight on a piece of string over a pulley - one day I'll do it properly. They are supposed to start from rest on a gradient of 1 in 30, which does rather tie in with my result. Pin-points on the other hand will start on 1 in 100. *This applies to the Pacifics (except for the rebuilt West Country which will pull a house down - I've had ten coaches behind mine, which didn't worry her at all). The N2 and 4MT will handle eight with no trouble and I regularly had seven SD6 behind 'Bristol Castle'. These fiqures are roughly what MRC found out, it also used the pulley method, locomotives attached and reading made if stall or slip. I use both pulley and spring balance and working on adapting a wagon to measure drawbar effort. The article also noticed the pulling power of the then early 9F evening star, having done some research with the excellent Pat Hammond books vol 2&3 it seems Triang Hornby and Richard Lines put some considerable effort to build high quality locomotive using the X800 tender driven Ringfield motor. Fortunately I've got one and still it out performs all other locomotives, at the time 1972 layout wasn't big enough to really put it to the test. I've recorded it pulling 90 HD wagons and a drawbar effort of nearly 100 grams, although amp meter did measure over an amp. It's a shame they didn't use the motor in other tender driven locomotives though the 70' 80's etc, but cost was considerably even in 1972 it cost about £10, lot of money then when it was take home pay of a bricklayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) I'll have to try my 9F when I can get back to the UK. Her driving wheels to tend to lock up however. Everything seems OK, so perhaps it's just excessive slop? Edited March 22, 2021 by Il Grifone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 The very first Ringfield Tender Drives had 6 wheel drive, all driven wheels with traction tyres. Pickup was from both sides of the loco driving wheels, passed to the permanently coupled tender by two wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locomad2 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Ruffnut Thorston said: The very first Ringfield Tender Drives had 6 wheel drive, all driven wheels with traction tyres. Pickup was from both sides of the loco driving wheels, passed to the permanently coupled tender by two wires. That's the one traction tyres are neoprene? Mine are still the original, would like to know a source so other tyred locomotives could be fitted with them, nearest I found is heat strink 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 23, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2021 On 21/03/2021 at 08:03, johnhutnick said: Just for humor, I looked up R2179. It is 2000-2001. So is it any good or still junk? I believe that an R number followed by 4 digits is a Chinese built model. No doubt others will be along to correct me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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