Helston Revisited

[Miss Prism]

2 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I did wonder when I could not see it any lists.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

 

2 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

But I suppose a Toad with "Helston" on its side is entirely possible for the 1930s I am modelling or would "Gwinear Road" have been more likely?

 

'Helston Branch' would be more typically-GWR I think.

 

The Hornby AA15 is the best of the RTR bunch.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

There are also DCC Concepts printed ballast pads which stick to the underside of the point.  They do seem to be a lot pricier than when I got mine though.

Paul.

That's what I use on the scenic sections but frankly they're not really worth the effort. Paper, painted to match the ballast, is better value. If I hadn't bought a load of the DCC Concepts stickers at the outset I wouldn't bother.

[Andy Keane]

Thanks both for the advice on track laying. I will certainly use some weight when glueing down and I think a bit of board in between is wise - I will probably use books as weights.

I will start without droppers on the plain track as this is the fiddle yard and it will mean the connections will be easy to inspect and fix if needed (my soldering is so-so).

And I think a large hole for the point operating rod is probably a good plan as a beginner - I am using the DCC concepts motors.

As I am paranoid, one thing I have already done is added small bridging wires to all my electrofrogs between the blades and the rails they are hinged off so they are electrically connected and don't rely on the mechanical hinge - not that pretty but again this is a fiddle yard - in the station the bullhead points don't have those inges so its not needed.

I will keep you posted on how it goes and if it all turns very wrong I will rush back here for sympathy and advice.

Andy

[5BarVT]

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, when adding droppers don’t forget to clean and tin first.

i.e. scrape rail where you want the dropper to go, tin with solder

tin dropper

put dropper in place (hold with long nose pliers if it doesn’t sit tight up) then bring iron in until solder melts and move away fast.

A hot iron and speed works best so that the sleepers don’t melt from prolonged slow heating.

 

Possibly try on an off cut of rail before doing it for real.

 

Apologies if you know all this already.

 

Paul.

[TrevorP1]

12 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I am now about to start laying the track of my fiddle yard (which will be cork topped before the track is PVAed and pinned down):

I plan to start at the lower left corner as this road is straight and parallel to the board edge.

Does anyone have any advice about how best to proceed? For example is it best to lay the three interconnected points at the lower left using insulated rail joiners first then add the flexitrack?

Also I will be putting my motors under the boards - how big a hole do people reckon to allow for the operating rod given this is a non-senic section?

Am I best to use track pins to start before I use the PVA?

Do people drill the holes for the droppers after laying and then insert the dropper wires?

Given I am using Peco electrofrog points these have wires on out of the box so I probably need to drill thiose holes at the start.

All input gratefully recieved as I have not done this before, particularly any gotchas that people have hit in the past.

Andy

 

I'm a bit late on this now but yes starting at bottom left seems a good idea to me.

 

Be generous with the hole for the point operating rod - 10mm or so - it will give you a bit of fiddle room. The last thing you want is the rod binding on the baseboard when it's all fixed down. As regards covering the hole, I haven't bothered in the fiddle yard but on the scenic side I've used the printed ballast labels. Having said that, painted paper would do just as well and it's free.

 

Solder dropper wires onto the underside of the rail first and drill holes in the baseboard to suit. Occasionally it goes wrong but starting in the fiddle yard will be good 'practice'. As you have said, don't trust the point blade to make electrical contact. I've done this on one place on my layout and guess what...

 

Lastly, I've just used pins to fix the track down in my fiddle yard. If the track is pinned you can make alterations fairly easily if need be. I've done this two or three times now to gain more space and it was quite an easy job. If the track had been glued down, especially with PVA,  this wouldn't have been easily possible. Without being a 'know all' you may think you have the optimum siding arrangement for your needs but operating the layout might suggest alternatives.

 

Lastly, good luck!

[Andy Keane]

51 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

I'm a bit late on this now but yes starting at bottom left seems a good idea to me.

 

Be generous with the hole for the point operating rod - 10mm or so - it will give you a bit of fiddle room. The last thing you want is the rod binding on the baseboard when it's all fixed down. As regards covering the hole, I haven't bothered in the fiddle yard but on the scenic side I've used the printed ballast labels. Having said that, painted paper would do just as well and it's free.

 

Solder dropper wires onto the underside of the rail first and drill holes in the baseboard to suit. Occasionally it goes wrong but starting in the fiddle yard will be good 'practice'. As you have said, don't trust the point blade to make electrical contact. I've done this on one place on my layout and guess what...

 

Lastly, I've just used pins to fix the track down in my fiddle yard. If the track is pinned you can make alterations fairly easily if need be. I've done this two or three times now to gain more space and it was quite an easy job. If the track had been glued down, especially with PVA,  this wouldn't have been easily possible. Without being a 'know all' you may think you have the optimum siding arrangement for your needs but operating the layout might suggest alternatives.

 

Lastly, good luck!

Trevor

Maybe track pins only is a good plan - as you say who knows how it will pan out in use. If using only pins what sort of pin pattern do you use? So how many pins and where on a 3way point? how many and where on a 3 foot length of felxitrack?

thanks in advance

Andy

[TrevorP1]

29 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Trevor

Maybe track pins only is a good plan - as you say who knows how it will pan out in use. If using only pins what sort of pin pattern do you use? So how many pins and where on a 3way point? how many and where on a 3 foot length of felxitrack?

thanks in advance

Andy

 

On plain track I've put the pins about every 6 inches having predrilled the holes in the sleepers. Depending on your baseboard material it might be advisable to partly pre drill holes in the baseboard as well. For the pointwork I've used the holes as marked by Peco, again making sure the holes are pre drilled before pinning - this avoids any  possible distortion. In a couple of places I seem to remember drilling extra holes for some reason or other but I honestly can't remember. At the end of the day if you think more pins are needed after laying you can just drill extra holes. From memory I think my pins are the longer Hornby type.

[Andy Keane]

Currently my fiddle yard is designed with the head roads all at least 300mm long. Does this seem about right? It means they could all handle a king class loco but clearly not a Beyer-Garrett

If I shortened slightly every inch I claw back goes into the storage roads but equally I don't want to be mean with myself when running locos around, especially as I want to automate the turn around so I don't want crash stops when that is happening, just to squeeze a bit more storage.

Andy

ps - I assume nobody advocates painting or varnishing the cork layer before laying the track in the fiddle yard?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 06/01/2022 at 22:32, Andy Keane said:

I am now about to start laying the track of my fiddle yard (which will be cork topped before the track is PVAed and pinned down):

 

I plan to start at the lower left corner as this road is straight and parallel to the board edge.

Does anyone have any advice about how best to proceed? For example is it best to lay the three interconnected points at the lower left using insulated rail joiners first then add the flexitrack?

Also I will be putting my motors under the boards - how big a hole do people reckon to allow for the operating rod given this is a non-senic section?

Am I best to use track pins to start before I use the PVA?

Do people drill the holes for the droppers after laying and then insert the dropper wires?

Given I am using Peco electrofrog points these have wires on out of the box so I probably need to drill thiose holes at the start.

All input gratefully recieved as I have not done this before, particularly any gotchas that people have hit in the past.

Andy

While laying out the track it occured to me I could fit in another head road so I now have another point on order:

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[MJI]

My 4566 has arrived.

 

As has a 3D printer

[Andy Keane]

Fiddle yard boards all painted and topped with cork:

Track cut and laid in position ready to drill holes for droppers, point control rods and track pins:

The gaps in the sleepers allow me to easily fit Peco insulating rail joiners.

In the end under-board structure has meant my shortest head road is 320mm so a good size even for tender locos.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Alongside track laying I have now finished the five kits I set out to do over the Christmas holiday. Two Macaw Gs, two Siphon Fs and a Paco:

You can see that I opted for a smaller set of wording for the "SIPHON.F" on the right hand one which then fits properly into the space available.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I have now laid the fiddle yard track - PVA glue to 2.5mm cork with lots of track pins on the curves to hold things while the glue dried and 5/8" no 2 brass wood screws at the joints (really hard to find these but I tracked down some old stock)  to which the rails are all soldered. This is especially important for the little Y-point as I had to cut its frog down to fit  the board edge so its actually almost the only thing holding it in place. All set up with tracksetta straights and curves while cutting the track to length, etc. I have tried my hardest to get the long staights to run nice and true and parallel becuase otherwise, while the results may work they would be really offensive to look at. I have loaded my two Hornby B sets plus a Bachmann Earl for effect. The lonely wagon is the tool I use to check gaps etc are smooth. The longest road should hold six coaches and I need this because there are photos of such formations being worked out of Helston. Next I need to wire it all up with the DCC Concepts digital point motors switching the electro frog points.

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Graham T]

Very nice Andy - we need an "I'm jealous" button

[Andy Keane]

Should I ever get the space this yard could have lengths of six straight roads inserted in the middle, but as it will house six coaches which are together longer than the Heston platform there is little need.

Longer term, if I extended the line to the Lizard as was once planned, I could get a full circuit by adding a bridge instead of the carriage shed and bring the line around and into the yard from the other end so I would then have continous running with trains in both directions passing in the station and the yard.

Pipe dreams really but you never know.

Andy

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Tankerman]

On 07/01/2022 at 00:08, The Stationmaster said:

There definitely were branchline allocated vans in GWR days - Bridport had one (a six wheeler by some quirk of fate but in late GWR times).  But several things to note -

1. We don't know which particular versions of freight brakevans, if any, were allocated to the Helston branch (but equally does anybody else know?).

2. The RU branding was not introduced until some time in WWII - the publication date of the relevant Instruction was September 1943 but the branding might well have appeared earlier - maybe even in 1942 as wartime operating conditions forced changes to the way freight brakevans worked? 

3. The 'Not In Common Use' branding appears to have been a BR introduction but I'm unable to date it - the earliest reference I can find is dated 1960 but it almost certainly appeared before then, probably very early 1950s.

4.  Prior to the wartime change and the adoption of RU freight brakevans were allocated to individual Goods Guards so in effect they were not directly allocated to locations although each Guard was obviously based at a location,  So it is not entirely clear if depot names were carried on the vans and photographic evidence would be the only guide in that respect (something I haven't yet had time to delve into in old photos).

 

Re item 3. My memory for things seen is not too bad for many years ago, but don't ask me what happened yesterday.

 

I am pretty certain that the Toad brake vans on the Falmouth branch were lettered Truro with R U underneath and Not In Common Use below that by 1956. I was 10 and regularly visited Penryn station on a Saturday to watch the local goods being shunted from when I was 8 years old. The reason being that I asked one of the station staff the meaning of R U between those ages.

 

I've said vans because, although I was unaware of it at the time, in addition to the Falmouth branch, both the Newham (Truro goods) and Newquay (via Chacewater) local goods trains were also worked from Truro. If anyone either knows, or can suggest a site that I can visit to find out the running numbers of the Truro based brake vans, I would be grateful.

 

Incidentally I can also remember BR standard, ex LMS vans and ex SR vans appearing in the Saturday empty goods working returning to Truro from Falmouth at Penryn. 

[MJI]

Note both parents are Cornish, one from near Falmouth the other Lizard.

 

I can just remember eary DMUs on the Falmouth branch (I remember a 3 car and a single car), an Uncle (now dead) remembers steam, my dad (from Lizard) also remembers the Helston branch and the work put into closing it, just after it was used to bring in tons of materials for Culdrose.

 

I did consider Perranwell, but Nancegollan goods yard won me over.

 

This is a fun read and a piccie of a set I modelled in plain blue as B465

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/falmouth-branch.html

[Andy Keane]

56 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

 

Re item 3. My memory for things seen is not too bad for many years ago, but don't ask me what happened yesterday.

 

I am pretty certain that the Toad brake vans on the Falmouth branch were lettered Truro with R U underneath and Not In Common Use below that by 1956. I was 10 and regularly visited Penryn station on a Saturday to watch the local goods being shunted from when I was 8 years old. The reason being that I asked one of the station staff the meaning of R U between those ages.

 

I've said vans because, although I was unaware of it at the time, in addition to the Falmouth branch, both the Newham (Truro goods) and Newquay (via Chacewater) local goods trains were also worked from Truro. If anyone either knows, or can suggest a site that I can visit to find out the running numbers of the Truro based brake vans, I would be grateful.

 

Incidentally I can also remember BR standard, ex LMS vans and ex SR vans appearing in the Saturday empty goods working returning to Truro from Falmouth at Penryn. 

I assume you have seen the page Miss Prism pointed at:  http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

[Tankerman]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Note both parents are Cornish, one from near Falmouth the other Lizard.

 

I can just remember eary DMUs on the Falmouth branch (I remember a 3 car and a single car), an Uncle (now dead) remembers steam, my dad (from Lizard) also remembers the Helston branch and the work put into closing it, just after it was used to bring in tons of materials for Culdrose.

 

I did consider Perranwell, but Nancegollan goods yard won me over.

 

This is a fun read and a piccie of a set I modelled in plain blue as B465

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/falmouth-branch.html

 

So were mine. father from Falmouth, mother from Penryn which is also where I was born and one of my uncles lived at Perranwell.

 

IIRC Nancegollen was enlarged before WWII and extended during it. Are you modelling after it was altered?

 

[Tankerman]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

I assume you have seen the page Miss Prism pointed at:  http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

 

I did have a quick look at it and thought that it was just the one photo of a brake van. 

[MJI]

34 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

 

So were mine. father from Falmouth, mother from Penryn which is also where I was born and one of my uncles lived at Perranwell.

 

IIRC Nancegollen was enlarged before WWII and extended during it. Are you modelling after it was altered?

 

 

BR as I like wagons and Helston is over modelled

[Andy Keane]

31 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

 

I did have a quick look at it and thought that it was just the one photo of a brake van. 

Its a real pity the allocations file attached to that page does not cover a wider range but I guess its hard work doing such research.

[Andy Keane]

2 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

BR as I like wagons and Helston is over modelled

I think Nacncegollen is a great layout to model - just too big for the space I have.

What would be really nice would be Gwinear Road then you could run just about anything you wanted!

Andy

[MJI]

5 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I think Nacncegollen is a great layout to model - just too big for the space I have.

What would be really nice would be Gwinear Road then you could run just about anything you wanted!

Andy

 

I have probably bitten off more than I can chew. yard would be hinged flap. I reckon I would have to halve the lengths, I was thinking small branch station and 4 carriage trains.

[Andy Keane]

The first DCC Concepts point motor fitted. One down, 27 more to go - days of fun ahead.

I have left the Peco point tie-bar spring in place on this first one so there is a satisfying snap as the motor flips the point. But is this wise? - do people generally reckon to remove the springs and just rely on the motors to hold the blades closed? Also I have screwed the motor down but the instructions talk about jut using the sticky pads to hold motors in place - not sure how this would stand up over time.

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane