Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

I have succumbed to the dark side and ordered a diesel loco! I grew up around Hitchin - my two grannies lived either side of the huge embankment that runs north of Hitchin station. The very first loco my Dad got for our three rail system was a die-cast deltic in green of the sort that used to charge over there in my youth. So I have been and ordered an Accurascale version: https://accurascale.co.uk/products/d9006-the-fife-and-forfar-yeomanry?utm_campaign=emailmarketing_134781272249&utm_medium=email&utm_source=shopify_email , https://accurascale.co.uk/products/d9006-the-fife-and-forfar-yeomanry?utm_campaign=emailmarketing_134781272249&utm_medium=email&utm_source=shopify_email

Absolutely nowhere realistic to run it but I had so much fun as a kid watching that Dublo Deltic rushing around I could not resist. Anybody waiting on the platform of my Helston will be in for a shock.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Back to track laying. I am taking the plunge and putting down the station throat. Any errors here will have the track falling off the embankment at the other end.

The cutting sides and road bridge will in the end hide the controlers and the fiddle yard with its buffer stops which are visibile in these views.

 

[Regularity]

Hope you don’t mind the suggestion, but a spot of filler in the gaps of the pcb sleepers. ‘Tis easier if done now, before the ballasting, and it will improve the look of the track no end.

[Graham T]

That's got a nice sweeping look to it.  Did you say they were Marcway points, I don't remember?

[Andy Keane]

Yes these are Marcway points - the whole thing built as a single four foot long unit on top of a paper plan I sent them that I created in AnyRail.

To make the big curves I simply laid various bends over each other rather than using any points from those that are built in.

They have done a rather better job than the set I built 45 years ago which are the first picture in this set of posts.

 

And yes, I agree some form of infill to disguise the cuts in the copper layer seems a sensible plan. I would welcome ideas as to what to use.

I thought about doing it before I lay the track but suspect it will be simpler to do it when it is solidly fixed down and therefore not likely to flex and throw it all off.

 

Also when it comes to ballast, photos show the ballast around these points had practically sunk into a mass of grime and dirt level with the sleeper tops so that relatively few ballast stones remain visible. I will need to concoct a filler and ballast mix for that. Then I plan to spray the whole thing with various washes of track grime.

Again any suggestions for how to make up a mix of ballast and filler would be welcome - ideally I want a filler that has some flex as this is a portable layout and so bound to get the odd knock when being moved around.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Regularity]

5 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

And yes, I agree some form of infill to disguise the cuts in the copper layer seems a sensible plan. I would welcome ideas as to what to use.

Whatever you feel like using, I suppose - anything that will stick. As you have already painted them, some like green putty from Squadron might do it, or Humbrol filler - something I used about 40 years ago when I last built PCB track.

Personally, I would apply ballast using “N gauge” material first (most stuff advertised as “00” is too coarse - you want something no bigger than about 0.7mm), then some finer material over the top. Some use DAS clay, but I have used Woodland Scenics fine turf, later applying a wash of almost black to stain it. You can do this several times, building it up until you are happy with it.  (I am one of the apply it dry, get it into place, then mist it with wet water followed by dilute PVA school of thought. Let it dry, and apply some more layers.)

[Harlequin]

11 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Also when it comes to ballast, photos show the ballast around these points had practically sunk into a mass of grime and dirt level with the sleeper tops so that relatively few ballast stones remain visible. I will need to concoct a filler and ballast mix for that. Then I plan to spray the whole thing with various washes of track grime.

 

 

You have studied the images far more than any of us so I hesitate to ask but are you sure the GWR let the ballast get into that state in the '30s? That sounds more like an end of steam /  just before closure state of affairs.

 

(Agree about N gauge ballast.)

 

[Andy Keane]

5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

You have studied the images far more than any of us so I hesitate to ask but are you sure the GWR let the ballast get into that state in the '30s? That sounds more like an end of steam /  just before closure state of affairs.

 

(Agree about N gauge ballast.)

 

Phil

The ballasting is an interesting issue for me as getting it right is a big thing when I have a sixteen foot long station model.

 

When built the photos show a very clean condition but with the sleepers essentially buried so that little of them is visible at all. This was I think standard practice at the time.

 

The best photos I have from the 1930s are the Lens of Sutton images from the overbridge and from track level by the goods shed and again most of the sleepers in the station are are pretty much buried in both images (both are in the Jenkins book, the track level one is my main guide and this shows what I need to acheive - I cannot post it here because of copyright but its widely available). At this point in time I don’t think this condition would have been deliberate by the permanent way gangs but rather an accumulation of crud, but happy to stand corrected. There is an interesting colour variation, with the material around the rails being much darker than that between the tracks, while that between the rails is somewhere in the middle. The track under the overbridge shows proper ballast in another 1930s image so this is what makes me think the condition in the station area was not deliberate.

 

I suspect in the goods yard the area between the tracks would have been compressed cinders and general dirt but I don't have a good period image of that area so any comments on ballast in goods yard areas most welcome.

 

Then by the 1950s the ballast is much more apparent and there are very distinct areas of ballast around the track and bare areas in between. So at some point the GWR or Western Region changed their practice or at least got a grip on the ballasting.

 

As ever all comments much appreciated.

Andy

Edited April 14, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, Regularity said:

Whatever you feel like using, I suppose - anything that will stick. As you have already painted them, some like green putty from Squadron might do it, or Humbrol filler - something I used about 40 years ago when I last built PCB track.

Personally, I would apply ballast using “N gauge” material first (most stuff advertised as “00” is too coarse - you want something no bigger than about 0.7mm), then some finer material over the top. Some use DAS clay, but I have used Woodland Scenics fine turf, later applying a wash of almost black to stain it. You can do this several times, building it up until you are happy with it.  (I am one of the apply it dry, get it into place, then mist it with wet water followed by dilute PVA school of thought. Let it dry, and apply some more layers.)

Really helpful comments about ballasting - I have never done this before so most helpful. I am planning the dry approach but had not heard of misiting before applying the dilute PVA - I would have thought this would stop the PVA penetrating into the ballast layers but am a complete beginner so will try out on some spare track first.

[5BarVT]

9 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I would have thought this would stop the PVA penetrating into the ballast layers

I’ve not done ballasting so commenting as an observer, but I think it is the opposite.  Without the wetting first, the PVA mix is more likely to pool on the surface.  Wetting means it goes down into the ballast evenly.

Paul.

[Harlequin]

The key phrase is "wet water". Mr @Regularity can explain. 🙂

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Harlequin

[5BarVT]

26 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The key phrase is "wet water". Mr @Regularity can explain. 🙂

I see tension here.  Surface tension, or more importantly, lack of surface tension.

🙂

Paul.

[Graham T]

I tried misting with "wet water" onto dry ballast, but couldn't get on with that method.  I eventually settled on dry ballast, carefully brushed into place.  The trick here I found was to put down less than you think you'll need; it's much easier to add a little - I used an espresso spoon for this - than it is to take it away!

 

Once I had the ballast where I wanted it, I used a pipette to soak it with dilute PVA.  This had a little washing-up liquid added to it, as per the "wet water".  I found no problems with it pooling, it soaked into the ballast nicely.  Again, less is more here; apply slowly, as you will be able to see it soaking through the ballast as you go.  Once everything has dried thoroughly you'll need to clean off the rail surfaces of course, and you might find the odd chip of ballast here and there that needs to be removed.

 

This dries into a nice firm ballast, but I've found it's still relatively easy to lift, using a paint scraper or similar, if you ever need to re-lay track (something that happens at Chuffnell Regis rather more than I'd like...)

[Andy Keane]

2 minutes ago, Graham T said:

I tried misting with "wet water" onto dry ballast, but couldn't get on with that method.  I eventually settled on dry ballast, carefully brushed into place.  The trick here I found was to put down less than you think you'll need; it's much easier to add a little - I used an espresso spoon for this - than it is to take it away!

 

Once I had the ballast where I wanted it, I used a pipette to soak it with dilute PVA.  This had a little washing-up liquid added to it, as per the "wet water".  I found no problems with it pooling, it soaked into the ballast nicely.  Again, less is more here; apply slowly, as you will be able to see it soaking through the ballast as you go.  Once everything has dried thoroughly you'll need to clean off the rail surfaces of course, and you might find the odd chip of ballast here and there that needs to be removed.

 

This dries into a nice firm ballast, but I've found it's still relatively easy to lift, using a paint scraper or similar, if you ever need to re-lay track (something that happens at Chuffnell Regis rather more than I'd like...)

Graham

The method you describe is the one I think I will start with - I am sure I have seen it written up elsewhere. I think the washing-up liquid may well be a key ingredient.

But first I have to turn the boards over and start installing point motors and wiring and droppers etc.

On the copper clad sleepers I am wondering if it might be neater to solder the droppers to the sleepers than to the rails themselves.

Andy

ps - nearly made a big error when gluing the track down - I had PVA on the point tie bars - that would have been a disaster if I had not noticed!

[Graham T]

46 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Graham

The method you describe is the one I think I will start with - I am sure I have seen it written up elsewhere. I think the washing-up liquid may well be a key ingredient.

But first I have to turn the boards over and start installing point motors and wiring and droppers etc.

On the copper clad sleepers I am wondering if it might be neater to solder the droppers to the sleepers than to the rails themselves.

Andy

ps - nearly made a big error when gluing the track down - I had PVA on the point tie bars - that would have been a disaster if I had not noticed!

 

Andy, you're absolutely right, I should have stressed that - take care around anything that's supposed to move!  Although one of the nice things with dilute PVA is that it's a fairly weak bond, and easy to clear away from tie-bars etc. whilst still wet - a cotton bud is handy here.

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

On the copper clad sleepers I am wondering if it might be neater to solder the droppers to the sleepers than to the rails themselves.

Easier, yes, but uglier.  I haven’t used copper clad on HT v5 but I did on v4 in non scenic areas and soldering to the copper is what I did there.

Paul.

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The key phrase is "wet water". Mr @Regularity can explain. 🙂

 

 

A drop of IPA, or soap.

[David C]

Regarding the gaps in your PCB sleepers, I found Polyfilla the easiest to use. I tried Milliput fine initially, but it was difficult to get it to stick to the base of my PCB points. Polyfilla (or similar) ready mixed stuff did stay where I'd put it - and more importantly, on both Woodstowe and my newish Bavarian epic, Weidenstein, it has stayed put. 

 

If you fill the gap slightly over the top, its easier to sand down so that it is level with the top of the PCB and the result is that it is impossible to see the join.

 

Ballasting is a job I hate, because it takes for ever. Neat PVA first, then N gauge ballast sprinkled on top and then pressed down. I always need to do it at least twice, the second time with dilute PVA (50:50%). Once I'm more or less satisfied, I check both sides of each rail to remove any stray bits of ballast which have clung on to the rails. This does of course usually chip or at least discolour any paint which has been applied, so its out with the paint brush touching everything up. The whole process is tedious to an extreme, but nothing looks worse than odd stones stuck halfway up the rails. 

 

David C

[Andy Keane]

Another slight issue is the ash and inspection pits on the engine shed line. I am not really sure how best to create these while ensuring the rail either side is stable.

I do have a pair of Auhagen plastic pit mouldings I could use but these are for flat-bottom rail:

I am wondering how much it would show if the engine shed spur was done in code 75 flat bottom, particularly if the ballast is made quite high and covers most of the rail bottom.

Alternatively I can try and glue bullhead into the slots. Or I could glue down PCB to the base board either side of a slot and solder the bullhead directly to that using a track gauge.

Has anyone any better ideas for making pits between rails?

Andy

[Andy Keane]

And on the subject of PVA I am using a 5 lire can of "No Nonsense PVA" from ScrewFix that is very effective and way cheaper than the small bottles in my local hardware shop

[Mulgabill]

54 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

And on the subject of PVA I am using a 5 lire can of "No Nonsense PVA" from ScrewFix that is very effective and way cheaper than the small bottles in my local hardware shop

 

Likewise, I use the Toolstation version. There is also the added benefit

that once dry, it can be easily softened, by soaking with water, and scraped

loose. Should serious errors be identified.

 

All the best

TONY

[longchap]

2 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

 

Likewise, I use the Toolstation version. There is also the added benefit

that once dry, it can be easily softened, by soaking with water, and scraped

loose. Should serious errors be identified.

 

All the best

TONY

 

PVA and it's cousin IPA are usefully similar in so much that when you buy a 5 litre container it lasts you until you get your pension.

 

I understand that IPA is far more palatable when it falls down your throat though!

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

🍺

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, longchap said:

I understand that IPA is far more palatable when it falls down your throat though!

If it’s India Pale Ale, yes.

Wouldn’t recommend it for iso-propyl alcohol, though!

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Has anyone any better ideas for making pits between rails?

A friend has used the Peco ones with success. They are available for BH rail too.

[Andy Keane]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

A friend has used the Peco ones with success. They are available for BH rail too.

Do you know the part number for bullhead rail? - I can only find the LK-156 Inspection Pit which is I think the flat bottom version that Graham has used. The LK-56 says its suits all their PECO 00/H0 Setrack and Streamline Flexible track systems but I don't really see how that is possible if it takes code 100 rail.