Helston Revisited

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Is it called a lock(ing) bar rather than a fouling bar because it's associated with an FPL? When there is no FPL involved would the similar mechanism be called a "fouling bar" ?

 

Lock (or locking) bars and fouling bars serve(d) two totally different functions.  The lock bar lies at the toe end of the points, or within the point alongside the switch or stock rails, and fulfils the item in 'The Requirements' to provide a mechanism  to prevent facing points being moved as a train passes over the points .  Hence on most arrangement with the locking bar on its 'down' position the front stretcher bar is physically cocked by the bolt which in turn is driven by the lock bar.   When  wheels pass over the bar it is physically impossible for a Signalman to operate the lever which would lift the bar and thus unbolt the points.  The big advantage of arranging it with the lock bar driving the bolt is that even if the rodding is damaged or broken the bar can't lift and the point cannot become accidentally unbolted.

 

So you would, in the past, have found these bars on facing points on passenger lines.  They have been replaced by a track circuit which does the same but electrically by means of locking the FPL lever (which nowadays only works the bolt) so that lever can't be moved when the track circuit is occupied or has failed safe.

 

A fouling bar carries out a very different task and would normally be found in the vicinity of the trailing end of a point.  Its purpose was to indicate - by inability to move the lever which operated it or by an electrical indicator (if it was an electric depression bar) - that something was standing foul of the point on a particular route out of it and thus lock the point and/or signals to prevent a movement being set up that would pass the place which was fouled.  Fouling bars were generally used where visibility of a critical point was not very good and movements were likely to be made in quick succession over different routes.  As such, certainly on the GWR, they were not particularly common whereas point lock(ing) bars would at one time be found on every facing point on a passenger line.

4 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

 

 

Normally, yes, but for some reason, not at Helston when the new frame went in.  The trap was on a separate lever.

Don't ask me why!  Possibly ‘history’ of drivers going because the traps were over when the road was actually set from the loading dock.

Paul.

Sorry Paul - you're quite right.  The third rod would have been for the point which led off the loop/goods shed road to the back siding as it was further from the box than the other worked points.

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

A fouling bar carries out a very different task and would normally be found in the vicinity of the trailing end of a point.  Its purpose was to indicate - by inability to move the lever which operated it or by an electrical indicator (if it was an electric depression bar) - that something was standing foul of the point on a particular route out of it and thus lock the point and/or signals to prevent a movement being set up that would pass the place which was fouled.  Fouling bars were generally used where visibility of a critical point was not very good and movements were likely to be made in quick succession over different routes.  As such, certainly on the GWR, they were not particularly common whereas point lock(ing) bars would at one time be found on every facing point on a passenger line.

Thanks Mike. That’s a much clearer explanation than the the one in the book, two pages on from the diagram you photo’d.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Thanks Mike. That’s a much clearer explanation than the the one in the book, two pages on from the diagram you photo’d.

Thanks Phil - I'm glad it made sense.   Actually on checking I find it's on the opposite page to that drawing in the 1937 version which I have (not that I've ever read that page).  My copy includes an original GWR 'with compliments' slip and as that is in French I presume this particular copy never saw much use on a training course.

[Andy Keane]

Started repainting the bricks on the loco shed red after seeing the colour photo - I think the original yellow may even be helping get the pointing better.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

All my Peco code 75 has arrived for the fiddle yard so I am getting rather over excited! I am next looking at DCC systems and think I will import a CabControl system from the US. With help from Ron Ron Ron and GoingUnderground I have pretty much decided to go that way. There seems to be only one other RMWeb user doing it like that and so I will double the take-up! Not sure if its entirely wise but I am hooked - we shall see.

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

There seems to be only one other RMWeb user doing it

That would ring an alarm bell for me!

[Andy Keane]

Just now, St Enodoc said:

That would ring an alarm bell for me!

Yes it does for me too! Being out there like that when there are over 25,000 users NOT doing this does scare me. But I do love what it seems to offer and Ron and Keith are being very supportive (though neither have that exact system). But as my wife likes to say "in the end it is only money"! I may be poorer and wiser before the year is out.

Andy

[Regularity]

What system is it?

[Andy Keane]

Its the ESU CabControl system, see http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/cabcontrol/

This is a development of their ECoS and remote hand set technology but which is much less costly than the full ECoS system.

[Regularity]

Thanks.

 A friend in Canada uses that: likes it very much.

 

Similar to the Piko: https://www.petersspares.com/piko-55040-smartcontrol-digital-starter-set-dcc-controller.ir

[Andy Keane]

yes but the Piko is apparently no longer available

Andy

[Regularity]

Ah. Interesting: I always assumed it was offered to markets not reached by ESU for that product. Maybe things will change?

[Andy Keane]

While pottering at the loco shed paintwork (I find about 30 minutes is all I can do in one go) and musing on controllers such as ECoS and CabControl I am also thinking about the wiring beneath the boards. I will do my experimenting on the fiddle yard for this since it is more complex and also does not need to be quite so tidy above board level. This is the schematic (not true scale) for the fiddle yard where the green O's are Merg current occupancy sensors, the pink S's are laser or magnetic position sensors and the blue D's are Kadee electromagnetic decouplers:

 

So when I think about wiring this all up there is a shed load of sensor info to deal with and I think running a wire plus common ground for each one is a bit heavy handed, especially as the yard is on two boards that need to seperate and stack for storage which would lead to a complex plug / socket at the interface. Does anyone have any experince of better ways to do this? Is there a sensible databus that I could use? Or should I just localise things on a per board basis. I am looking both for mimic panel support and also ABC in the yard.

regards

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[5BarVT]

On 19/07/2021 at 13:14, Andy Keane said:

I will do my experimenting on the fiddle yard for this since it is more complex and also does not need to be quite so tidy above board level.

Good move.

On 19/07/2021 at 13:14, Andy Keane said:

So when I think about wiring this all up there is a shed load of sensor info to deal with and I think running a wire plus common ground for each one is a bit heavy handed, especially as the yard is on two boards that need to seperate and stack for storage which would lead to a complex plug / socket at the interface. Does anyone have any experince of better ways to do this? Is there a sensible databus that I could use? Or should I just localise things on a per board basis. I am looking both for mimic panel support and also ABC in the yard.

Databus is the way forward.  If everything is on one board including mimic then you might get away with direct wiring.  As soon as your taking a lot of connections across board joins databus makes a lot of sense.  Possibly more expensive but a lot less tedious (unless you find wiring 25way D plugs therapeutic).  It cost to get data onto the bus and off it again, but once it’s there you can use it anywhere.

 

So, onto what sort of bus. (This may make your brain hurt.)  As ever, it depends what you want to do with it: if it’s just to drive a mimic then any bus will do.

You mention ABC and uncouplers.  I don’t do ABC because I’m into automation systems, but from a quick read, ABC seems fine for stopping a train and can be used to shuttle too, but when it comes to uncouple (kadee shuffle) and run round and then set off again, I don’t know how successful it will be.  I think that in essence, you will be designing a hard wired system to do one single repetitive task.

 

On that basis, I would recommend a bus that is compatible with at least one automatic operation system (e.g. TrainController or iTrain) so that you have the option of moving to that if you find you want/need to in future.  (That may rule out MERG CBus.)  If you go for an automated system approach you will also need a DCC system that has a computer interface and is compatible with the automation software.  The data bus and DCC control bus don’t have to be the same, but if different, will need two separate computer interfaces and may cause a jump to a higher priced version of the software.

 

There are more options now than when I was making these decisions.  I went for Loconet and a digitrax command station, that way, a single computer interface works for both, and they are compatible with Traincontroller, which at the time was the only software that did what I thought I wanted.   For I/O I use RR cirkits SSB cards which I like, but there are Arduino sketches out there for loconet I/o - depends whether you prefer to make or buy.

 

Does your brain hurt yet?

 

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

31 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Good move.

Databus is the way forward.  If everything is on one board including mimic then you might get away with direct wiring.  As soon as your taking a lot of connections across board joins databus makes a lot of sense.  Possibly more expensive but a lot less tedious (unless you find wiring 25way D plugs therapeutic).  It cost to get data onto the bus and off it again, but once it’s there you can use it anywhere.

 

So, onto what sort of bus. (This may make your brain hurt.)  As ever, it depends what you want to do with it: if it’s just to drive a mimic then any bus will do.

You mention ABC and uncouplers.  I don’t do ABC because I’m into automation systems, but from a quick read, ABC seems fine for stopping a train and can be used to shuttle too, but when it comes to uncouple (kadee shuffle) and run round and then set off again, I don’t know how successful it will be.  I think that in essence, you will be designing a hard wired system to do one single repetitive task.

 

On that basis, I would recommend a bus that is compatible with at least one automatic operation system (e.g. TrainController or iTrain) so that you have the option of moving to that if you find you want/need to in future.  (That may rule out MERG CBus.)  If you go for an automated system approach you will also need a DCC system that has a computer interface and is compatible with the automation software.  The data bus and DCC control bus don’t have to be the same, but if different, will need two separate computer interfaces and may cause a jump to a higher priced version of the software.

 

There are more options now than when I was making these decisions.  I went for Loconet and a digitrax command station, that way, a single computer interface works for both, and they are compatible with Traincontroller, which at the time was the only software that did what I thought I wanted.   For I/O I use RR cirkits SSB cards which I like, but there are Arduino sketches out there for loconet I/o - depends whether you prefer to make or buy.

 

Does your brain hurt yet?

 

Paul.

Paul

yes it is starting a gentle throb. At the moment I think I may try and simply get a train to enter the yard, stop, uncouple, reverse to a known point, and then move the loco off to storage leaving the stock behind and see how I get on with that. I think I can do this with DCC Concepts ABC and their zen decoders. That may suffice to start. I might then look at a seperate shuttle process to bring a loco from store and couple to the stock and head off to  Helston as a seperate move. Again using DCC Concepts ABC and zen. Then I would initiate these by setting routes, either with diode arrays or something like ECoS. I could go all in on arduino and I use them a lot at work but the JMRI stuff seems to be in hiatus with no clear development path so I think best avoided.

regards

Andy

ps - did I  get the signal diagram correct for 1956?

[5BarVT]

On 10/07/2021 at 20:30, Andy Keane said:

Paul

This is my attempt at interpreting your table. Please let me know what and where I have gotten it wrong! I am sure I have not understood disc 7 - you have it listed as Disc Main to Engine Spur but it looks like the run around up release on the diagram. Its also the one you were questioning on the diagram. As before where I have used A and B I am assuming the one lever does both things, either directly or by the point driving the disk etc - is that OK?

thanks

Andy

 

Sorry for the delay and thanks for the prompt.

Not far off.  I’ve amended (as best I can with finger and iPad) the positions of the shunt signals to clarify where they apply.  To clarify, 7 reads from the platform line into what was then the carriage shed road, also used for running round.  10 reads back from the carriage shed road into the run round loop.

You are right about A and B, both operated by the same lever.  I don’t know if the point indicator ‘disc’ would have been numbered 10B or not (too young!).

Also (not that it really matters), in those days, points were labelled A and B by distance from the box, so 6A/B and 8A/B are the opposite way around.

Some points of interest:

In the 58 frame, 21 (the equivalent of 10 signal) read both ways and had some pretty fiendish locking.  That won’t have been the case in 56 as the type of frame couldn’t do that sort of locking.

In the 58 frame, the equivalent of 10 points were locked normal (i.e. towards the loop) before the signal into the platform could be cleared (to maintain trapping protection against the ‘carriage shed’ road which counted as a siding).  I see no reason why that would have been any different on the earlier frame too.

In the 1960 appendix is an instruction that when a train is being shunted over the points at the carriage shed end of the loop the loop an incoming train must be brought to a stand before being signalled into the platform.  Again I suspect also dating from some time earlier.

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

On 20/07/2021 at 20:47, 5BarVT said:

Sorry for the delay and thanks for the prompt.

Not far off.  I’ve amended (as best I can with finger and iPad) the positions of the shunt signals to clarify where they apply.  To clarify, 7 reads from the platform line into what was then the carriage shed road, also used for running round.  10 reads back from the carriage shed road into the run round loop.

You are right about A and B, both operated by the same lever.  I don’t know if the point indicator ‘disc’ would have been numbered 10B or not (too young!).

Also (not that it really matters), in those days, points were labelled A and B by distance from the box, so 6A/B and 8A/B are the opposite way around.

Some points of interest:

In the 58 frame, 21 (the equivalent of 10 signal) read both ways and had some pretty fiendish locking.  That won’t have been the case in 56 as the type of frame couldn’t do that sort of locking.

In the 58 frame, the equivalent of 10 points were locked normal (i.e. towards the loop) before the signal into the platform could be cleared (to maintain trapping protection against the ‘carriage shed’ road which counted as a siding).  I see no reason why that would have been any different on the earlier frame too.

In the 1960 appendix is an instruction that when a train is being shunted over the points at the carriage shed end of the loop the loop an incoming train must be brought to a stand before being signalled into the platform.  Again I suspect also dating from some time earlier.

Paul.

Paul

Many thanks for your marking of my homework - much appreciated.

So like this (I cannot read the detail on the little image from the signalling site about 7 and 10 but have done my best to follow your comments):

 

 

Interesting your notes about operation - would the signal box have had a set of instructions about movements printed out and on display somewhere do you think?

My plan is to have a copy of the above diagram with the frame I plan to build so if there should also be some notice to the signaller I should probably add that some place as well - maybe a note under where I have the ground signal notes (BTW do those notes read correctly?).

regards

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Many thanks for your marking of my homework

I chuckled at that: one of my daughters said that all I did at work was look at a computer and mark homework!

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Paul

Many thanks for your marking of my homework - much appreciated.

So like this (I cannot read the detail on the little image from the signalling site about 7 and 10 but have done my best to follow your comments):

 

Interesting your notes about operation - would the signal box have had a set of instructions about movements printed out and on display somewhere do you think?

My plan is to have a copy of the above diagram with the frame I plan to build so if there should also be some notice to the signaller I should probably add that some place as well - maybe a note under where I have the ground signal notes (BTW do those notes read correctly?).

regards

Andy

Don't 12/13 need to be in rear of the fouling point for 6B?

[The Stationmaster]

50 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Don't 12/13 need to be in rear of the fouling point for 6B?

No - their position on the diagram above doesn't  clearly represent what the actual situation was  as points 6B (as numbered above) was in rear of 12/13.  Thus 12/13 would lock 6 both ways 

 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

 

Interesting your notes about operation - would the signal box have had a set of instructions about movements printed out and on display somewhere do you think?

My plan is to have a copy of the above diagram with the frame I plan to build so if there should also be some notice to the signaller I should probably add that some place as well - maybe a note under where I have the ground signal notes (BTW do those notes read correctly?).

regards

Andy

No.  At a tiny place like this the Signalmen might have written out a simplifier showing train arrival and departure times (done that way to save having to look at the WTT) but they would in any case only pay any attention to it for the first week or two after a timetable change and from then on they would simply remember what was coming or going.  In fact in the 1950s I doubt they even bothered with that as the timetable was probably very little changed year after year with the only variation being a seasonal alteration for the summer (and of course any trains running on particular days).

 

All the moves would be done the way they had always done them - again learnt and remembered when learning the 'box - and the only variants which would interest them would be anything coming out on Weekly or Daily Notices about specials if cancellations or possibly strengthening vehicles needing to be added or removed or tail traffic.  But again fairly inevitably in the 1950s n most of that sort of thing was done in the way it had always been done at Helston.

 

The only information posted in the Signal Box Special Instructions (which I don't think could have been very long as there were few oddities but it would include the sort of thing Paul mentioned about the carriage siding points).   A gradient profile for the branch, certain On Call lists (and possibly some addresses particularly for PW staff for fogging etc duties); a list of overhead power lines crossing the railway; a list of codes for the circuit 'phone(s) - usually in a little glass fronted case; possibly the occasional union notice if there was alrge enough noticeboard to leave room for them - and that would be about the lot off the top of my head.  there might be an ambulance box but that was unlikely as the signal box was close to the station building; there might be a few detonators in the metal straps supporting the block shelf (such as it was - if there actually was one) but they wouldn't be there of the Signalmen (like many of their kind) were distrustful of what would come back if the PerWay were to 'borrow' any dets; one or two sets of furled flags in the flag stick holders fixed to the wall (they only needed red and green flags but there might be a yellow one kept should there be any need to flag the distant signal.   Somewhere - prbably a shelf high up above the windows ar the end away from the door there would be a pile of used Train register books because there was nowhere else to keep 5 years worth of the things.  a clock of some size or another, the Train Register Book desk and possibly a small table as well by the 1950s.  if they could getaway with it there would be an armchair, quite possibly homemade.

 

Unless the Signalmen were very lazy items the 'box interior would be very clean with lever handles shining, frame tread plates black-leaded, stove black leaded. lino shining g having being washed and polished regularly and possibly with newspaper on it to prevent anyone from outside coming in and walking on the polished surface (many Signalmen would normally wear slippers unless something involved them in going out - as  would token exchanges at Helston.  And of course a doormat, possibly one inside the door and one outside if they really cared about the floor.  In a really clean 'box the Signalmen wouldn't allow point clips t be kept upstairs - they had to go in the locking room underneath.

Edited July 20, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Good move.

Databus is the way forward.  If everything is on one board including mimic then you might get away with direct wiring.  As soon as your taking a lot of connections across board joins databus makes a lot of sense.  Possibly more expensive but a lot less tedious (unless you find wiring 25way D plugs therapeutic).  It cost to get data onto the bus and off it again, but once it’s there you can use it anywhere.

 

I agree with the general thrust of your comments, but I would point out that wiring D plugs is doing things the hard way if you really do want D connectors over a board joint.  You buy a factory made 25-way lead with a male plug at one end and female at the other.  You cut that in half, strip the cut ends and connect them to the two baseboards.  If the cable isn't colour coded, you might have to buzz out the individual wires to establish which is which, but there's no need to solder individual wires to the tiny pins of the D plugs.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I agree with the general thrust of your comments, but I would point out that wiring D plugs is doing things the hard way if you really do want D connectors over a board joint.  You buy a factory made 25-way lead with a male plug at one end and female at the other.  You cut that in half, strip the cut ends and connect them to the two baseboards.  If the cable isn't colour coded, you might have to buzz out the individual wires to establish which is which, but there's no need to solder individual wires to the tiny pins of the D plugs.

Good idea on pre-built cables - do you have a favourite supplier?

Andy

[Andy Keane]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No - their position on the diagram above doesn't  clearly represent what the actual situation was  as points 6B (as numbered above) was in rear of 12/13.  Thus 12/13 would lock 6 both ways 

 

No.  At a tiny place like this the Signalmen might have written out a simplifier showing train arrival and departure times (done that way to save having to look at the WTT) but they would in any case only pay any attention to it for the first week or two after a timetable change and from then on they would simply remember what was coming or going.  In fact in the 1950s I doubt they even bothered with that as the timetable was probably very little changed year after year with the only variation being a seasonal alteration for the summer (and of course any trains running on particular days).

 

All the moves would be done the way they had always done them - again learnt and remembered when learning the 'box - and the only variants which would interest them would be anything coming out on Weekly or Daily Notices about specials if cancellations or possibly strengthening vehicles needing to be added or removed or tail traffic.  But again fairly inevitably in the 1950s n most of that sort of thing was done in the way it had always been done at Helston.

 

The only information posted in the Signal Box Special Instructions (which I don't think could have been very long as there were few oddities but it would include the sort of thing Paul mentioned about the carriage siding points).   A gradient profile for the branch, certain On Call lists (and possibly some addresses particularly for PW staff for fogging etc duties); a list of overhead power lines crossing the railway; a list of codes for the circuit 'phone(s) - usually in a little glass fronted case; possibly the occasional union notice if there was alrge enough noticeboard to leave room for them - and that would be about the lot off the top of my head.  there might be an ambulance box but that was unlikely as the signal box was close to the station building; there might be a few detonators in the metal straps supporting the block shelf (such as it was - if there actually was one) but they wouldn't be there of the Signalmen (like many of their kind) were distrustful of what would come back if the PerWay were to 'borrow' any dets; one or two sets of furled flags in the flag stick holders fixed to the wall (they only needed red and green flags but there might be a yellow one kept should there be any need to flag the distant signal.   Somewhere - prbably a shelf high up above the windows ar the end away from the door there would be a pile of used Train register books because there was nowhere else to keep 5 years worth of the things.  a clock of some size or another, the Train Register Book desk and possibly a small table as well by the 1950s.  if they could getaway with it there would be an armchair, quite possibly homemade.

 

Unless the Signalmen were very lazy items the 'box interior would be very clean with lever handles shining, frame tread plates black-leaded, stove black leaded. lino shining g having being washed and polished regularly and possibly with newspaper on it to prevent anyone from outside coming in and walking on the polished surface (many Signalmen would normally wear slippers unless something involved them in going out - as  would token exchanges at Helston.  And of course a doormat, possibly one inside the door and one outside if they really cared about the floor.  In a really clean 'box the Signalmen wouldn't allow point clips t be kept upstairs - they had to go in the locking room underneath.

many thanks for this - it really helps set the scene for the 'box I hope to build - though no doubt it will not have floor mats!

[5BarVT]

15 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Don't 12/13 need to be in rear of the fouling point for 6B?

 

14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No - their position on the diagram above doesn't  clearly represent what the actual situation was  as points 6B (as numbered above) was in rear of 12/13.  Thus 12/13 would lock 6 both ways 

Andy’s diagram is more correct than one might think!  6B ran under the bridge with the toes roughly in line with the ‘far’ side of the bridge.

12/13 on the ‘near’ side of the bridge for sighting purposes, but as Mike says, for interlocking purposes considered ‘beyond’ the points so locking 6 both ways.

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

 

Andy’s diagram is more correct than one might think!  6B ran under the bridge with the toes roughly in line with the ‘far’ side of the bridge.

12/13 on the ‘near’ side of the bridge for sighting purposes, but as Mike says, for interlocking purposes considered ‘beyond’ the points so locking 6 both ways.

Paul.

I have a photo taken through the bridge hole that makes this more obvious which is why I drew it that way and why I plan to model it like that!

Andy