Climate Change - Household Pets are a bigger problem than you may imagine.

[Nick C]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

Unfortunately there seems to be a trend to reject anything as being worth having if it doesn't tick the "efficiency" box or make money. I greatly fear a push towards an bleak, sterile, massively "efficient" world. Some moves in that direction are a necessary evil but it's rapidly becoming less and less like a world I want to live in.

Agreed. Why, for example, are we not seeing a huge backlash against the idea that you should replace your phone every two years? Hugely wasteful, most will happily last for 5 at least, but of course big corporations profit from selling new. Why are we not seeing outrage against the fact that over 1/3 of all the food produced is wasted? (Incidentally, a lot of pet food is made from meat that's considered not suitable for human consumption, so would be wasted otherwise)

[eastglosmog]

Some time ago, I remember reading that the thing you want to ban to reduce our carbon footprint is children, they generate far more CO2 than cats and dogs over their lifetime.

Anyway, my cat may now be retired, but in her younger days she ran the most ecological rodent control service available, far less CO2 generated than the "Rentokil" alternative!

[Jonboy]

To echo a much earlier comment if it wasn’t for the need to care for the cats, my wife and I would likely have traveled much more often and far further over their lifetime. 
 

I just wish we could train them to s*&£ in other peoples gardens rather than keep buying litter that has all the extra carbon footprint of being produced, transported, retailed and disposed of...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Cats need no training to s**t in other people's gardens. It's in their DNA.

[woodenhead]

Let's blame the animals for our CO2 problems, global warming and while we're at it diseases.

 

It's great when you can blame others for things, takes the focus away from us.

 

The world regulates itself, Darwinism/Mother Nature call it what you like but the ecosystem is self maintaining.

 

The problem the world has is one animal, humans, we developed our brain to become the super predator, we're the only animal that makes it's own food that it can store for months, years to keep ourselves going, we use tools, we use machinery and above all we think we can beat Mother Nature and dominate everything.

 

Global Warming is the consequence of that, as is Covid, our own selfish superiority being our downfall.

[The Stationmaster]

As far as Britain is concerned CO2 emissions are more than anything else driven by population growth and the things all the extra people do.  For example I eat probably rather less meat than I did 50 years ago so my contribution in respect of animal emissions has declined but there are now more people eating meat in Britain than there were then.  My current car produces far less CO2 than the car I owned 50 years ago - but there are now more cars on the roads than there were then because there are more people to own and drive cars.  

 

50 years ago civil airliners passing overhead or nearby were a comparatively rare sight/sound notwithstanding that we live in reasonable proximity to two main air routes.  Prior to the pandemic you could at some times of day count the interval between successive aircraft going in the same direction as no more than 2 minutes - and there were others simultaneously passing those but at different altitudes and headings.  Fortunately the pandemic has changed that out of all recognition and not only is the air clearer but we can actually hear the birs singing for most of the day.

 

50 years ago most of the vegetables we ate came from either a local market garden or  had come via the  London market shaving been grown elsewhere in Britain and all the milk sold locally was produced locally.  Vegetables now come from all over the place including Africa (by air), the local market gardens that once existed are now under concrete/housing, and instead of four dairy farms within barely four miles of where we live there nowadays  isn't a dairy cow within 10-15 miles.  All down to extra people and changes to the economy and land being taken from food production to use it for something else. Most of what was once land for dairy cattle is now used for crops - ranging from wheat & barley through rape to poppies for drug extraction, regrettably even sugar beet cropping has declined due to barmy political notions.

 

Compared to all that change the fact that we have two cats who mainly eat food made from factory leftovers from processing meat for human consumption (which would otherwise go to landfill) is taking us to the kafkaesque comparisons in looking at sources of CO2 and the production of waste products.  We could get far larger ecological savings from controlling artificial population growth (probably something ofa political area) and by drastically slashing food miles by reinvigorating more local/national production (something which would be very hard to argue with in my opinion).

[APOLLO]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

Unfortunately there seems to be a trend to reject anything as being worth having if it doesn't tick the "efficiency" box or make money. I greatly fear a push towards an bleak, sterile, massively "efficient" world. Some moves in that direction are a necessary evil but it's rapidly becoming less and less like a world I want to live in.

 

My thoughts also. Many unqualified, unexperienced, and utterly inane people are jumping on the climate change / green bandwagon these days (Dare I mention politicians and "celebrities" ?).

 

A world without pets as they are "not green"

A world where you are constantly monitored, told what to do, when and where, 

A world of travel restrictions - long distance travel for the rich / elite only. Cars getting that way too (Average cost of EV is £44000 I read)

A world of **** public transport (UK)

A world without meat and other dairy products being freely available.

A world of very expensive energy (mostly electricity) which will be rationed by demand / price (Smart meters)

A world (well the UK) without affordable home heating (Natural Gas).

A world where lots of people will be not be able to afford to heat their home

 

I could go on --------

 

On the last point, UK Natural Gas, on the  evening of 23 April 2021 over 50% of our electricity was generated by Natural Gas. Where is this 50% increase in generation capacity to come from when the wind don't blow etc ? (and not counting in additional generation requirements for more EV's etc)

 

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?period=7-days&start=2021-04-17&&_k=ibxkc3

 

Laws are coming in to restrict Natural Gas use (no new build gas in homes in a couple of years), no replacement domestic boilers etc mooted after 2030 or so. The system I helped build throughout my career starting in 1969 is up for sale by The National Grid - They have sold all the nations gas distribution networks over the last few years, now the former Jewel in the Crown, The gas transmission system is coming up for disposal, they see the writing on the wall for natural gas

 

Green AFFORDABLE alternatives to gas ? None whatsoever I'm afraid. Gas is just under 3p / Kilowatt Hour (the average cost of gas in the UK). Electricity averages 14.37p / KWH

 

I worry for my children, 

 

Brit15

 

[woodenhead]

And some of that gas comes from Russia - we do need to be self sufficient when it comes to power.

 

The latest thoughts are that Hydrogen replaces gas.

[Ozexpatriate]

29 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The latest thoughts are that Hydrogen replaces gas.

Massive scale Hydrogen production using solar power and seawater could make a radical difference. For the least negative impact, it is best located in a lower latitude desert close to the ocean.

[APOLLO]

Hydrogen is more of a system of energy storage / transportation since it takes more energy (electricity) to manufacture hydrogen than it yields. Lots of development work is being done in this area, indeed the old Towns gas made from coal had a fair % of hydrogen.

 

I cannot see hydrogen replacing natural gas (methane) in all our national pipework systems (thinking of 1000 psi 48" dia transmission pipes etc) - just not viable in terms of electricity required. Probably some low / medium pressure urban networks may run on hydrogen, or more likely a blend / mix of manufactured hydrogen and natural gas. 

 

Some info - new tech for me, not even on the radar when I retired.

 

https://www.h2-view.com/story/uk-village-to-be-first-to-be-powered-by-hydrogen-on-public-gas-network/

 

https://cadentgas.com/news-media/news/january-2020/hydeploy-hydrogen-project-reaching-20-blend

 

I'm not a climate change denier (though I think it's a bit over egged) - the plain and simple fact is we (especially the UK) are running out of oil and gas fast. We DO need green alternatives. Severn / Morecambe bay barrages etc. But the NIMBYS won't let these be built.

 

Brit15

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

The big problem with a lot of what is being talked about is that it needs electricity - ground source heat pumps are powered by electricity, electric cars need to be recharged using electricity, lighting needs electricity, electric arc fi urnaces for steel production need electricity - and so on.  Which raises one very interesting, and seemingly totally ignored, question - where will the electricity come from?

 

If 'somebody' was really serious about using electricity for just about everything there would be a huge programme in Britain to create steady source, reliable electricity supplies - but there isn't.  Having seen most of Britain's p offshore wind farms over the past 4 -5 years the most noticeable thing about them, whatever teh weather, was that far more weren't working than were - if there was some wind it was usually at the wrong speed for the turbines, i.e. too little or too much.  Wave/tidal power is virtually non-existent in Britain as is hydro-electriv c power geberation and none of these schemes or ideas seem to be advancing at any sort of recognisable pace let alone breaking through to give steady supply.

 

Solar farms use land which should be used to grow food - you can't put really reliable solar farms in areas that aren't so useful for agriculture.  Household a solar panels area great if dea - we've got them - but they don't work in the dark when you need to power your light (or your ground source heat pump).  This town - population c11,600, 5,200 households - has six electric car charging points and 16 fuel pumps.  only 840 households don't have any car at all but that is more than made up by those with more than one car - so where will 5,000+ cars get a recharge overnight?  I don't know about a power source but all the electricity supply would need major strengthening.

 

What s being talked about to happen within a decade is total nonsense - the country simply won't have enough electricity available nor the means to distribute it.

[idd15]

UK Energy Sources - EV Meltdown?

 

This video is a little dry in its presentation but does address many of the concerns of the last post.

 

As is so often missed by so many there have been huge reductions in energy consumption driven by more efficient appliances, street lighting etc. The next few years are going to be challenging, but not impossible.

idd

 

 

[Railpassion]

@Thestationmaster Yes, the first challenge is insulation of every home to drive down energy usage. Hydrogen has a place but only in industrial processes where scale makes sense. Its use in transport will be marginal. Heat pumps may make more sense if local or district heating were tried. 

 

As for pets - these days there's an entire industry built around them. When I was a child we fed the dog on scraps and lamb's hearts from the local butcher with other nutrients mixed in. He was fit and happy and brought a lot of joy. He cost little to keep and kept us healthy with two walks a day. 

Now I visit people and see so many bloated fat dogs riddled with arthritis and a list of vet's bills as long as your arm. 

Their owners buy SUVs to carry the dog and a whole load of clobber including cages, enormous beds, plastic dog baskets and more. 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Railpassion
Apostrophe

[Dagworth]

45 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The big problem with a lot of what is being talked about is that it needs electricity - ground source heat pumps are powered by electricity, electric cars need to be recharged using electricity, lighting needs electricity, electric arc fi urnaces for steel production need electricity - and so on.  Which raises one very interesting, and seemingly totally ignored, question - where will the electricity come from?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/25/insanely-cheap-energy-how-solar-power-continues-to-shock-the-world

[The Stationmaster]

Ah yes - but.  Does anyone actually know the load electric car recharging will place on the national grid?  Apparently not.  so if you don't know what teh demand is going top be how do you plan to satisfy that demend and indeed what has anybody actually planned and promoted to satisfy that demand?   Wind farms aren't much use. because the energy they supply is not rewliable, solar power doesn't supply much energy unless you have a massive number of panels and they will take up space - plus of course they supply dc power which needs an inverter to convert it to the ac used in the UK national supply.

 

All very simpel questions which need very simple answers which should be at the fingertips of anybody promoting any of the additional uses of electricity currently being intended, not just talked about, to be come legal requirements in the UK in the next decade or so.  has anybody (apart from me) actually costed how much it costs to install a ground source heating system?  I looked at it very seriously, as one of several options,  When we built our house and the costs were way off affordable even when the ground work involved was effectively there for free - I'd have gne for it if I could afforded it but I couldn't - a gas boiler was massively cheaper to install and probably less expensive to run.  our house was built to the insulation standards which applied when it was built (they are little different now) and our leakage test results were actually ona par with a well insulated triple glazed Scabdinavian house although we are only double glazed.  But again we come back to not only can peiple afford to do these things but whether or not their property is actuallu y suitable.

 

Our neighbours have just sold their house - for well over £1 million - but it is Edwardian and is only of single skin brick construction plus it has an untanked cellar - it costs a mint to heat despite being double glazed and the skgle skin brick construction is not atypical of a quite a number of houses in this town.  what do you do with a house like that and who pays for it?

 

Sorry but there are an awful lot of intentions being floated around with seemingly very little thought about the practical consequences of what they involve.

[idd15]

A more succinct answer can be found here from the people who should know:

 

National Grid

 

The key to renewables is storage, and a considerable amount of grid scale storage is in place with more going on line all the time.

 

You can even do it yourself and kick a hole in your bills:

EVM Man

 

idd

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Classsix T]

On 22/04/2021 at 23:07, 'CHARD said:

Were this true, we could no doubt sort it out with a drive to cut our own consumption of meat, but clearly that's far too impalatable to the general public. 

Selectively quoting 'Chard's post because it was the first to mention it, but in no way a criticism of that fine gentleman, this one is usually one of the first carbon crimes aired in any discussion of the topic.

I'm afraid that whilst countries like the USA continue to discard somewhere around half of the food they produce, I shall be a stalwart for the minimisation of waste throughout the chain before I even entertain asking people to go without at all.

 

Responsible production of foodstuffs is something that must be dealt with. Proper soil and livestock management practices, not for maximisation of yeild short term but proper understanding of the benefits of a sustainable biology.

 

I'd suggest breaking up Big Agri conglomerates as one first step, but that'd be the radical pinko in me...

 

C6T. 

 

 

[AndyID]

Couple of points:

 

The batteries in EVs can be charged "off peak" which means they do not have to strain the distribution system. They also help to maintain constant load on the system which makes generation more efficient.

 

The idle wind turbines you often see have nowhere to send their power. What they should be doing is electrolysing hydrogen from water which can be stored and converted back into electric power in fuel cells both stationary and mobile.

 

The problem is more to do with storage and distribution than raw generation. Of course efficient use is very important too and there are lots of opportunities for that.

[Railpassion]

It's not just pets but the general trend of commodification across the developed world. The intent is to turn us from citizens into consumers served by globalised giants who can deliver our 'choices'. It's an attempt to make us define ourselves solely in terms of consumerism in order to monetise every part of life. 

You can see this in garden furniture where the trends are to encourage not a healthy and peaceful life in the garden but to replicate the sofa lifestyle of indoors in outdoor rooms. Barbecues, fire pits, pizza ovens and a whole range of huge three piece suites in the latest grey plastic complete with garden lighting, tables, steel canopies and shelves are filling our gardens with expensive tat that will end up in landfill within a few seasons. 

Gone are the days of taking out a cushion to an old iron table and chairs and admiring the wisteria. 

[Reorte]

Rather than coming up with more ways of coping with renewables I'd rather we just went down the nuclear route, whilst investing a great deal more in to fusion. Large-scale wind and solar should only be seen as a stopgap measure.

 

[APOLLO]

One things for sure folks, you won't be getting any "green" (or otherwise) electricity for under 3 pence / KWH (average price for UK gas), anywhere, anytime.

 

Have fun !!!

 

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by APOLLO

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Solar farms use land which should be used to grow food - you can't put really reliable solar farms in areas that aren't so useful for agriculture.  Household a solar panels area great if dea - we've got them - but they don't work in the dark when you need to power your light (or your ground source heat pump).  

The best thing to do with solar panels is to stick them on the roofs of buildings. An acquaintance of mine worked out that if you covered the various warehouses etc in our town with panels, it'd provide more than enough juice for the whole town - he even worked out all the funding needed etc, but of course the council didn't want to know, not enough profit in it for them...

[Reorte]

8 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The best thing to do with solar panels is to stick them on the roofs of buildings. An acquaintance of mine worked out that if you covered the various warehouses etc in our town with panels, it'd provide more than enough juice for the whole town - he even worked out all the funding needed etc, but of course the council didn't want to know, not enough profit in it for them...

All those tin shed buildings that have sprouted like toadstools everywhere over the last couple of decades do seem good candidates for them. Existing ones presumably won't be designed to take the weight though, and I believe the fire brigade isn't happy about solar panels on roofs (can't stop them generating in an emergency). I assume both issues can be designed around for new but might limit retrofitting.

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The best thing to do with solar panels is to stick them on the roofs of buildings. An acquaintance of mine worked out that if you covered the various warehouses etc in our town with panels, it'd provide more than enough juice for the whole town - he even worked out all the funding needed etc, but of course the council didn't want to know, not enough profit in it for them...

 

Your friend might find other councils that would be keen to invest. They get cheap loans from UK Govt so such schemes can be very profitable for them.

 

One place that we should certainly put panels is car parks. A win-win. Shelter for the car in sunny weather and electricity to supply to car batteries.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ah yes - but.  Does anyone actually know the load electric car recharging will place on the national grid?  Apparently not.  so if you don't know what teh demand is going top be how do you plan to satisfy that demend and indeed what has anybody actually planned and promoted to satisfy that demand?   Wind farms aren't much use. because the energy they supply is not rewliable, solar power doesn't supply much energy unless you have a massive number of panels and they will take up space - plus of course they supply dc power which needs an inverter to convert it to the ac used in the UK national supply.

 

All very simpel questions which need very simple answers which should be at the fingertips of anybody promoting any of the additional uses of electricity currently being intended, not just talked about, to be come legal requirements in the UK in the next decade or so.  has anybody (apart from me) actually costed how much it costs to install a ground source heating system?  I looked at it very seriously, as one of several options,  When we built our house and the costs were way off affordable even when the ground work involved was effectively there for free - I'd have gne for it if I could afforded it but I couldn't - a gas boiler was massively cheaper to install and probably less expensive to run.  our house was built to the insulation standards which applied when it was built (they are little different now) and our leakage test results were actually ona par with a well insulated triple glazed Scabdinavian house although we are only double glazed.  But again we come back to not only can peiple afford to do these things but whether or not their property is actuallu y suitable.

 

Our neighbours have just sold their house - for well over £1 million - but it is Edwardian and is only of single skin brick construction plus it has an untanked cellar - it costs a mint to heat despite being double glazed and the skgle skin brick construction is not atypical of a quite a number of houses in this town.  what do you do with a house like that and who pays for it?

 

Sorry but there are an awful lot of intentions being floated around with seemingly very little thought about the practical consequences of what they involve.

 

To misquote Tony Blair: Insulation, insulation, insulation.

 

Much better not to use energy (or, more correctly, make good use of the natural heat in the house) at all than find interesting ways to generate it.