Self-driving cars?

[EddieB]

From the depths of daftness ("smart" motorways, anyone?) comes this news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56906145

 

The plan is to allow "driverless" technology to be used on motorways, with vehicles limited to a top speed of 60kph (37mph).  Honestly, there's a reason why mopeds, mobility scooters etc. are banned from motorways, as having such speed-limited vehicles presents a danger to themselves and other road users.

 

How such vehicles would co-exist with lorries driven at 56mph and "normal" traffic at 70mph hardly bears thinking about.

 

The question is who is behind the lobbying for their acceptance, and who is likely to be in the money - apart from undertakers (in both senses) and lawyers?

[Nick C]

No mention of motorways in that article, that I can see? <60kph to me implies urban roads - i.e. precicely the places you need drivers to be concentrating the most.

[EddieB]

1 minute ago, Nick C said:

No mention of motorways in that article, that I can see? <60kph to me implies urban roads - i.e. precicely the places you need drivers to be concentrating the most.

The motorway part was a comment by Grant Shapps on LBC radio this morning.  See also here: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uk-government-green-lights-self-driving-cars-motorways-2021-04-27/

 

The government said the use of ALKS would be restricted to motorways, at speeds under 37 miles (60 km) per hour.

[MJI]

I am going to send one to Duncansby Head and another to Lands End

 

From XKCD

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by MJI

[Reorte]

19 minutes ago, EddieB said:

The motorway part was a comment by Grant Shapps on LBC radio this morning.  See also here: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uk-government-green-lights-self-driving-cars-motorways-2021-04-27/

 

The government said the use of ALKS would be restricted to motorways, at speeds under 37 miles (60 km) per hour.

 

I must be missing something there because that certainly isn't an acceptable speed for motorway driving. Is the idea to just let it operate in traffic jams, where the risk of serious outcome from a collision is low?

 

From a risk perspective low speed is a good starting point (less severe outcome if things go wrong), and motorways are a good starting point (most controlled roads with the fewest variations to deal with), but the two don't go together.

[black and decker boy]

Some cars are already fitted with this, to be legal you have to keep a hand on the wheel and get a DSD type reminder every few minutes.

 

I use mine on most journeys. It’s odd at first as the car steers itself round a bend at 70mph but you soon adjust. My car also brakes & accelerates automatically in traffic.

 

it cannot change lanes nor do junctions etc by itself (that’s a £5k upgrade IIRC).

 

whilst it being legal to not hold the wheel will be good, I certainly will not be watching films, sleeping nor changing seats. I want to be ready to take control if needed.

[Wheatley]

The idea on motorways is to use them in queuing traffic, ie when the vehicle cannot do more than 37mph even if you wanted to. Once the queue clears it's back to manual control. There is some logic to that, tailbacks tend to cause accidents in the tailback as people get bored of trundling along in first and start fiddling with the radio etc. 

 

Presumably, given the number of morons who already think it's ok to text at 70mph the only way that's going to work is if the car hands back control at 37mph automatically. 

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[StuAllen]

I’m hoping that the legislation is to allow its use in traffic jams / slow moving traffic rather than normal motorway speeds. Speaking from experience one of my most terrifying journeys was driving on the M6/M42 on a space saver spare wheel - I was limited to a maximum speed of 50mph - I was relying on cruise control to stay at a constant speed, the problem is most other drivers just aren’t paying attention and planning ahead, so weren’t expecting to come across a slower moving vehicle and didn’t know how to react at the last minute. Junctions were the worst. I couldn’t imagine being in a car travelling at <40mph when everything else it travelling at motorway speeds.

[Joseph_Pestell]

31 minutes ago, StuAllen said:

I’m hoping that the legislation is to allow its use in traffic jams / slow moving traffic rather than normal motorway speeds. Speaking from experience one of my most terrifying journeys was driving on the M6/M42 on a space saver spare wheel - I was limited to a maximum speed of 50mph - I was relying on cruise control to stay at a constant speed, the problem is most other drivers just aren’t paying attention and planning ahead, so weren’t expecting to come across a slower moving vehicle and didn’t know how to react at the last minute. Junctions were the worst. I couldn’t imagine being in a car travelling at <40mph when everything else it travelling at motorway speeds.

When I was a student in Bristol (40+ years ago), one of the local taxi firms boasted "radio-controlled cabs". A colleague commented that it might be better to have a driver.

After one Sunday evening trip from Temple Meads back to my flat, I cam to the conclusion that radio-controlled might have been safer. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, StuAllen said:

I couldn’t imagine being in a car travelling at <40mph when everything else it travelling at motorway speeds.

 

Many years ago I had the misfortune of being a rear seat passenger of the world's most inept Mini Metro pilot driving to Birmingham at 40mph. With an episode of 'oh I've dropped my cigarette can anyone see it?'. It was absolutely bloody terrifying.

[Nearholmer]

What does the system under discussion do that existing ones don't?

 

My modern, but fairly low-spec, car has lane assist which amounts to auto steering, although it gets all narky if you let go of the wheel completely for too long, auto engine stop, with auto re-start that activates in traffic jams, and a lowish-cost software upgrade gives what I would call "auto-creep", which shuffles one along in at a fixed distance behind the car in front.

 

Is it that the "auto-creep" speed ceiling is being lifted from whatever it is now to 60kph?

[black and decker boy]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

What does the system under discussion do that existing ones don't?

 

My modern, but fairly low-spec, car has lane assist which amounts to auto steering, although it gets all narky if you let go of the wheel completely for too long, auto engine stop, with auto re-start that activates in traffic jams, and a lowish-cost software upgrade gives what I would call "auto-creep", which shuffles one along in at a fixed distance behind the car in front.

 

Is it that the "auto-creep" speed ceiling is being lifted from whatever it is now to 60kph?

Jump in a Tesla and switch on autopilot - 70mph with the car doing all

the work. You only need to intervene to change lanes or take a junction.

 

Legally, you have to remain in contact with the wheel, technically you don’t. 
 

This is the level of system they are making legal so you then don’t need to hold the wheel.

[Nearholmer]

Ta.

 

Do Teslas have object detection that will spot something suddenly appearing in the path of the car?

 

 

[Ozexpatriate]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Do Teslas have object detection that will spot something suddenly appearing in the path of the car?

Yes.

 

This is the area of the greatest amount of work. 

 

There was an incident where a Tesla (with a 'supposedly' attentive* driver) hit a pedestrian walking a bicycle across a dark street with tragic consequences.

 

* who wasn't.

 

One of the biggest issues with object recognition AI is making determinations about objects in the road. Ethical considerations are factored in such as?

• Do you apply emergency braking (such that passengers might be injured) for a squirrel?
• Or a cat?
• Or a dog?
• Or a human? (Presumably yes)

One of the biggest misconceptions about autonomy is that it doesn't have to be "perfect" (that is impossible). It does have to be superior to humans. (Some claim it already is.)

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Ozexpatriate

[black and decker boy]

Just now, Nearholmer said:

Ta.

 

Do Teslas have object detection that will spot something suddenly appearing in the path of the car?

 

 

360 degree vision. It plots all vehicles, cones and traffic lights on the IPad display in real-time. It can judge distances to slow / accelerate in a line of vehicles and the lane assist allows it to self steer.

 

 

[black and decker boy]

2 minutes ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Yes.

 

This is the area of the greatest amount of work. 

 

There was an incident where a Tesla (with a 'supposedly' attentive driver) hit a pedestrian walking a bicycle across a dark street with tragic consequences.

 

It’s not perfect on local roads and I’d tend to not use it, dual carriageways & motorways are fine though .

 

local roads in U.K. can be of variable quality with no or faded white lines, no kerbs just grass verges, random kinks for new housing estate junctions etc or just Victorian era sharp narrow bends & hump back bridges.

 

I doubt California has such things to deal with in ‘beta’ testing. 

[Nearholmer]

This snippet from The Independent seems to sum-up what is intended quite neatly:

 

"The system - described by DfT as “traffic jam chauffeur technology” - is designed to constantly monitor speed and maintain a safe distance from other cars through the use of cameras and sensors.

 

If the system detects an “imminent collision risk”, it will initiate an “emergency manoeuvre” that could involve braking or a change of direction."

 

That is exactly what the upgrade for my car, which is a lot less clever than a Tesla, does, but that upgrade as it stands currently requires hands on the wheel, and is, I think, limited to a lower speed.

 

All rather sensibly incremental.

[Ozexpatriate]

2 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

local roads in U.K. can be of variable quality with no or faded white lines, no kerbs just grass verges, random kinks for new housing estate junctions etc or just Victorian era sharp narrow bends & hump back bridges.

Snow is an even bigger problem to solve.

 

2 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I doubt California has such things to deal with in ‘beta’ testing. 

The accident was in Arizona. The UK has more "non-uniform" roads in general, but there are non-uniform examples everywhere.

[black and decker boy]

3 minutes ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Snow is an even bigger problem to solve.

 

Indeed, the Tesla manual does actually say the the autopilot isn’t really an autopilot and is only intended for low speeds on straight roads in fine weather.

 

the cameras & sensors don’t like heavy rain / spray either

 

but who reads the manual???

[Ozexpatriate]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

All rather sensibly incremental.

All autonomy features are being rolled out incrementally. There is a system called ASIL (Automotive Safety Integrity Level) which codifies different levels of autonomy.

 

The feature you describe is marketed as 'adaptive cruise control' in the US. It is a widely deployed ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance System) feature in new vehicles. Others include lane management and emergency braking.

 

A friend has a Subaru with emergency braking. It works and possibly saved him from an accident.

 

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Automotive Safety Integrity Level

 

Aha! I've got some familiarity with SILs from their application in various railway and other control systems, so out of interest I shall do some digging to find-out how closely the automotive application of them compares.

 

Auto emergency braking certainly saved me from damaging my car and someone else's in a slow-speed incident-avoided. Finger's crossed that it never needs to activate in more severe circumstances.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

local roads in U.K. can be of variable quality with no or faded white lines, no kerbs just grass verges, random kinks for new housing estate junctions etc or just Victorian era sharp narrow bends & hump back bridges.

 

I doubt California has such things to deal with in ‘beta’ testing. 

IIRC one of things autopilot does is use shared telemetry from other Teslas to see how they or their drivers tackled any particular stretch of road.

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, StuAllen said:

I’m hoping that the legislation is to allow its use in traffic jams / slow moving traffic rather than normal motorway speeds. Speaking from experience one of my most terrifying journeys was driving on the M6/M42 on a space saver spare wheel - I was limited to a maximum speed of 50mph - I was relying on cruise control to stay at a constant speed, the problem is most other drivers just aren’t paying attention and planning ahead, so weren’t expecting to come across a slower moving vehicle and didn’t know how to react at the last minute. Junctions were the worst. I couldn’t imagine being in a car travelling at <40mph when everything else it travelling at motorway speeds.

Is it a good idea to drive on the motorway with a space saver spare wheel? Not saying that it's illegal, just asking whether it is poor practice to do so.

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Is it a good idea to drive on the motorway with a space saver spare wheel? Not saying that it's illegal, just asking whether it is poor practice to do so.

 

Space saver spare wheels are limited to 50mph.

 

So, yes, I would say it is poor practice. A car doing only 50mph on a motorway is a danger.