4 & 6 Wheel Carriages in Early Preservation Passenger Use?

[SimonLMoore]

Hi all, long time lurker, infrequent poster. The reason for the break in silence, I will soon be moving to somewhere with space enough to again think of building a model railway after many years in the wilderness. I'm planning to model early standard gauge preservation days in a freelance setting, something like a steam/railway centre. As inspiration I've been browsing early photos of Dinting, Steamton, Steamport and the early days of the KWVR, Lakeside & Haverthwaite and the Bluebell. I also have some early stockbooks/guides from some of these and noted an interesting point in the first KWVR stockbook which states that the 4 wheel carriages then on the line could not be used as passenger vehicles due to a ban on the use of 6 and 4 wheelers enforced by the Ministry of Transport, this being the early '70s.

 

Could anyone provide more detail on this? How did the use of brakevans as passenger carrying vehicles fit into this? Presumably it didn't apply to the narrow gauge and must have been lifted as a restriction on the standard gauge at some point. I'd much appreciate any further information anyone might have, obviously it may well influence my choice of rolling stock.

Edited May 24, 2021 by SimonLMoore

[sir douglas]

flame risk of the oil/gas lighting with wooden bodies?

[SimonLMoore]

Possibly so on both counts but the wording specifically notes 4 and 6 wheelers, rather than it being due to other details of construction or fittings.

[bécasse]

I doubt whether there was a general ban, the Isle of Wight Steam Railway currently operates 4-wheelers, for example.

 

What is more likely is that an Inspecting Officer hinted (in my experience they rarely gave an explicit view, other than "no", but were quite happy to suggest what might prove acceptable given the right conditions) that bogie stock was more likely to meet the requirements.

 

While there were plenty of 4 (and possibly 6) wheelers still around at the start of the preservation era, they were almost exclusively withdrawn service vehicles (or grounded bodies but that is another story), usually without working continuous brake equipment), and they would have been unacceptable without vast amounts of work (and IOs would probably have taken a lot of persuasion to pass wooden underframes even for occasional use - most if not all current day 4 wheelers are on steel underframes). There was a lot of redundant bogie stock around, much of it in fair condition, and that was a far better proposition for the limited funds that most preservation schemes had available in those days.

[Compound2632]

On 24/05/2021 at 16:16, SimonLMoore said:

a ban on the use of 6 and 4 wheelers enforced by the Ministry of Transport, this being the early '70s.

 

I'm sure the ban would have been directed primarily at main line use of such vehicles, motivated by some technical and / or safety considerations, with preservation schemes simply having to abide by the blanket application of a rule. But also, at that time, what preservation group had any useable four or six wheelers? The numbers available for use has gradually increased over the years as a result of painstaking restorations - vide @bécasse's comment which crossed with my posting.

 

A four or six wheeler on an original underframe is a more valuable historical artefact than one on a replacement steel underframe; there are a number of high-quality restorations of such vehicles that are in passenger use on heritage lines such as at Butterley and on the Isle of Wight.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

I have a recollection that the KESR used a LNWR/NLR 4W brake-third in passenger traffic in the early 1970s, painted in what looked a bit like GWR livery, but was in fact KESR original 1900s livery. Somewhere, I think I have a photo I took of it use at the time. It came in running order, if rather shabby, from Woolwich Arsenal, and sometime since the 1970s it has had a full resto - I rode in it a couple of years ago.

[Steamport Southport]

No ban as far as I know. However if it was someone like the K&WVR they probably had to comply with the Light Railway Order that was in force at the time.

 

At a lot of other sites such as steam centres such legal details didn't apply, so they could use brake vans.

 

The problem with any old carriages was they had usually been in departmental use or neglected for the last fifty odd years. Very few pre BR coaches lasted into the preservation era and most that did was in terrible condition. The SVR for example was snapping up any they could find, but it was mostly things like the last few LMS Portholes that was still available directly from BR.

 

 

You were also competing with the scrapman as they saw them as a cheap way to a few tons of good quality steel.

 

Many of those railway centres were using brake vans for rides as that was all that was available. Coaches were expensive and many of the railways were more desperately trying to save locomotives.

 

A big boon was the BR non corridor stock in the early 1970s. Then BR started selling the ordinary Mark 1s in number. Sobering to see the prices they were going for the other week. Over £35,000 each!

 

 

Jason

[MarkC]

The Tanfield still uses 4 wheelers - and possibly 6 wheelers too? (It's been a while since I visited, to my shame...)

[Zomboid]

I had a ride in a 6 wheeler at Quinton Road a few weeks ago.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, MarkC said:

The Tanfield still uses 4 wheelers

 

But the OP's question is not about the situation now but about the situation in the early days of preservation - in the 1970s. Was any preservation group using such carriages for passengers?

 

Answering my own question, I believe the Chasewater Railway was using its restored Maryport & Carlisle coach in the 1970s.

[Steamport Southport]

I wondering whether it was a case of the K&WVR planning to run a proper timetabled service?

 

That was the plan in the 1960s and 1970s. The reason they bought all those Railbuses, ironically four wheelers. I think they had about six of them at one point.

 

 

 

 

Photo "Our Phellap" via Wiki

[IWCR]

At Keighley I think a problem may have been that the station platform and track used was still BR in the early days.  

This may have precluded the use of 4 and 6 wheelers into the station if BR wasnt happy for their use.

Also as stated earlier there would be very few 4 / 6 wheelers about at that time in an acceptable condition for passenger use.

 

Pete

[MarkC]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But the OP's question is not about the situation now but about the situation in the early days of preservation - in the 1970s. Was any preservation group using such carriages for passengers?

 

Answering my own question, I believe the Chasewater Railway was using its restored Maryport & Carlisle coach in the 1970s.

M'yes, but the Tanfield started with them - and they're still in use

[Ben B]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I wondering whether it was a case of the K&WVR planning to run a proper timetabled service?

 

That was the plan in the 1960s and 1970s. The reason they bought all those Railbuses, ironically four wheelers. I think they had about six of them at one point.

 

 

 

 

Photo "Our Phellap" via Wiki

 

I think the KWVR only ever had a pair of W&M Railbus units for the proposed passenger service, and they still have them both   One in service, the other is in the Vintage Carriages Trust workshop at Ingrow stripped for a repair, I saw it the other week when I was there for a job interview.  They picked up a 108 DMU in the 1990's (it's undergoing long-term restoration at the mo), a class 101 which is having lighter repair work done as it isn't really suitable for use right now, and they picked up a Pacer last year, one of the many the railway was storing for Northern when the first lockdown was on.

 

To get back on topic, the KWVR is making great use at the moment of vintage carriages- suddenly, the need for compartment stock in these Covid times has seen them really come into their own.  I didn't manage to get a pic of them being hauled by S160 "Big Jim" last weekend (surely a candidate for the 'Prototype for Everything' thread!), but here they are being hauled by 2MT 78022 the weekend before;

 

 

Apologies for dragging the thread off the original topic- I'll have a look through some of the old Push&Pull magazines tomorrow if I get chance, see if there's anything about the early use of vintage carriages on the branch...

[Steamport Southport]

Probably just seemed like more.....    

 

Early train. Railbus appears my dad would say "wait for the proper train". Too late, me and my brother would already be on it scrambling for a decent seat. 

 

 

[2mm Andy]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Answering my own question, I believe the Chasewater Railway was using its restored Maryport & Carlisle coach in the 1970s.

Indeed, photos here;

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/95-chasewater-railway-museum-bits-pieces-21st-anniversary-edition-–-2/causeway-april-1971/

 

https://chasewaterrailwaymuseum.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/7176-13.jpg

 

Andy

 

[Johann Marsbar]

Quainton Road were certainly using these in May 1979.....

 

 

 

[Ben B]

6 hours ago, 2mm Andy said:

Indeed, photos here;

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/95-chasewater-railway-museum-bits-pieces-21st-anniversary-edition-–-2/causeway-april-1971/

 

https://chasewaterrailwaymuseum.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/7176-13.jpg

 

Andy

 

 

I love that second shot... Hornby could do something like that as a themed train set/train pack with a Peckett, one of their new generic coaches, and a Toad van

[Ed-farms]

19 hours ago, IWCR said:

At Keighley I think a problem may have been that the station platform and track used was still BR in the early days.  

This may have precluded the use of 4 and 6 wheelers into the station if BR wasnt happy for their use.

Also as stated earlier there would be very few 4 / 6 wheelers about at that time in an acceptable condition for passenger use.

 

Pete

 

I think this is the answer here, if you look at most photos of KWVR engines now  - look at Ben B's of 78022 a few posts up and most if not all engines carry BR overhead live wire signs. M ust be linked to the closeness of the main line and its wires

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Ed-farms said:

 

I think this is the answer here, if you look at most photos of KWVR engines now  - look at Ben B's of 78022 a few posts up and most if not all engines carry BR overhead live wire signs. M ust be linked to the closeness of the main line and its wires

 

The Airedale line was electrified in 1994, so that's clearly not relevant to the early days of the K&WVR.

[Ed-farms]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Airedale line was electrified in 1994, so that's clearly not relevant to the early days of the K&WVR.

 

I was using the electrification as a point that perhaps KWVR does things differently owing to the postiion of its track in relation to the national network. A quick look online shows most BR engiens carrying the flashes after the wires would have gone up - 47279, 41241, 43924 and 80002

[MrTea]

Hello @SimonLMoore,

I don’t have any early photos of 4 wheelers in use at the KWVR I’m afraid. But I do have a couple from the very early days of the nearby Embsay and Bolton Abbey Steam Railway. 
 

 

I think these were taken in about 1980. At this point the line only reached from Embsay station for about 1/2 mile westwards towards Skipton to the Bow Bridge loop at the junction of the line with the Grassington branch. 
 

 

However, I’m pretty certain that’s a 4-wheeler in passenger service along with a BR non-corridor coach and a brake van. 
 

If you can afford to wait, Rapido Trains are in the process of releasing a model of the Hunslet 16” saddle tank featured in the photos. 
 

Hope these are of use!

 

Ian

Edited June 1, 2021 by MrTea
Wrong size Hunslet

[Dava]

East Anglian Railway Museum at Chapel & Wakes Colne station used 4 & 6 wheel coaches for rides in the early 1970s.