What made Triang more successful than Hornby Dublo and Trix?

[Butler Henderson]

55 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Which all makes me wonder what did the Triang factory in Merton make? they had a factory next to the Merton Abbey line which ran from Tooting Junction to Wimbledon. The Triang factory had a couple of sidings AND Triang containers that appeared in the Triang Trains catalogue.

 

Maybe they used to make tinplate toys there? The whole site has now disappeared under a new trading estate and the Merton relief road. If you get the 93 bus from Wimbledon you can still see the bump in the road where the road used to cross the railway, about 500m before the tramway bridge.

 

Pat Hammond in The Story of Rovex Vol 1 explains the Merton site was developed by Lines Bros Ltd ; the implication is that wooden products were made originally . Pedigree Soft Toys was established there in 1938  and also a 1:42 series of clockwork toys which became the Minic range were manufactured since before the war. International Model Aircraft Co Ltd took over the Pedigree soft toys and plastic dolls in 1948 and it became the groups centre for injection moulding and  a development department. Most of the Triang operating accessories were designed there along with the first Transcontinental models.

[railroadbill]

On 24/06/2021 at 15:05, Il Grifone said:

 

I'm not sure if the Deltic bogie was a standard H0 component, but their DSB MZ diesel uses something of similar design.

Got a Lima Deltic and MZ  (plus a spare bogie) and indeed the power bogie has same wheel base and (small) wheel diameter.  So looks like it was the HO design. When I measured the Lima Deltic body, I found that it wasn't as shortened as I thought it was, so it doesn't look too bad and comes out for a run from time to time.

 

Which is getting away from Triang vs Hornby... once you got a Hornby 3R set, you were locked into that manufacturer's way of doing things, same with Triang 2R but then 2R was the way ahead.  Dublo 2R split the brand, might as well buy more Triang for the same money when selling up the 3R to buy 2R stuff.

With better plastics etc. 2R was the way to go, to the current situation where lots of manufacturers products will run on the same track.  No longer tied to one manufacturer.  Bit like VHS versus betamax, one was going to win.

[Il Grifone]

Let's not stray into the VHS/Betamax/Video 2000 battle. As usual the worst one won... (IMHO).

 

(Here it was supply (and to a lesser extent price?) - VHS blank and pre-recorded cassettes were more easily available and there was a greater range of titles.)

Edited June 26, 2021 by Il Grifone

[railroadbill]

I was really just making the point of 2 incompatible products, if you had a betamax player I couldn't come and play my recorded VHS cassette on it and vice versa. So I could run my H-D 3r locos on friends 3R layouts, and theirs on mine, but not Triang.  So there was some diversity. Although I had a triang station with my Hornby railway, and later lots of Airfix buildings, the technical design kept you with one manufacturer's product.

Now current  oo rolling stock is designed for the same specification of track, so you can run it all together (although you could have an entire railway using Hornby products).

In a way it's the actual technical spec (2 rail rather than 3 rail) that took Triang ahead, and that spec continued to win, even after Triang failed.  Can't see anyone introducing a new 3 rail system now.

The odd one is Marklin,  still going strong with 20v AC and stud contact.

[Il Grifone]

Stud contact is just sure fire reliable. It has all the easy wiring advantages of 3 rail and the studs are not that noticeable. Most of the Märklin locomotives were available as Hamo DC 2 rail. The only real incompatibility was the non-insulated wheels on the rolling stock. The AC problem is easily solved with a couple of diodes.

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, railroadbill said:

The odd one is Marklin,  still going strong with 20v AC and stud contact.

I think that is down to the size and market strength that Marklin had compared to Hornby-Dublo, to the point that rather than Marklin's system being killed off it has been absorbed into a set of interoperability standards so that, for example, Roco or Fleischmann items accommodate being converted to 3 rail working as standard operating procedure.

 

Since Marklin and Trix have been combined, the 2-rail versions of Marklin products have been issued as Trix items. 

[railroadbill]

That was the advantage with Hornby Dublo 3 rail,  centre rail kept clean by 2 sliding pickups on the loco, return to running rails via every wheel.  Triang seemed to have pickups on 4 driving wheels and that was that.

Now, you expect a oo loco to have pickups on all driving wheels plus tender,  Hornby T9 managed to have pickups on all wheels, including front bogies.  So reliable running with 2R is attainable, if you keep the track clean.

 

I wonder if Märklin kept going because steam in Germany lasted longer and that kept "steam" model railway enthusiasts interested.  

[railroadbill]

It also occurs to me that as a child we had Meccano, and clockwork Hornby O gauge for a while. So Hornby Dublo was in all the catalogues and price lists, being under the same roof as it were, and it was the natural replacement for the clockwork tinplate (rather than Triang).  And once you got it you were in the 3R system.    Got leaflets from the local toyshop, which was where you bought the stuff from so seeing the products depended on what they had in stock.

 

Also, when steam went on the railways (and railways were cut back a lot) railways themselves didn't have the same interest and model railways were looking back into the past instead of reflecting the present.  That would change in the future but I don't think the times helped Hornby Dublo.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by railroadbill

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, railroadbill said:

I wonder if Märklin kept going because steam in Germany lasted longer and that kept "steam" model railway enthusiasts interested.  

But Märklin sales were quite good in other parts of Europe, whereas Tri-ang or Hornby Dublo were probably virtually zero.

If owners had an extensive Märklin collection, then probably they would want to keep and expand it.

 

Remember even in the early 60s, Märklin had a much larger catalogue than Dublo and it was international in flavour. German, Austrian, Swiss, Dutch, Swedish, French, Italian, Belgian and the USA models (albeit some repaints) appeared, so they had sales in those countries presumably.

 

https://katalog.dermodellbahnblog.de/maerklin-katalog/MA1965_DE.pdf

 

The prototype photos within, suggest that the models were aimed more at the adult market than Hornby Dublo or Tri-ang. Just look at the photo of the father and son making up models. A mid-teenager shown, not a 10 year old in school uniform.

[Andy Kirkham]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

 

 

https://katalog.dermodellbahnblog.de/maerklin-katalog/MA1965_DE.pdf

 

 

I see at the back of the catalogue is something that looks remarkably like Meccano - "Metallbaukasten"

Edited June 26, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, andyman7 said:

I think that is down to the size and market strength that Marklin had compared to Hornby-Dublo, to the point that rather than Marklin's system being killed off it has been absorbed into a set of interoperability standards so that, for example, Roco or Fleischmann items accommodate being converted to 3 rail working as standard operating procedure.

 

Since Marklin and Trix have been combined, the 2-rail versions of Marklin products have been issued as Trix items. 

You may be right, bit I think it is more likely to be the other way round - Maerklin was such a major player that to make models for 2 rail only would have severely limited sales. Also, in my experience Roco make 2 versions of their models, one for 2 rail, and one for 3 rail each with its own unique catalogue number. Brawa do likewise, but given the price differential between their 2 and 3 rail locos I suspect that 3 rail analogue running is achieved by a factory fit digital decoder that will run on AC, but this is speculation on my part as I have no 3 rail Brawa locos. The only maker that I know who lets users convert locos between 2 and 3 rail is ESU, and I think they do that with switches activated by the fitting or removal of the 3rd "rail" pickup skate.   

3 hours ago, railroadbill said:

It also occurs to me that as a child we had Meccano, and clockwork Hornby O gauge for a while. So Hornby Dublo was in all the catalogues and price lists, being under the same roof as it were, and it was the natural replacement for the clockwork tinplate (rather than Triang).  And once you got it you were in the 3R system.    Got leaflets from the local toyshop, which was where you bought the stuff from so seeing the products depended on what they had in stock.

 

Also, when steam went on the railways (and railways were cut back a lot) railways themselves didn't have the same interest and model railways were looking back into the past instead of reflecting the present.  That would change in the future but I don't think the times helped Hornby Dublo.

 

I had Meccano, and Hornby O gauge tinplate, and my cousins had Dublo 3 rail, but I had Triang and never had any interest in Dublo 3 rail. So I'm not sure that your "natural progression" theory works beyond the mid/late 1950s, especially given the electrical complications in the first generation of Dublo 2 rail points - hardly suitable for kids.

 

Arguably, Triang, Dublo and Trix didn't look at the past. They "modelled" what was around at the time. The "cycling lion" was replaced by the "ferret & dartboard" and the black or green by Electric or Rail Blue when BR made the changes. Triang had a brief look back with the Lord of the Isles, Caley Single, Rocket, and the N. American style 2-6-0 Davy Crockett. Triang only started to look back towards the end of the '60s with the introduction of "Big 4" liveries on their existing models.

2 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

I see at the back of the catalogue is something that looks remarkably like Meccano - "Metallbaukasten"

There's a good reason for that, it is Meccano. I can't find the reference, but I read that Maerklin sold Meccano in Germany under their own name. I'm not sure whether it was imported from the UK or made under licence by Maerklin. Meccano/Hornby and Maerklin seem to have enjoyed a close relationship going back to the 1920s when Hornby seem to have been "inspired" by Maerklin designs for electrical equipment (both Maerklin and Hornby used mains power with very similar looking controllers), etc.. for their O gauge trains, and then for their 3 rail Dublo track in 1938, as discussed earlier. Given the intense dislike in the UK for Germany after WW1, this relationship seems never to have been made public. 

 

EDIT/UPDATE: In 1914, at the outbreak of WW1, the German government confiscates Meccano's German subsidiary Meccano GmbH, which is subsequently sold to Maerklin et Cie, who continue to produce Meccano-style construction outfits under their own name. (Source: "The Products of Binns Road - A general survey" by Peter Randall.

 

There was a metal construction system very similar to Meccano in Germany, called Tri-X, or if you prefer Trix, and that's where the Trix name came from, as like Meccano, Trix moved into toy trains. The Trix construction system had a triangular pattern to the holes in the metal strips and sheets, as opposed to the square pattern used by Meeccano, and was sold in the UK by Trix. But it is far less well known than Meccano in the UK.   

Edited June 26, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[kevinlms]

19 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

You may be right, bit I think it is more likely to be the other way round - Maerklin was such a major player that to make models for 2 rail only would have severely limited sales. Also, in my experience Roco make 2 versions of their models, one for 2 rail, and one for 3 rail each with its own unique catalogue number. Brawa do likewise, but given the price differential between their 2 and 3 rail locos I suspect that 3 rail analogue running is achieved by a factory fit digital decoder that will run on AC, but this is speculation on my part as I have no 3 rail Brawa locos. The only maker that I know who lets users convert locos between 2 and 3 rail is ESU, and I think they do that with switches activated by the fitting or removal of the 3rd "rail" pickup skate.   

 

So what is the correct spelling of Märklin? I thought it was I have just written it. Certainly the Wikipedia article says that is the proper way.

[sncf231e]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

So what is the correct spelling of Märklin? I thought it was I have just written it. Certainly the Wikipedia article says that is the proper way.

It sure is!

Regards

Fred (Märklinist since 1955)

[GoingUnderground]

Märklin is how it is spelt in German, with a diaeresis (the two dots) over the "a". If you do not have easy access to accented letters, and spelling it as "Marklin" without the diaeresis is incorrect, then inserting an "e" after the a is the usual way to ensure the correct pronunciation of the word as the Mär part should be pronounced as in "mare", not as in "mar", or so I am told. But I am happy to be corrected.

 

This is similar to the way that "ss" is written in German, using the Greek letter "Beta" which doesn't exist in the English alphabet. So we have to use "ss" as in "Weissbier".

[Philou]

diaeresis = umlaut over here. I can do ¨ on my keyboard but not 'beta'!

 

Not wanting to stray OP too much, but can anyone tell me why Märklin has never gone for insulated wheels on their stock? I've got some nice wagons but can't use them on 2-rail until they've been re-wheeled. I should have thought there to be some advantage in being able to run two locos on one track a la Trix 3-rail system. Perhaps it is already possible under analogue?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[GoingUnderground]

There's probably 2 reasons why Maerklin have stuck with uninsulated wheelsets:

1. Cost and simplicity - Why add cost and complexity when you don't need to. If both running rails are electrically connected, as they were when the Maerklin track base was metal, and have been despite the K and C track using a plastic track base, then there's no point in having insulated wheelsets.

2. Track occupancy in analogue running.

 

Track occupancy may sound odd, but if you isolate a section of one running rail then you can use the live wheelsets to complete a circuit between the opposite running rail and the isolated section. I believe this is how Maerklin's s88 feedback/occupancy detection works and is how ESU's ECoSDetector Standard works (it was designed as a replacement for s88 feedback modules which can be unreliable when they are daisy chained) and why it is cheaper than the ECoSDetector, it doesn't need any fancy electronics to detect current draw as it simply detects the completed circuit through the uninsulated wheelsets. THis works even when the loco is stationary and also on coaches and wagons with uninsulated wheelsets without any modification.

 

The use of uninsulated/live wheelsets is now such a long-standing part of the Maerklin 3 rail system, and is so useful for occupancy detection even in this digital era that there is little point in changing when 2 rail versions of Maerklin locos, with insulated wheelsets, are available under the Trix brand, the Trix name being owned by Maerklin since 1997.

 

The Trix Twin system (insulated wheelsets and the running rails insulated from each other with a 3rd centre rail) seems to have been unique, or at least I've never heard or read of another model railway system using it,  

Edited June 26, 2021 by GoingUnderground
Additional info

[Il Grifone]

17 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

I see at the back of the catalogue is something that looks remarkably like Meccano - "Metallbaukasten"

 

It is virtually a copy of Meccano. Pre WWII there was much cooperation between between the two companies (almost certainly where the Dublo track design originated).

More here:

https://www.nzmeccano.com/image-35282

 

As regards pickup, apart from a period during the Korean war, Dublo rail was brass (later nickel plated), whereas Tri-ang used steel, not the best material for electrical contact.

 

Märklin is pronounced 'Merkleen' - at least that's how they pronounced it on German television (SDR) so that's good enough for me. Maerklin is an alternate spelling if you don't have a keyboard with accents (or use 'Character Map').

Edited June 27, 2021 by Il Grifone

[GoingUnderground]

Your recent posts bringing Maerklin into our discussion raises another aspect about the relationship between Meccano/Hornby, Triang and Trix - Where was Maerklin in all this?

 

Despite the rivalry, economic and military, between the UK and Germany before WW1, many toys were imported into the UK from Germany, one only has to think of Bing. But the anti-German feeling created in the UK by WW1 meant that German made toys were largely unacceptable in the UK. Frank Hornby, the inventor of Meccano, stepped into this gap as far as O gauge trains are concerned. There is speculation as to how far Hornby drew on the designs of Bing and Maerklin or even bought in their products and sold them under the Hornby label.

 

But Hornby and Maerklin do seem to have had some sort of understanding that they wouldn't tread on each other's toes. Hornby made O gauge tinplate models between the wars in the liveries of French railway companies, but never of German ones other than some coaches in the "Mitropa" livery. And despite their strong presence in continental Europe, Maerklin seem to have had very little interest in the UK market up to the start of WW2. After the end of WW2 Maerklin sought to build back their presence in their pre-WW2 markets, and again largely ignored the UK.  So Meccano/Hornby seemed to have little to fear from a company that could have presented a very strong challenge to the Hornby brand in the UK in the 1950s if it had wanted to.

 

So did this feeling of safety from competition by Maerklin give Hornby a false sense of security, and they didn't take the challenge presented by Lines Bros and Triang Railways seriously until it was too late? Hornby had largely "seen off" the challenge of Trix in the OO gauge market, leveraging the reputation of their O gauge tinplate system and going with DC to launch the Dublo range in 1938. Did this make them "rest on their laurels" and feel that there was no need to innovate and develop the technical aspects of the Hornby system and the materials used to make it?

 

Richard Lines gives the impression in the Axiom videos that Hornby personnel who Lines met at trade fairs in the 1950s always regarded the Hornby system as superior and Triang as an upstart in the toy train market who wouldn't succeed in damaging Hornby.

 

The absence of Maerklin certainly benefited Triang in the UK as it meant that a potential major competitor was absent, and their excursions into the continental European markets were largely limited to the Netherlands in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

[Il Grifone]

I don't know about competition for Tri-ang as Märklin prices were rather stratospheric.

I remember a second hand shop in Bristol in the fifties had a box of German train in the Window. IIRC (long time ago) it was Märklin and consisted of a large German locomotive (01 pacific?) coaches and track. I would have been interested, but didn't have the twenty quid they were asking for it.

I did acquire a solitary Märklin open wagon. I didn't realise at the time, but it had the pre-war couplings and today would be worth rather more than the 4/- I paid for it. One of those items that just disappeared....

[GoingUnderground]

If Maerklin had been in the UK in the 1950s and their reputation for quality and reliable toys/models here had been great enough then that may well have counterbalanced Triang's advantage on price. Triang made very little headway against Maerklin in the Netherlands, but that may have been down to them trying to sell UK outline OO gauge models.

[kevinlms]

42 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

Your recent posts bringing Maerklin into our discussion raises another aspect about the relationship between Meccano/Hornby, Triang and Trix - Where was Maerklin in all this?

 

Despite the rivalry, economic and military, between the UK and Germany before WW1, many toys were imported into the UK from Germany, one only has to think of Bing. But the anti-German feeling created in the UK by WW1 meant that German made toys were largely unacceptable in the UK. Frank Hornby, the inventor of Meccano, stepped into this gap as far as O gauge trains are concerned. There is speculation as to how far Hornby drew on the designs of Bing and Maerklin or even bought in their products and sold them under the Hornby label.

 

But Hornby and Maerklin do seem to have had some sort of understanding that they wouldn't tread on each other's toes. Hornby made O gauge tinplate models between the wars in the liveries of French railway companies, but never of German ones other than some coaches in the "Mitropa" livery. And despite their strong presence in continental Europe, Maerklin seem to have had very little interest in the UK market up to the start of WW2. After the end of WW2 Maerklin sought to build back their presence in their pre-WW2 markets, and again largely ignored the UK. 

 

 

The absence of Maerklin certainly benefited Triang in the UK as it meant that a potential major competitor was absent, and their excursions into the continental European markets were largely limited to the Netherlands in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

It seems to me that Märklin didn't go into the British market in a big way. Why because Britons being Britons weren't particularly interested in foreign railways. Wasn't being racist (perhaps from some quarters), more of a case that the would be railway modellers had a full size railway, down at their local station, which looked nothing like German made models.

[kevinlms]

3 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

If Maerklin had been in the UK in the 1950s and their reputation for quality and reliable toys/models here had been great enough then that may well have counterbalanced Triang's advantage on price. Triang made very little headway against Maerklin in the Netherlands, but that may have been down to them trying to sell UK outline OO gauge models.

Yes, people prefer models of things they can readily see. Not always, but the majority do.

 

Always the exception when there is no local stuff. Lots of British, USA or European modellers in Australian, until high quality models of Australian prototypes became available, then many changed.

 

Previous Tri-ang Australian models sold in some numbers and later Lima. But once better models came, then those older models were put in the back of cupboards.

[Il Grifone]

Märklin did make an attempt in the British market in the thirties with an H0/00 LMS compound. Probably the combination of price and only vaguely looking  like a compound killed it.

The item is now very rare. The remains of one made around £30000 some years ago

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2228850_3393-marklin-ho-pre-war-e800-lms-maroon-compound

and

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/282-ho-marklin_73307

Edited June 27, 2021 by Il Grifone

[GoingUnderground]

I was working on the basis that  if Maerklin had been in the UK it would have been with UK outline toys/models as there would have been little interest in German, French or Italian outline toys/models. British Trix used German Trix underpinings on several of their locos, and Maerklin could have done the same.

 

We might even have ended up with H0 gauge instead of OO.

[kevinlms]

9 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Märklin did make an attempt in the British market in the thirties with an H0/00 LMS compound. Probably the combination of price and only vaguely looking  like a compound killed it.

The item is now very rare. The remains of one made around £30000 some years ago

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2228850_3393-marklin-ho-pre-war-e800-lms-maroon-compound

and

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/282-ho-marklin_73307

Glad I've never been interested!