E10 petrol: What is it and can my car run it?

[monkeysarefun]

Australia has had E10 since about 2005 (our PM at the time had a mate/donor with an Ethanol company called Manildra... but that had no bearing on it obviously...).

 

No publicised issues with any cars out here I can think of since then so any car  post that should be ok there too I reckon .

 

I don't use it, it costs less than 95RON but you also get less mpg out of it so the cost savings disappear and you've got to go to the servo more often.

 

Holden tuned their 6 litre  V8 to run on 85% ethanol which is meant to give it a bit of a kick in the bum. I've never tried it in my  ute, the pumps are few and far between and usually have a padlock on them to stop numpties using it by mistake or ignorance, since E85 is marketed by one  fuel company  here as "Race Blend" and who wouldn't want to give that a try out, but I can't be bothered asking for the key.

 

Plus, I've never thought I need a bit more power. 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[DavidB-AU]

I tried E10 on my previous car and it was a false economy, worse than 91 RON. Woefully inadequate in terms of power and range per tank was terrible. For long journeys on open roads I found 98 RON was the most cost effective. Despite being more expensive per litre it worked out much cheaper per km from significantly increased range on a tank.

 

You have to be careful about the source of advice on what can and can't run E10. According to the (local) gov website, my current car can use E10. However a sticker on the fuel cap says not to use E10 (95 and above is "recommended") and the dealer explicitly said verbally and in writing that using E10 will void the warranty. Go figure.

[alastairq]

As with the advent of unleaded fuel, then the realisation that 'modern' petrol was totally different stuff to the old petrol, ways and means of circumventing the effects, or using them to advantage, or offsetting them, have, can & will be found and tried.

 

In much the same way that ways & means were found to continue motoring when petrol itself became scarce on occasions?  {Wood alcohol, for example?]

 

I think the real problem is, with vehicles made [designed?] in the past 20 or 30 years, drivers have become somewhat complacent with regards to stuff like fuels , oils, tyres, etc?

We have also got used to laying blame elsewhere.

 

Maintenance expectations have changed....[as have essential driving skills!]

 

Relying solely on 'information' from dot gov pages, or [pseudo??] motoring organisations, or even sources only loosely related to anything concerning motoring matters [cornflakes, for example?}, and accepting said guff as gospel [whatever a gospel is?]....will inevitably lead to bar-room experts expounding even more rubbish.

Then we have the ''it shouldn't be allowed' brigade [say it with your best Dandy Nicholls accent?}?

 

Anything with a carburetor ought to be easy to adjust to suit....after all, I have had to make adjustments to my 1950's Ford engine to suit just today's basic E5 95 octane junglyjoose.  Timing can be fiddled with as well..[unless we are going to be sticklers and stay firmly with what the factory said, all those years ago? In a different fuel environment?]

 

If an ECU-controlled vehicle cannot cope with E10 [in what way, I would be asking??], then the ECU needs looking at, or changing? [It might not have the range of adjustment programmed in, to allow for the increase in oxygen levels in the fuel, for example?]

 

Going up in octane  shouldn't make an engine run 'worse'.... If it does, then maybe something else entirely is coming into play? [Is ignition timing 'adjustable?' Possibly not, with today's mobile 'mobile' phones ,that pass for apologies for cars?

 

Depends on how much of an enthusiast one really is, I suppose?

 

Depends on how much one wants to 'keep' the vehicle one has, as well?  

 

 

[TheQ]

It's not adjustment that is the problem, many older cars have rubber pipes, gaskets and seals that dissolve in the E10 petrol..

[alastairq]

2 minutes ago, TheQ said:

It's not adjustment that is the problem, many older cars have rubber pipes, gaskets and seals that dissolve in the E10 petrol..

 That's already been covered.

 

Plus, it's not only an increased percentage of ethanol that messes with rubber pipes, etc.....Petrol and oil does as well, seeing as how the constituents of today's petrol are so different to what they were 20 or more years ago?

Change them all out for ethanol resistant items, simples!

Or, go electric?

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

 That's already been covered.

 

Plus, it's not only an increased percentage of ethanol that messes with rubber pipes, etc.....Petrol and oil does as well, seeing as how the constituents of today's petrol are so different to what they were 20 or more years ago?

Change them all out for ethanol resistant items, simples!

Or, go electric?

 

Changing them doesn't sound all that simple. There's no way I'd want to tinker around with my car's fuel system, that sounds like a recipe for disaster for anyone who isn't at the very least a car enthusiast who knows what they're doing. IMO it's entirely reasonable to expect government and garage advice to be sufficiently informative when such changes are made.

[alastairq]

10 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Changing them doesn't sound all that simple. There's no way I'd want to tinker around with my car's fuel system, that sounds like a recipe for disaster for anyone who isn't at the very least a car enthusiast who knows what they're doing. IMO it's entirely reasonable to expect government and garage advice to be sufficiently informative when such changes are made.

 Pay someone to do it?

[Reorte]

32 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 Pay someone to do it?

Sure, but you first need to know whether or not it's needed, and I think it's reasonable to expect official advice combined with the garage saying what needs doing if it goes in to inform that for your average person, rather than expecting them to know themselves.

[admiles]

On 26/06/2021 at 22:28, Kickstart said:

The percentage displayed is not necessarily what it actually contains.

 

Tanks that seem to be suffering are the thick white plastic tanks. Aprilia, Ducati, Triumph, etc.

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

Yes three Aprilias on my fleet all of which are effectively scrap as they head toward the point

of fuel tanks no longer being safe to use. 

 

For alastairq to say it's down to a maintenance regime is frankly bizarre. If the ethanol itself is

attacking the plastic the fuel tank is made of there's not exactly much you can do about it.

[alastairq]

32 minutes ago, admiles said:

For alastairq to say it's down to a maintenance regime is frankly bizarre. If the ethanol itself is

attacking the plastic the fuel tank is made of there's not exactly much you can do about it.

 I wasn't referring to the plastic can thing, but the maintenance of fuel systems in general....which, from what I've seen, seem to be neglected, until a leak occurs?

[Anyway, are you sure it's the ethanol that is the culprit? Or is it another constituent in the fuel creating a problem?]

 

Other vehicles have plastic fuel tanks, still have, and don't seem to have any issues regarding adverse effects? [Fords, for example??]

 

How about changing the tank material?  Or using zero ethanol fuel [if ethanol is the problem?]

 

Seems someone somewhere got it wrong when the Aprilia tanks were specced, plastic-wise?  

 

From an Aprilia forum, 6 years ago this fuel tank issue was a problem...maybe it's the petrol at fault, rather than any ethanol in it? Who knows?

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?308911-Fuel-Tank-Material

 

Someone even used super unleaded,and still had the rippling effect occur? [Which makes me think it might be the petrol rather than the ethanol creating hte issue?]

 

Blame Aprilia for not getting the material correct, rather than the fuel situation..?

 

[stewartingram]

I run a Rover 75 with a KV6 engine. The Gov. site recommends nothing - as Rover is defunct. But we have a thriving and very supportive on-line Owner's Club, with a lot of knowledgeable people in it. Now, without going through the whole discussion on there, it seems my KV6 will be fine. Foreign owners have used the new fuel for ages for a start. But, the KV6 was also used in Land Rovers - and they are mentioned as ok on the Gov site. So I'm happy with the engine side of things. But there are the extras to consider - tank, pipes, etc. I'm confident about those too. Being of the same vintage, and from the same parentage, (though mainly physically a different fit), they should be ok. If not, I'll find alternatives (I've always maintained my own cars, and I've run a 75 since about 2007 so know them inside out).  Oh, one other thing - I normally run on lpg, the petrol is only used for starting anyway (unless I run out.....).

 

Stewart

[monkeysarefun]

This thread is pretty much echoing the same things we went through 20 years ago when E10 was introduced.

 

There were concerns that older engines would be damaged etc.

 

Prior to the mandated 10 percent limit, higher ethanol blends up to 20%  had been tried out which had led to engine damage on older cars, thus the 10 percent was settled upon since no damage had been reported at this level. 

 

In practice all cars from 2003 onwards were found to run without issues. If there were isolated incidents then they didn't make the news, they certainly weren't enough of any on one particular make or model to cause concerns.

 

"Question marks related to engine issues faded away long ago, and according to the Biofuels Association of Australia, the majority of cars manufactured since 1986, and therefore designed to run on regular unleaded petrol (ULP), are sanctioned by their manufacturer as E10 compatible."

 

There are still the odd arguments brought up of it having less lubricating properties than higher RON fuels which might be more damaging to the engines long term, but again I don't think anyone has proven anything one way or the other.

 

In NSW, the government has mandated the eventual replacement of regular unleaded with E10, and it has been priced accordingly to entice users. For instance a servo near here currently has E10 at $123.9 cents per litre, 91RON at $125.9,  95RON at  $137.9 and Premium (98RON) at $143.9. 

 

In Victoria, where there is no mandate in place, motorists have shunned the fuel, and I don't think it is available any more.

 

I tried it a few times back a few years ago when I had a 2001 Mitsubishi 3.5L V6 and gave it away pretty quickly. The reason was I was getting noticeably less distance out of a tank. With Premium fuel I'd  fill up every Friday, but with E10 I  found that it would only last until Wednesday afternoon, so I was visiting the service station every 5 days or so. Also  I definitely felt the engine to be a bit less responsive, a bit more sluggish whenever I used it. 

 

Its no longer an issue personally because now I have a diesel car and a slightly warmed V8 ute, which only gets 98RON premium because its my baby. 

 

In summary, I  guess like everyone here, use it if you want.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[Kickstart]

7 hours ago, alastairq said:

 I wasn't referring to the plastic can thing, but the maintenance of fuel systems in general....which, from what I've seen, seem to be neglected, until a leak occurs?

[Anyway, are you sure it's the ethanol that is the culprit? Or is it another constituent in the fuel creating a problem?]

 

Other vehicles have plastic fuel tanks, still have, and don't seem to have any issues regarding adverse effects? [Fords, for example??]

 

How about changing the tank material?  Or using zero ethanol fuel [if ethanol is the problem?]

 

Seems someone somewhere got it wrong when the Aprilia tanks were specced, plastic-wise?  

 

From an Aprilia forum, 6 years ago this fuel tank issue was a problem...maybe it's the petrol at fault, rather than any ethanol in it? Who knows?

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?308911-Fuel-Tank-Material

 

Someone even used super unleaded,and still had the rippling effect occur? [Which makes me think it might be the petrol rather than the ethanol creating hte issue?]

 

Blame Aprilia for not getting the material correct, rather than the fuel situation..?

 

The tanks are rather different.

 

The ones that seem to have a problem are the thick ones which are suitable be painted, rather than the cruder types used under covers, or under cars.

 

Super unleaded is not certain to be ethanol free. Claims it is in some areas, but even that is a bit uncertain. So a reasonable chance you will be going out of your way to pick a fuel which is labelled E5 or like like (as a requirement) and relying on a claim it doesn’t have ethanol in it.

 

Getting a new tank made would be very expensive, given the complex shape, etc, then paint on top of that. Probably £1500 minimum, and easily a lot more (factor in a fitting for a locking petrol cap, mounts for the internal fuel pump, etc.

 

Quite a few makes seem to have suffered.

 

Currently probably the easiest solution is to drain the fuel out where you get home and leave it empty, just refilling it when going out 

 

All the  best

 

Katy

[ianwales]

Slightly different question for those on here who have the knowledge, there seems to be an opinion that the E10 fuel can't be used in petrol lawn mowers annd not mixed with oil in 2 stroke garden machinery, anyone able to shed light on this?

 

Ian

[Oldddudders]

43 minutes ago, ianwales said:

Slightly different question for those on here who have the knowledge, there seems to be an opinion that the E10 fuel can't be used in petrol lawn mowers annd not mixed with oil in 2 stroke garden machinery, anyone able to shed light on this?

 

Ian

I suspect it's about age of the motor. My recent 4-stroke mowers run fine on E10, never having known anything else. For other garden machinery, I only use Stihl's own fuel. 

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, ianwales said:

Slightly different question for those on here who have the knowledge, there seems to be an opinion that the E10 fuel can't be used in petrol lawn mowers and not mixed with oil in 2 stroke garden machinery, anyone able to shed light on this?

 

Ian

 A big issue with any petrol powered garden tools concerns the degradation of fuel left in the tanks,over winter, for example?

This has actually been an ongoing problem for a couple of decades, and is the result of today's petrol having components that evaporate [flash off?] at much lower temperatures than we'd like. The percentage fuel loss over a month is quite considerable.

 

There are fuels freely available to the public which have a much longer shelf life.....for example

 

https://aaoil.co.uk/product-category/racing-fuel/storage-fuel/

 

There are others which are more ''gardener'' orientated.

These have a component make-up similar to pump petrol of the 1960's.

 

2-strokes?

https://www.stihl.com/e10-gasohol-ethanolgasoline-fuel-mixture.aspx

 and

https://scooterlab.uk/high-ethanol-content-fuel-will-it-kill-my-scooter-opinion/

 

The real point being, Europeans have been running two-strokes on E10 for quite a few years now, and no dire issues have been raised.

The 2nd link, to a scooter forum, has a list of ''recommendations''....As I have banged on about above, they also recommend replacing rubber fuel lines if not already done so [ by that, I'd say, in the past couple of years, not 1992!]....by using marked  ethanol resistant lines...ebay is your friend.

They also recommend checking fuel taps. Many fuel taps, and other washers, are nitrile rubber....this swells with modern petrol anyway, and can break up into the fuel system.  Replacing with viton washers & seals is probably good practice??

 

Of course, there are no plans to replace E5 fuels at the moment, either.

These will still be available, and are to be found in the ''super'' fuels nozzles.....For a lawn mower, I doubt the few extra pence per litre is going to matter?

[Kickstart]

Potential issues with some 2 strokes is of the run premix. And if the ethanol separates from the fuel, and from the oil pre mixed with the fuel.

 

Pumped system is a bit different

 

All the best

 

Katy

[PatB]

Sounds to me like a good excuse to run a castor based oil . 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Filled up my car yesterday at Sainsburys on E10. It is a Volvo C70 convertible, 2004 reg. Had a trip on business, which was mostly motorway driving. Not noticed any difference so far, but very early days.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Hroth]

On 30/06/2021 at 02:22, PatB said:

Sounds to me like a good excuse to run a castor based oil . 

 

Would that be labelled as "Regular" at the pumps?

[JohnDMJ]

Noticed the change from E5 to E10 on 95 Octane last time I filled up. Normally, I'd get just shy of 300 miles from a full tank; this time I only achieved 251 for the same daily journeys. 35 mile warning came on and soon dropped to 20 miles in less than 4 miles travel!

 

Just filled up and am trying 98 octane E5 to see if that counters the effect.  Car's computer suggests 350 mile range!

Edited August 23, 2021 by JohnDMJ

[spamcan61]

Have gone through a tankful of E10 in the babe magnet (tatty 07 plate Avensis 1.8 auto) reckon economy is with 5% of E5, although from previous experience I'd really need to measure it over 1000s of miles to get a meaningful figure. From my point of view it's near enough the same.

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't think my car would take kindly to this new E10.

It's a diesel.

[PenrithBeacon]

I think my 2010 Jazz is OK with E10.

Having said that, I do see a difference in mpg between different brands of E5 and even from different garages selling the same brand.  I'm not sure that I'm buying a standard product.

[alastairq]

36 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I'm not sure that I'm buying a standard product.

 I think the E5 & E10 labels actually mean, ''up to'' E-whatever.