Plymouth Sutton Harbour branch

[KeithMacdonald]

Once upon a time, someone started a Plymouth Cattewater branch topic. And very nice it has been too!

 

 

Just recently, @brianusa woefully said:

 

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This article has been getting on for nearly ten years now.  An obscure little branch line in an industrial area of Plymouth known only to those who know the area or those who enjoy such lines.  Plymouth is fortunate to have such history in its railways, but surely its drawing to a close, as is this topic.  (What am I saying?)!

 

Just in case, here's a "Plan B"  ... Plymouth Sutton Harbour branch.

[KeithMacdonald]

Anything coming from the Laira direction and aiming for the Cattewater branch had two options.

(a) to go straight on at Friary Junction, and then reverse back round the loop.

(b) to go down the single track that ran parallel to Embankment Lane.

 

But to get into the Sutton Harbour branch, there was only one option : "left hand down a bit" on the approach to Friary Junction.

 

 

Running past Embankment Gate (toll gate) and the Excelsior Plough Works (I wonder what they made there?) before turning south west and going under Laira Bridge Road.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

I've got a brand new combine harvester and I'll give you the key.

 

No, that's not right, that came later.

 

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1894 Excelsior Works, Embankment Road, Plymouth. In the Western Counties no firm enjoys, or has enjoyed, a higher reputation than that of Messrs. Davey, Sleep & Co., of ‘Excelsior’ Works, Embankment Road, Plymouth, who hold a leading position in their own line of operations, maintained by a consistent application of the latest scientific improvements to all the work for which they are responsible. The works occupy a triangular piece of ground of considerable extent at the north-eastern extremity of the town, and comprise a spacious block of buildings having an area of 103,000 square feet, fitted up with all necessary appointments for the carrying on of their extensive business, and for the manufacture of the many machines with which their name is identified.

 

Ref: Grace's guide

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Davey,_Sleep_and_Co

 

The many machines being horse-drawn farming implements. Every farmer needs a horse-drawn plough, they always will. What could possible go wrong?

 

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the onslaught of developments in the agricultural world, such as petrol-driven tractors replacing horses, slowly brought about the decline of the business.  The premises were valued on March 9th 1933 at £9,480.  It would appear that this was done on behalf of a prospective purchaser because correspondence survives about a possible mortgage of £6,000.  ... The sale must have fallen through because in 1935 Messrs Davey, Sleep and Company Limited was amalgamated with Messrs Bickle and Company, iron founders, at Millbay Docks and the site of the Works at Laira Bridge was taken over by the Western National Omnibus Company Limited for an extension to their depot.

 

Ref: Old Plymouth

https://www.oldplymouth.uk/Davey, Sleep and Company Limited.htm

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Well, I've driven past the Western National depot many times, so many times in fact that I stopped ever giving it a glance. Next thing I know .. it's gone! Gone where, I don't know.

 

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On 7 August 1987 Western National, was sold to Plympton Coachlines with Badgerline having an initial 39% shareholding, which was increased to 66% in August 1988. Western National was included in the June 1995 merger of Badgerline with GRT Group to form FirstBus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_National

 

 

FirstBus is part of FirstGroup and based in Aberdeen. They've not moved the buses there have they?

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

First group moved to a site adjacent to Chelson Meadow, they have since pulled out of Plymouth and Stagecoach now operate the routes and the depot. Part of the site has been used to improve the traffic flow from Embankment road to Laira Bridge. The rest of the site is currently waste ground, due to the ground being contaminated and thus unusable for housing.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

After going under Laira Bridge Road, past Princerock Farm. Which has long disappeared under Brentor Road and Grenville Road. What was the railway line is now Gdynia Way. That short straight siding, ending at the Laira Bridge Road, is now Faraday Mills car park. The large building next to the road (south of the Toll Gate) is now GO Outdoors warehouse/shop.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

The straight double-track from Princerock to Cattedown Road. Now part of the "new improved" A374. The noise from that probably hasn't pleased the inhabitants of the houses which are still there in Mainstone Avenue and Julian Street.

 

 

The site of Coxside Tannary is now a PIzza Hut and the car park for the Barbican Leisure Park.

[KeithMacdonald]

From Catdown Bridge, the branch split into two.

 

The southern spur went to Lockyer's Quay and a Goods Station. Now, the trackbed is a road called Barbican Approach, and the Goods Station is a Premier Inn.

 

 

Lockyer's Quay (I think) was a loading dock for GWR fish wagons.

 

 

The northern spur ran parallel to St.John's Road, towards Sutton Harbour.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Plymouth Saw & Planing Mills

 

I had a vague memory of this, because of the timber yards and builder's merchants that are still there. It wasn't until I started this topic and started staring at maps that I realised it had its own tramways as well.  It seems to be seperate from the GWR tracks, and the tightness of the curves through the timber sheds suggests it was narrow gauge. But what kind? I've no idea. Has anyone ever seen anything? The one distinctive building that's still there is China House. But is it still called that?

 

 

You can see more detail here:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=50.36873&lon=-4.12945&layers=168&b=1

[brianusa]

Keith, having driven many times on Sutton Rd over those timber* lines - definitely narrow gauge!  Somewhere in the 15"/20" range and mainly used to manually push loads of timber into the various track connected sheds, if I remember correctly; which usually I don't,  Used a slip close by with a friend with a boat at one time, fishing in the Sound. 

*Timber or Lumber, I can never remember!

   Brian.

Edited July 3, 2021 by brianusa

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

From Catdown Bridge, the branch split into two.

 

The southern spur went to Lockyer's Quay and a Goods Station. Now, the trackbed is a road called Barbican Approach, and the Goods Station is a Premier Inn.

 

 

Lockyer's Quay (I think) was a loading dock for GWR fish wagons.

 

 

The northern spur ran parallel to St.John's Road, towards Sutton Harbour.

 

 

 

These plans would make up into a very interesting model, though for most of us a certain amount of compression would be needed

[Kris]

9 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

The one distinctive building that's still there is China House. But is it still called that?

 

I believe that it is now a chain restaurant and is no longer called the China House. 

[KeithMacdonald]

10 hours ago, brianusa said:

Keith, having driven many times on Sutton Rd over those timber* lines - definitely narrow gauge!  Somewhere in the 15"/20" range and mainly used to manually push loads of timber into the various track connected sheds, if I remember correctly; which usually I don't, 

 

I'm glad you've said that, as I was wondering if my memory was playing tricks. As in, I could swear we used to drive over some tracks embedded in the road. But that might have been as much as 20 years ago.

[KeithMacdonald]

Continuing along the northern spur, past St.John's Church, we get to Sutton Harbour's North East Quay. A couple of wagon turntables connect track to warehouses. The line then goes along North Quay, via more wagon turntables to Vauxhall Quay and Sutton Jetty and a goods shed.

 

 

The tracks are still in place on North Quay and Sutton Wharf, and are visible on Google Street View.

 

[Kris]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

I'm glad you've said that, as I was wondering if my memory was playing tricks. As in, I could swear we used to drive over some tracks embedded in the road. But that might have been as much as 20 years ago.

I used walk up and down Sutton Road quite a bit 24 years ago and have no memory of any tracks going over the the road at that time (however I will say that I was less than sober on many of these occasions).  

[KeithMacdonald]

For the "evidence file" (m'lud), as proof our memories are not playing tricks on us.

 

China House in 2004, before it got renamed.

https://www.picturesofengland.com/England/Devon/Plymouth/pictures/1082561

[pb_devon]

Keith,

Suggest you get the book Plymouths Hidden Railways by Paul Burkhalter, pub Twelveheads Press. OOP, but s/h might be available.

This covers a lot of this area in some detail.

[KeithMacdonald]

Here's an interesting picture, of a building on the Barbican that some of us must have walked past many times.

 

(C) Richard and Gill Long on Flickr

 

 

Note: The very faded lettering says:

 

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London South Western Railway
Receiving Office for Goods
And Parcels to all Parts

 

But, hang on, isn't the Sutton Branch a GWR branch?  Yes it is!

 

But the LSWR very cleverly dug a tunnel from Friary Station, under Jubilee Street, which gave them access to North Quay as well as GWR.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

13 minutes ago, pb_devon said:

Keith,

Suggest you get the book Plymouths Hidden Railways by Paul Burkhalter, pub Twelveheads Press. OOP, but s/h might be available.

This covers a lot of this area in some detail.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, it looks like a very useful book. Sadly, at an asking price of £39.99, I will struggle to get approval from my Financial Director (SWMBO)

 

[brianusa]

2 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

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London South Western Railway
Receiving Office for Goods
And Parcels to all Parts

 

But, hang on, isn't the Sutton Branch a GWR branch?  Yes it is!

 

But the LSWR very cleverly dug a tunnel from Friary Station, under Jubilee Street, which gave them access to North Quay as well as GWR.

 

Its a shame that this old ad can't be restored; they do it quite often over here!  Its been there ever since I can remember!

  Brian

[Moxy]

2 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Here's an interesting picture, of a building on the Barbican that some of us must have walked past many times.

 

(C) Richard and Gill Long on Flickr

 

 

Note: The very faded lettering says:

 

 

But, hang on, isn't the Sutton Branch a GWR branch?  Yes it is!

 

But the LSWR very cleverly dug a tunnel from Friary Station, under Jubilee Street, which gave them access to North Quay as well as GWR.

 

 

 

Bilteezi did that building as a kit

 

https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Bilteezi-4G4-Low-Relief-Goods-Receiving-Depot-OO_N105272351

 

Not a very good picture, but the only one I could find online.

[KeithMacdonald]

An update!

I've only just noticed there's a slightly more recent version of the OS 25" map available. 1914 instead of 1898.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106006871

 

This shows something that was nearly-new in 1914, Bayly Wharf.

 

 

When was Bayly Wharf built?

 

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The Wharf was opened on May 12th 1900 when the steamer "Newark" landed 1,500 tons of coal at the Gas Company's yard.   All the work was done by hand and only seven or eight trucks could be loaded in a day.

 

Doesn't sound like much does it? Ah, but wait!

 

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In June 1907 the Plymouth Steamship and Coal Company completed the installation of a new electrically-operated discharging plant and ferro-concrete coal silos at Bayly's Wharf.  They were the first in the country.   It enabled 40 or 50 trucks to be loaded in a day.

 

That must have been cutting-edge technology in its time. A look at the Timeline of the UK electricity supply industry suggest not many places in Plymouth even had an electricity supply in 1907. Street lighting was the first use, the Electric Lighting Orders Confirmation (No.11) Act for Plymouth was passed in 1890.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_UK_electricity_supply_industry

 

What did it have?

 

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A 45-ton crane with a 45 feet jib conveyed the coal from the ships' holds to the silos.  The crane ran along an iron gantry 120 feet long and 90 feet in height, this being supported by five massive iron standards.   Suspended from the crane was a large "grabber", which was lowered in to the hold and lifted between two and three tons of coal at a time.  The crane then ran along the side of the silos and the coal was emptied in to the hoppers, passing through two screens that divided the coal in to three qualities - house coal, nuts, and slack.

The silo was divided in to four sections, each capable of holding 1,000 tons of coal.  There were sixteen automatic screens for loading railway trucks and another eight for loading carts used in the domestic coal trade.

A 20 horse-power electric capstan was used to haul the trucks in and out of the building and along the quay.  It could haul twenty fully loaded trucks at one time.  The crane was driven by a 40 horse-power motor.   It also had a slewing motor of 10 hp and a traversing motor of 15 hp.

The Plymouth Steamship and Coal Company employed five steamers to carry coal to Plymouth from collieries in Northumberland and Yorkshire.

 

 

All ref (and thanks): Old Plymouth

https://oldplymouth.uk/Sutton Harbour (Sutton Pool).htm

 

It strikes me that this was revolutionary for its time. It must have been one of the very first industrial examples in Plymouth of the use of electricity instead of steam, even if the electricity was being used to move old-fashioned coal.

 

Side note: I'd love to contact Brian Moseley at "Old Plymouth" and thank him properly, but I can't find any contact details on any of the "Old Plymouth" pages.

 

[pb_devon]

Keith,

I will pass on your thanks to Brian, and draw his attention to this post.

pb

[rodent279]

10 hours ago, Moxy said:

 

Bilteezi did that building as a kit

 

https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Bilteezi-4G4-Low-Relief-Goods-Receiving-Depot-OO_N105272351

 

Not a very good picture, but the only one I could find online.

If I'm not mistaken, that building is a very short walk from Cap'n Jasper's?

Haven't been there in some years, used to be a regular feature of trips to Plymouth to visit the in laws.

[Siberian Snooper]

36 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

If I'm not mistaken, that building is a very short walk from Cap'n Jasper's?

Haven't been there in some years, used to be a regular feature of trips to Plymouth to visit the in laws.

 

You are quite correct, not much more than the length of what is now the Edinburgh Woollen Mill shop, previously the fish market.