Cardiff-Bristol- Portsmouth

[ianwales]

Hi all

 

What locos would have been likely to appear on the Cardiff-Bristol-Portsmouth trains in the late 60's early 70's. I have been told 33's and apparently 33/1's and 4TC units appeared in 1971, what else would have been common on these trains and did the Class 123 DMU's appear on these trains?

 

Ian

['CHARD]

Was this not classic Hymek hometurf, with Bath Road's sizeable allocation of 31s then putting in some years?

[renovater 1]

Nothing but Hymeks i'm afraid.

[DavidB-AU]

Nothing but Hymeks i'm afraid.

Except on Sundays in the early 70s when there was a diagram for a 33/1 and 4TC (or 8TC?) running Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff and return.

 

Cheers

David

[Fat Controller]

Except on Sundays in the early 70s when there was a diagram for a 33/1 and 4TC (or 8TC?) running Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff and return.

 

Cheers

David

The late sixties did see Swindon Intercity units on this run. There was also a Saturday working with a 33/0 and loco-hauled stock- this may have worked from further east than Pompey- which I saw at STJ.

In the early seventies, it was almost always Hymeks- the train sometimes including a Stanier BG- going over to 31s in 1974/5. Someone with a sense of humour in Control sometimes substituted a DEMU for this- I remember the pained expression on my then girlfriend's face when she alighted after travelling from Soton to Bristol, having used a compartment with no access to a toilet.

The 31s were sluggish in the extreme, but this did at least extend the time for fond farewells when the train left Temple Meads.....

[Oldfield_Park]

There are a couple of photos about of 47s on this run from around 1965/6, so right at the beginning of your timeframe.

[Pennine MC]

In the early seventies, it was almost always Hymeks- the train sometimes including a Stanier BG- going over to 31s in 1974/5. Someone with a sense of humour in Control sometimes substituted a DEMU for this-

 

As I understand it (not being local, just from recollection of how the mags reported it at the time), there was a spell in between the last Hymek use and the 31 takeover, when the workings were diagrammed to be shared between WR Cross Country sets and SR 3Hs. Based on those dates, it may well have been from about 1972ish (by which time Hymeks were getting scarce) to 1975ish

[The Stationmaster]

As I understand it (not being local, just from recollection of how the mags reported it at the time), there was a spell in between the last Hymek use and the 31 takeover, when the workings were diagrammed to be shared between WR Cross Country sets and SR 3Hs. Based on those dates, it may well have been from about 1972ish (by which time Hymeks were getting scarce) to 1975ish

 

 

Definitely running Hampshire units in the mid '70s, including one which caught fire (underframe job only - thank goodness as it was during a national Fire Brigade strike and we used up our entire stock of extinguishers on it before we were lucky enough to get the non-striking local retained Firemen on the job).

[hoovered]

A few photos from the 80's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[br2975]

Late 60s early 70s Cardiff - Bristol - Pompey was almost solidly Hymek (Cl.35).

.

However,

 

1971 saw a summer Saturday working which arrived Cardiff early afternoon hauled by a Cl.33 with hauled stock.

eg 12/06/71 - 6536, 19/06/71 - 6505, 26/06/71 - 6524, 03/07/71 - 6543, 10/07/71 - 6525, 17/07/71 - 6532, 24/04/71 - 6528, 31/07/71 - 6548, 07/08/71 - 6538, 14/08/71 - 6517, 21/08/71 - 6506, 28/08/71 - 6527, 04/09/71 - 6538..

.

1972 there were again summer Saturday workings, which on occasions could produce two Cl.33 hauled trains with loco hauled stock, but this was the exception..

eg 08/07/72 - 6546, 22/07/72 - 6548, 05/08/72 - 6551

.

Cl.33/1 and 2x 4TC workings were rostered for Sundays during November, 1971 but did not run on either 07/11/71 or 14/11/71 but on 21/11/71 6536 + 404 + 407 worked the diagram, and 6520 + 408 + 402 the following Sunday, 28/11/71.

.

Hymeks were still working Cardiff - Bristol - Pompey in late 1972, I recall seeing 7074 at Pompey Harbour on Sunday 30/07/72. That day three 'Mystery Excurions' worked from South Wales to Pompey Hbr. hauled by Cl.47s 1925 (1Z70), 1938 (1Z73) and 1693 (1Z74).

 

Boxing Day 1970 saw a 3H unit deputise on an afternoon Pompey - Cardiff working, reaching Newport 90 down, and the first time I rode on one, from Newport - Cardiff, and the sound stayed with me ...

 

On Saturday 04/03/72 I took the 1620 ex Cardiff (to Bristol) hauled by 7039, the reason being to bunk Marsh Jct. for the stored/withdrawn hydraulics, which on that day included 815, 831, 867, 869, 6308, 6319, 6328, 6330, 6334, 6337, 6348, 7003, 7008, 7013, 7021, 7025, 7040, 7041, 7043, 7047, 7051, 7056, 7057, 7065, 7067, 7078,

The writing was on the wall for the Hymeks with Cl.31s 5695, 5824, 5826, 5828 at Bath Rd.

 

The attachment shows D7005 at the head of a more typical Cardiff - Pompey train on 07/08/71.

.

Brian R

[LSWR]

My picture from a slightly earlier period in 1965 at Fareham where you can take your pick of motive power.

 

Plymouth - Brighton (BRCW Type 3) meets Portsmouth - Bristol (Swindon Inter-City) with BR Standard Class 4 2-6-4T waiting on the Gosport branch to take the Portsmouth carriages off the train from Plymouth.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Awesome photo

 

Bill

[JZ]

I understand that the class 123 units were built for the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, although they didn't last that long on it. Hymeks were pretty much the order of the day during the period you ask about. There is a 1970 picture in 'Heyday of the Warships' of one on a CDF-PMH service at Bradford on Avon. And on one occaision, although I cannot remember the year, I did see Falcon, for the one and only time, on said service at BoA.

[The Stationmaster]

I understand that the class 123 units were built for the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, although they didn't last that long on it. Hymeks were pretty much the order of the day during the period you ask about. There is a 1970 picture in 'Heyday of the Warships' of one on a CDF-PMH service at Bradford on Avon. And on one occaision, although I cannot remember the year, I did see Falcon, for the one and only time, on said service at BoA.

 

The units were indeed built for the route (and possibly wider use but that is where they all went when new). But they suffered from major reliability (lack of) problems and after only a few years were all transferred to the London Division where they were restricted - normally - to working within the Division and kept under fairly close maintenace watch.

 

Very much a Mk1 coach sort of dmu and hence very comfortable to travel in (I used to commute in them regularly at one time) and perfectly good over a distance as they were also used on weekend excursion jobs. But the engines were always troublesome and I believe they had one or two other maladies as well.

[Gwiwer]

I will verify and amplify some of the above comments.

 

In the early 1970's the through Porstmouth - Cardiff weekday service was entirely worked by class 35 Hymek locos with usually 6 Mk1 coaches including a buffet. There were just three return trips; hard to believe with todays hourly or better service. There was a summer Saturday Brighton (not Portsmouth) - Cardiff working which was an out-and-back class 33 with what I believe was an Oxted line peak hour 8-set of Mk1 stock as it did not include a buffet. The only Sunday working was a Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff out-and-back 8TC+33/1 which sometimes ran with only one 4TC unit.

 

A couple of years earlier you would indeed have seen class 123 dmu sets on the service. They were not built specifically for this route but I believe were less than successful on their intended fast Taunton - London and Plymouth - Birmingham workings and were cascaded very quickly. They were moved on just as quickly to the Thames Valley where they were often found on Oxford and Newbury turns and occasionally on Reading semi-fasts.

 

While there was only a very limited through service there was also an hourly Portsmouth & Southsea - Salisbury semi-fast formed of 3H units. Usually only one but with appearances of two together for peak traffic or stock balancing. There were also Bristol - Salisbury workings formed of class 120 dmu stock and occasionally anything else available. I have noted class 116 / 117 triples at Salisbury on these trips for example. There was, therefore, almost an hourly option of travel between Cardiff, Bristol, Salisbury and Portsmouth even if it meant at least one change.

 

Move forward a couple of years and the changes were rapid. First the loco-hauled sets had the buffets (usually an RMB though blue-grey Gresley buffet W9135E became a regular performer) removed and cut to five-car rakes. The through service was cut to a single out-and-back trip from the Cardiff end. Hymeks then went the way of all diesel-hydraulics and were replaced on a trial basis by class 31 and 33 briefly.

 

The service was cut back to Bristol except for a few workings. Next came the dreaded interlude when the 3H sets - with no toilets for most passengers and no catering either - worked throughout alongside a handful of WR dmu types. This was basically a combination of the two stopping services across Salisbury and was a disaster. Overcrowding was rife, late running was the norm, the WR sets couldn't cope with the SR timetables which relied upon the better acceleration and braking of their stock and there were complaints about the lack of toilets.

 

Loco and coaches returned on a 2-hourly timetable, much the same as the dmu stock had been working but once again additional to the local services which gave the required increase in capacity, and with a mixture of classes 31 and 33 again. Class 33 subsequently became the staple as WR crews were trained farther and farther afield on them and they ventured as far as Manchester feeding onto the North & West from Portsmouth rosters at Cardiff. By this time the Salisbury semi-fasts had also been extended up to Portsmouth Harbour.

 

There continued to be a few through workings to and from Brighton though they switched from Saturday to Sunday at one point and then seemed to change with every new timetable.

 

During the withdrawal phase of the Hymeks anything available could (and sometimes did) appear in their place; class 47 was not unknown. There was one entirely unsubstantiated claim of a 45; no evidence has been presented to suggest this ever occurred but it received mention in passing among some enthusiasts at the time. Peaks have been seen at Salisbury; I noted two on freights in the early 70's and they also had a summer Saturday working to Portsmouth Harbour from Derby for several years. But not on the Portsmouth - Cardiff trains. Unless anyone here knows better.

[Pennine MC]

Railcar recounts the early usage of the 123s, albeit uncharacteristically garbled and without a detailed timeline:

 

The sets were originally designed for a through South Coast - Wales service, and initially consideration was given to building them with diesel electric transmission. Plans for a through service from Brighton were abandoned because of the SR`s resistance to DMUs, but they did manage to make it to Portsmouth on services from Cardiff and Bristol.

The sets were introduced on Western Region services between Swansea, Cardiff, Birmingham, Derby and Crewe, and on the Cardiff to Bristol route. Displacement saw them allocated to Reading for working "outer-suburban" services out of Paddington to Oxford and Newbury

 

 

I've certainly seen at least one contemporary shot of one when very new on something described as a Derby - Bristol IIRC; putting the best interpretation on the sometimes conflicting evidence, I'd postulate that they were indeed intended for the Cardiff - South Coast route, but that the SR put the kybosh on it, then the NE/SW route usage was maybe an attempt to find work for them until somebody had the bright idea of stopping services at Portsmouth rather than Brighton

[br2975]

I recall the Cl.123 units working Paddington - Minehead and Oxford - Minehead summer (Saturday) dated workings circa 1969/70 (lost that particular notebook), workings that had also previously been Hymek hauled.

.

I recall in later years, 1987, Cl.37/4s working Milford Haven / Swansea and Cardiff - Bristol trains, and also Cardiff - Pompey trains as far as Temple Meads where Cl.33s would take over for the run to the South Coast. During 1987-88 some Bristol - Cardiff portions of Pompey workings were Cl.50 hauled, especially in 1988 the 1V85 1710 ex Pompey Harbour.

 

As for Cl.31s on the South Wales - South Coast axis.

 

Monday 14th. May, 1979, 31286 arrived at Cardiff Central on a then daily parcels working which (IIRC) originated at Swindon.

.

Having shunted the motley collection of BR GUV/CCT ex-LMS 'B' and former SR vans into "8 and 9" the Cl.31 headed light to Canton and collected stock for a Cardiff - Portsmouth working.

.

The following day I snapped 31414 on a Pompey - Cardiff working (poor quality, but it includes Canton set C453 in the white 'refurbished' livery).

.

Brian R

[leekman]

The units were indeed built for the route (and possibly wider use but that is where they all went when new). But they suffered from major reliability (lack of) problems and after only a few years were all transferred to the London Division where they were restricted - normally - to working within the Division and kept under fairly close maintenace watch.

 

Very much a Mk1 coach sort of dmu and hence very comfortable to travel in (I used to commute in them regularly at one time) and perfectly good over a distance as they were also used on weekend excursion jobs. But the engines were always troublesome and I believe they had one or two other maladies as well.

 

 

I have a note in my photo list of 45074 on Sunday 4th March 1979 at Cardiff on the 1115 ex Portsmouth Harbour, although, I suspect it would have worked from Bristol due to the reversal there, but I cannot confirm - can anyone else?

[Gwiwer]

I have a note in my photo list of 45074 on Sunday 4th March 1979 at Cardiff on the 1115 ex Portsmouth Harbour,

 

That is the working which should have been 33/1 (leading into Cardiff) + 8TC. The formation should have been TC leading from Portsmouth then after reversal at Bristol the 33 would lead as WR crews were not all trained to drive the TC leading. With a run-round at Cardiff the 33 then led back to Bristol and the TC stock led back to Portsmouth. By 1979 the TC may have given way to loose-coupled stock or this might have been a substitution for example if engineering works had cut the route and the SR stock did not work through.

[Fat Controller]

Ian,

Just bought 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' which has quite a few photos of 'Hymek' hauled workings:-

10/06/1968 D7046 with 6 on as 09:50 Cardiff- Portsmouth

Both end vehicles (BSK?) are maroon, the rest blue and grey, and the train has a RMB as 4th vehicle.

26/10/1971 7007 with 6 on as 09:15 Cardiff- Portsmouth- one end vehicle is a BG, and there is no buffet.

10/04/1970 7096 with 6 on- BG and no buffet.

[keefer]

i've read before about the SR's reluctance to have anything to do with the 123s - not because they were DMUs per se, but mechanical DMUs - the thumper DEMUs at least had components like EE traction motors and control systems similar to those in the EMUs of the time. i get the impression that full mechanical transmission was not something SR depots were too familiar with and there wasn't much desire to start! hence, when they did run over these routes, they were very definitely WR allocated and maintained.

 

re: the comfort factor, they were the only DMUs to be mounted on B4s, the accomodation itself being equivalent to the contemporary mk1 LH stock

[acg5324]

Link to photo restored ( Zenfolio vice Fotopic ).

 

Summer 1976 (year corrected) and with a weekly runabout ticket (East Worthing to Salisbury)in hand finds me at Salisbury. 31250 has just arrived on a Portsmouth Hbr to Cardiff train and 33105 heads a Waterloo to Exeter service.

[Pennine MC]

Dont want to rubbish your notekeeping Andy but with that '0000' headcode, it's more likely to be '76

[acg5324]

Dont want to rubbish your notekeeping Andy but with that '0000' headcode, it's more likely to be '76

 

You won't be rubbishing my notes they got lost years ago.....1976 it is then, thanks.

[South of 1E]

220577

Bath

31294p, 47075H-1110 Portsmouth-Cardiff

Dr Days

08953

Temple Meads

50043, 47533, 45050 H-1110 Portsmouth-Cardiff, 47035,

 

As above used to quite often catch the Sunday morning pompey-Cardiff from Bath, At this time steam heat 31's were on most pompey-bristols like 31294 viewed at Bath here going South. This train was a regular 47 working so these fascinating trains can claim "big Sulzers too!

 

nr