Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Joseph_Pestell]

You could always try yachting (analogous to standing in the shower tearing up £20 notes.)

 

Yachting is not expensive. Owning a yacht is.

 

My brother-in-law actually makes quite a good living (as a second job) sailing other people's boats in various parts of the world.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I bought an 8 month old Renault Zoe recently, it's the quick charging 40kW version.  In Scotland there is a big advantage in that the charging network is pretty good and, for the moment, it's free.  I met a guy when plugged in on a street charger and he hasn't got a charger at home and for the past year he's been using the local network, an hour or so a few times a week, but zero fuel cost.

 

In the cold weather it was showing 130 miles range fully charged on the guess-ometer, this evening it showed 175 miles.  I do a 160 mile round trip once a week or so and if I go at 70 mph, it delivers about 25-30% less than it's guess when I start the journey.  Dodging Eddie Stobarts at 60mph and it's pretty much bang on to judge the range.  An hour on a street charger at the other end gets me home fine.  For local journeys (40 to 60 miles round trips) it's no issue at all.

 

The interior is pretty basic, but it's comfortable enough.  Unfortunately it can't be fitted with a tow-bar so I have to keep my petrol car for trailer work otherwise I'd be content to rely on the Zoe entirely.  If I wanted to do a very long journey without an hour's break every 120 miles or so, I'd hire a car.

 

The battery is rented (£65 a month) with guarantee that will rectify any loss of health that takes performance below 75%.

 

I think it's DCC ready, so when someone gets a chip sorted that will give me the sounds of a Royal Scot synchronised with the accelerator, I'll be more than content.

 

If someone sold the Zoe after 8 months, it was presumably not the right car for them.

 

I nearly bought the larger Renault EV (Fluence?) a few years ago. But the boot space was too compromised by the battery. I could not understand why Renault had chosen to try this with a saloon bodywork (imported from Korea) rather than use the greater space available in one of their MPVs.

[PatB]

Yachting is not expensive. Owning a yacht is.

 

My brother-in-law actually makes quite a good living (as a second job) sailing other people's boats in various parts of the world.

 

OT, but I find myself rather intrigued by the subset of boaties who do their (generally non-competitive) nautical stuff on the cheap(er). A Google search on "Phil Bolger" will turn up references to all sorts of unconventional vessels and links which can be followed to various eccentrics who use alternative approaches to various problems. As an example, the Chinese Junk Rig is reputed to offer a means of obtaining reasonable sailing performance without the need for the super  high grade (and therefore expensive) materials and fittings required for a conventional rig. I should point out that I've no practical experience of such things. I just enjoy seeing people with the gumption to try doing things differently.

 

To come back within spitting distance of the topic, though, as has been pointed out upthread, high performance IC vehicles tend to be an expensive recreational choice already. However, plenty of people of modest means still seem to make the sacrifices necessary in order to own one. My own experience has been with motorcycles where, at one stage, my desire to run powerful Japanese fours resulted in my getting most of my nutrition from the returned tray trollies in the university canteen, because almost my entire meagre income, after rent, was going on insurance, petrol, chains and tyres. An extreme example, perhaps, but an illustration that even as the IC vehicle becomes more and more expensive to run, those who really really want one will find a way to do so. Those less motivated will find something else on which to lavish their attentions. Sometimes we just can't afford to do the things we'd like. 'Twas ever thus.

Edited May 25, 2018 by PatB

[Guest]

If someone sold the Zoe after 8 months, it was presumably not the right car for them.

 

 

There are always barely used cars available. Mine was a little over a year old with four hundred miles on it. Did someone buy the wrong car or did the dealer sell it to themselves to boost their figures?

[Jonboy]

It will help if we, as a society, can lose the idea that we must own a vehicle capable of undertaking our most demanding task, even if we only do that task once or twice a year. Here in Western Australia, for example, most vehicles spend their lives operating in an area approximately 100 miles by 30 miles, with road conditions significantly better than those in most UK cities. Yes, it gets a bit hot sometimes but it's otherwise a fairly undemanding driving environment. In spite of this we all tell ourselves and the world that we're a state of huge distances and harsh conditions so we really really need all those V8 Toyota Land cruisers that spend most of their time stationary within 25 miles of Perth's GPO. In reality, most of us could do the majority of our motoring quite adequately in a Kia Picanto (or EV equivalent) and put the savings towards hiring a suitable vehicle for the annual trip up the coast/across the Nullabor. From some of the posts above, the same mentality (or a variation thereof) seems to exist in the UK too.

There is also a strong tendency to assume that both EV technology and the electrical distribution system will remain in their 2018 state indefinitely. That seems to be a rather heroic assumption, given the rate and nature of technological change for at least the last 200 years.

I agree that EVs are not yet the solution for everyone. For some they may never be, or at least not within an easily foreseeable time. But they already have the capability to be practical for many more than currently use them, and the capability and affordability will only increase with time. Bear in mind that it's only a decade or so since the ghastly G-Wiz was being flogged to a naive public. Practical and available EVs have come an awfully long way since then.

The issue with this that the uk car hire companies use a surge pricing model. I had a Vauxhall Adam from enterprise a few weeks back. I booked for a week for around £101, I then saught to extend for 2 days and was offered a rare of £152, negiotated down to £62ish. Apparently they charge based on the number of enquiries their website is receiving.

 

Throw in demand of bank holidays etc where everyone is moving at once to your proposal and I don’t think the hire market is predictable enough to foster the change you suggest.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Jonboy

[PatB]

The issue with this that the uk car hire companies use a surge pricing model. I had a Vauxhall Adam from enterprise a few weeks back. I booked for a week for around £101, I then saught to extend for 2 days and was offered a rare of £152, negiotated down to £62ish. Apparently they charge based on the number of enquiries their website is receiving.

 

Throw in demand of bank holidays etc where everyone is moving at once to your proposal and I don’t think the hire market is predictable enough to foster the change you suggest.

 

Perhaps not, although, again, I don't see the rental market as necessarily remaining in a state of stasis for the rest of time. As part of an overall transport system the rental industry will almost certainly change as the system as a whole changes.

 

Even as things stand now, though, depending on the difference between an individual's typical use and their most demanding use, there may still be savings to be made by buying for the former and renting for the latter, even if the rental companies price gouge at times of peak demand. Again, it may not be a solution for everybody, but it might be interesting for people to look at the numbers for their own case and see. That big engine, all that extra luggage space, the extra gubbins involved in a 4WD system, etc. etc. all have a cost which adds up considerably over time. Maybe it's not worth paying that cost when not using what it's buying.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The issue with this that the uk car hire companies use a surge pricing model. I had a Vauxhall Adam from enterprise a few weeks back. I booked for a week for around £101, I then saught to extend for 2 days and was offered a rare of £152, negiotated down to £62ish. Apparently they charge based on the number of enquiries their website is receiving.

 

Throw in demand of bank holidays etc where everyone is moving at once to your proposal and I don’t think the hire market is predictable enough to foster the change you suggest.

 

That's the current market though.

When the EV/IC model framework of the future is thrown into the mix there will be far more cars required on a far more regular basis by an increasing number of people, so ome would hope(!) that there would be a bigger market with more competition and prices might(!) reduce accordingly.

 

Mike.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It will help if we, as a society, can lose the idea that we must own a vehicle capable of undertaking our most demanding task, even if we only do that task once or twice a year. Here in Western Australia, for example, most vehicles spend their lives operating in an area approximately 100 miles by 30 miles, with road conditions significantly better than those in most UK cities. Yes, it gets a bit hot sometimes but it's otherwise a fairly undemanding driving environment. In spite of this we all tell ourselves and the world that we're a state of huge distances and harsh conditions so we really really need all those V8 Toyota Land cruisers that spend most of their time stationary within 25 miles of Perth's GPO. In reality, most of us could do the majority of our motoring quite adequately in a Kia Picanto (or EV equivalent) and put the savings towards hiring a suitable vehicle for the annual trip up the coast/across the Nullabor. From some of the posts above, the same mentality (or a variation thereof) seems to exist in the UK too.

 

There is also a strong tendency to assume that both EV technology and the electrical distribution system will remain in their 2018 state indefinitely. That seems to be a rather heroic assumption, given the rate and nature of technological change for at least the last 200 years.

 

I agree that EVs are not yet the solution for everyone. For some they may never be, or at least not within an easily foreseeable time. But they already have the capability to be practical for many more than currently use them, and the capability and affordability will only increase with time. Bear in mind that it's only a decade or so since the ghastly G-Wiz was being flogged to a naive public. Practical and available EVs have come an awfully long way since then.

 

Pat,

 

I agree that we need a change in our attitude but as Jonboy points out, the facility/support to do so doesn't yet exist. I would be happy to use a small car for local trips, but need something a little larger with good range at least twice a month. 

 

The "status" of vehicle ownership also has to be considered. Unless owning a small, efficient, environmentally friendly car is better at impressing the other parents on the school run, trip to the weekend cottage etc. than a Range Rover, Audi Q6, BMW X6, etc. many will not be interested. Of course, they are the group that can afford the larger and more expensive EV's so probably will be among the early adopters of those, to prove their green credentials. Why people buy the cars that they do, as with most significant purchases, is usually driven by a number of factors of which practicality  is just one.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I’ve noticed a small outbreak of Teslas and electric AFVs in the school car park.

[spikey]

The "status" of vehicle ownership also has to be considered. Unless owning a small, efficient, environmentally friendly car is better at impressing the other parents on the school run, trip to the weekend cottage etc. than a Range Rover, Audi Q6, BMW X6, etc. many will not be interested. Of course, they are the group that can afford the larger and more expensive EV's so probably will be among the early adopters of those, to prove their green credentials. Why people buy the cars that they do, as with most significant purchases, is usually driven by a number of factors of which practicality  is just one.

Hasn't it been the case for years now that most people in fact buy a particular car because in the first instance they fancy owning one then they came up with all manner of reasons why that particular vehicle was most suitable for their needs?

 

Be that as it may, Jol Wilkinson is dead right about the status aspect. It always amuses me to see the Chelsea Tractor brigade turn up at the dump with their recycling. They invariably leave the engine running while they go about their business ...

[298]

I bought an 8 month old Renault Zoe recently, it's the quick charging 40kW version. 

 

...

 

The interior is pretty basic, but it's comfortable enough.

One downfall of the Zoe in the past has been it's cheap PCP leases, so if you were lucky enough to get a dealer to "sell" you one instead of a Diseasal Clio a few years ago and now want a new car today but don't have any equity, base model ICE cars can look better. But the comparisons used aren't always realistic, as you have to look at an reasonably high spec Auto to get the same equipment as the Zoe.

 

There are always barely used cars available. Mine was a little over a year old with four hundred miles on it. Did someone buy the wrong car or did the dealer sell it to themselves to boost their figures?

Could have been for a number of reasons, although the mileage does correspond to a number of ex-dealer demonstrators I've seen advertised elsewhere and the age is roughly how long hire companies keep their vehicles for.

 

Cost wise (which isn't how cars are sold nowadays, it's always a monthly figure), I think our Zoe has been cheaper than anything else we've had in the last 20 years.

 

For the first 12 months / 4000 miles of ownership:

 

Battery lease £600

Fuel £200

Insurance £300 (£50 more than a 10yr old Punto)

Tyre wear £100

 

Servicing, Tax £ Free

 

Depreciation £ negligible- similar age cars are on Auto Trader for what we paid last April, and the way RCI is set up means we effectively got the Luxe pack and metallic paint for free. Our armrest has been muchly coverted...!

 

Yes there have been setup costs such as the Granny cable and home charger, but the former still has a resale value and the latter could have a very long life.

[MarkC]

The technical term is WAFI.  

Definitely. I'm just happy that my present ship's trading pattern keeps us clear of The Solent in particular...

 

I think that most, if not all, of us shellbacks will have tales of encounters with WAFIs - I certainly have several 

[Guest]

On the subject of boats....

 

 

https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

[jjb1970]

Battery powered ships are high on many agendas, and I’m not talking small riverine/estuary vessels but large sea going ships.

[Titan]

Oh dear. I will endeavor not to be a SAFI...

 

And there might be a few environmental issues too...

 

[Nearholmer]

Well, while we are on old-style launches, here is a battery-electric one from about 1880.

 

And, for good measure, a petrol-battery hybrid car (Porsche, no less) from about 1900, and a petrol-battery hybrid railcar, the first version of which hit the rails in about 1888, although this is a late-1890s one.

 

Do these count as ‘very late news’ under the thread heading?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Ron Ron Ron]

The 40kWh version has a pretty big limitation...

Nissan still haven't fitted the Leaf with battery cooling. With the denser battery in the new Leaf it gets hot and throttles rapid charging after the second or third charge. If you're doing really long journeys it's actually quicker in an old 24kWh car which will charge faster.

 

The 60kWh Leaf next year will have cooling.

 

 

RapidGate.

 

I wasn't aware of that issue until yesterday.

Nissan have rather shot themselves in both feet on this issue.

 

 

 

 

[Nick C]

Cost wise (which isn't how cars are sold nowadays, it's always a monthly figure), I think our Zoe has been cheaper than anything else we've had in the last 20 years.

 

For the first 12 months / 4000 miles of ownership:

 

Battery lease £600

Fuel £200

Insurance £300 (£50 more than a 10yr old Punto)

Tyre wear £100

 

 

So just taking the fuel-related costs into account (as Insurance and Tyre wear are common to an I/C vehicle) - that's £800 for 4000 miles, so 20p/mile. 

 

For comparison, Unleaded at my nearest petrol station is 129.9p/l at the moment - £5.89/gallon, so 20p/mile would be the equivalent of 29.5mpg in a petrol car... Of course your economics improve if you do a higher milage, wheras they stay steady for an IC car...

[Fat Controller]

There are always barely used cars available. Mine was a little over a year old with four hundred miles on it. Did someone buy the wrong car or did the dealer sell it to themselves to boost their figures?

Ex-demonstrator? Following in my dad's footsteps, we've bought these for our last three vehicles, getting a very useful price reduction for a few thousand on the clock.

[Guest]

So just taking the fuel-related costs into account (as Insurance and Tyre wear are common to an I/C vehicle) - that's £800 for 4000 miles, so 20p/mile. 

 

For comparison, Unleaded at my nearest petrol station is 129.9p/l at the moment - £5.89/gallon, so 20p/mile would be the equivalent of 29.5mpg in a petrol car... Of course your economics improve if you do a higher milage, wheras they stay steady for an IC car...

 

So. Lifetime stats for my Leaf over 14 months:

 

19,820 miles travelled 4,859 kWh used.

Assume I take my home rate of 12.6p/kWh for all use. It mostly is. Public charging varies between 30p/kWh and free.

I've spent £612 on fuel.

Taking my previous 1.2 Honda Jazz which did 50mpg the fuel bill would be £2,335

 

A 'major' service on the Leaf was £127 Jazz would be more but if came with five of them free.

 

The pre-reg Leaf was £1000 more than the Jazz cost new (base one no AC)

Looking pretty compelling....

 

 

Even more compelling would be if Green Energy ever turned up to fit my smart meter so I could charge at off-peak times. That would take the cost down to £255 for almost 20k miles....

 

 

Probably ought to be a factor added on top somewhere for charging losses.

[Guest]

Ex-demonstrator? Following in my dad's footsteps, we've bought these for our last three vehicles, getting a very useful price reduction for a few thousand on the clock.

 

I think it was a pre-reg one that the workshop boys had run some errands in. The super low mileage and scuffs in the boot don't quite fit a demonstrator.

It was registered to the dealer.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ex-demonstrator? Following in my dad's footsteps, we've bought these for our last three vehicles, getting a very useful price reduction for a few thousand on the clock.

 

Yes, I'm an ex-demonstrator fan too. My mum had a great Hillman Imp that way. It had luxurious extras such as a heater!

 

More recently (1992), Dad bought his Clio that way. It was only ever "demonstrated" to one customer - him. We had done the deal with the agent even before it was delivered

[jjb1970]

Car list prices are often a bit of a meaningless figure. My current car has a list price of £40k, I got it for £28k brand new, a combination of the ruthless competition between the big three German brands in that sector and the model being within 18 months or so of replacement). OK it was a car ordered by the dealer from the factory so colour and spec was fixed but that also meant it was delivered within a couple of weeks of signing on the dotted line as it was already en-route from Germany. Low cost service pack and excellent mpg mean running costs are low and insurance is less than £300 pa. It's an awful lot of car, the boot takes the boys ice hockey kit bag (which is huge) and weekend bags for a family of four comfortably, rear space is excellent and the cabin is very plush with a lot of toys which although they may seem a bit pointless are nice to have. For example my wife is about 25cm shorter than I am so electric seat with memory is very handy (even if I probably wouldn't pay extra as an option), as are heated seats in winter. Four zone climate control is unnecessary but it also stops a lot of arguments over whether the vent system is set too high or too low. Ditto auto headlight high beam and smart headlights. Like I say, after getting used to a DSG box I wouldn't want to go back to a manual (unless it was for a proper high performance car where the manual box can be part of the experience). A 65Lt tank and genuine 65mpg door - door on longer journeys means I can drive around the country and still have fuel in the tank.

For me the big boot is a must, simply because I ferry the boy around and for away games we often make a family weekend out of it. Although we could live with less cabin space it is undeniably nice to have such generous cabin space (especially once you get used to it). A lot of the toys I could lose but a good stereo is something I'd want and now I like multi-zone climate control too even if it wasn't a deal breaker. Electric drivers seat with memory I could lose but equally if given the choice of having it I'd have it again. Heated seats are nice in winter. Like a lot of things, I don't need a lot of these toys but I like them.

I'd happily switch to an EV or PHEV providing a similar spec. I seriously considered a Tesla Model S but it was more than I wanted to spend at that time. The Model S already offers everything I want and within 2 - 3 years it will be one of many. Quite honestly I'd happily take an EV version of the A6 as it is. When my wife replaces her Golf I'm almost certain she'll go for an EV, as a second car the range is much less important and there are already some excellent EVs at prices we'd happily pay in that sector.

[Guest]

 When my wife replaces her Golf I'm almost certain she'll go for an EV, as a second car the range is much less important and there are already some excellent EVs at prices we'd happily pay in that sector.

 

Pre-advice... Should you wife go for the electric version of the Golf plump for the optional heat-pump heater. (or haggle for it. It's £800!!) The stock heater is resistive and running a three bar electric fire under the dash does not help your range...

[jjb1970]

Pre-advice... Should you wife go for the electric version of the Golf plump for the optional heat-pump heater. (or haggle for it. It's £800!!) The stock heater is resistive and running a three bar electric fire under the dash does not help your range...

 

Thanks for that, interesting. I think the Leaf actually looks more attractive as I tend to think that EVs developed from the outset to be EVs will work better than adapting IC platforms (particularly with respect to packaging) even if the styling is kept conventional. Although in fairness I couldn't see much difference in boot space in the Golf EV which is one of the problems with some cars conventional IC platforms adapted to EV or hybrid.