Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Guest]

Yeah, that is the point. At very very best the charging is slow.

 

 

But it doesn't matter since most of the time you aren't actually driving your car.

Today I'm doing something over 100 miles in the 24kWh Leaf and doing two charges. Charge time is irrelevant since I don't have to go anywhere special do it. 

[Guest]

It's not absurd at all.  What an arrogant comment.

 

Not sure how that's arrogant. Factual is what it is. You are never going to charge at the 100A of you house fuse.

[jjb1970]

I think it'll be interesting to see what happens to the automotive market over the next few years as autonomous cars mature. I can imagine a market split between a mass market of commoditised autonomous EVs which may be based on a transport on demand principle or traditional ownership, and a smaller enthusiast market for higher spec and performance EVs. I think there will always be a market for a performance or luxury premium product, but I can see that once most cars are autonomous then they become little more than the equivalent of just another white good. Technically, the expertise to develop and manufacture a good power train was quite a barrier to entry but moving to a market where any manufacturer can buy in a battery pack and motor (there's nothing fancy about an electric motor) will open up opportunities and dissolve some of the market differentials I think.

 

And of course, hydrogen EVs are still a distinct possibility as a long term solution.

[Guest]

With EV usage of 20 miles approx a day, but then long motorway stints to family 250-300 miles away for child minding duties every 6 or 8 weeks or so, how long are we talking of for charging stops?  With the old Mondeo we'll normally have one watering stop of around 20 minutes on such a journey; I imagine the EV would require a longer stop for refeshment. Why did the interchangeable fuel/power/battery cell not take off?

 

You have a few options:

 

Tesla. Do it one. Simples.

40kWh Zoe. Stop for lunch instead of 20 min.

Citroen C-Zero. Stop for 15min every 50 miles. But it is cheap and perfect for your usual 20 miles a day use.

[Horsetan]

Horses are carnivorous?!

 

I never knew that.

 

I'll be a lot more careful around them in future.

The other horse I ride hoovers up entire bags of salt 'n vinegar crisps.

 

PS: there does seem, from what I understand, to be an awful lot of sh1t-shovelling involved in horse-keeping, which is an ever odder thing to want to do in your spare time .....

It's a different type of sh** to the kind you have to deal with in your day job....and did I say "job"? I meant "work".

[DIW]

The other limit is the capacity of the local network.

 

Houses tend to have service fuses under 100 amps. At 240v that is 24000kw. So even using 100% of your houses electricity supply would still take about 100 minutes to recharge a 40kwh battery (realistically enough for a 240 mile range at best). Using a 13amp socket it would take about 13 hours

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

Up until the beginning of the 70s it was normal for the fuse fitted at the meter position to be 60A. If you have an older house, there is a possibility that the fuse is still 60A. The change to 100A fuses was a result of the popularity of storage heaters and off-peak tariffs (e.g. Economy 7). These needed a higher fuse rating to take the heater loads, and so 100A fuses were fitted to those installations. It soon became the standard to fit 100A everywhere; it certainly was by the mid-late 70s when I was an apprentice at the local electricity board.

 

The local distribution network though isn't designed to supply 100A to each dwelling simultaneously - an amount of diversity is factored in, so that there isn't a whole load of copper (or more likely aluminium) sitting n the ground doing very little.

 

That brings in another part of the modern story. The older traditional supply cables usually contained four copper conductors - three phases plus neutral - plus a sheath (which formed the earth continuity). Often there was a steel armour in addition. Various variations on this were extant throughout the country, depending on the area board policy. For a domestic supply a two-core cable [(one of the phases is taken as the 'live') and neutral] with sheath (earth) brought the supply to the house.

 

For overhead line supplies, there used to be five separate conductors (3 phases, neutral, earth), and three conductors to the dwelling (live, neutral, earth).

 

Many houses also had a local earth, either an earth stake, or the water pipes.

 

What has this got to do with electric vehicles? Bear with me, I'll get there.

 

Around the late 70s a new version of distribution came in, called Protective Multiple Earthing (PME). In short this combined the neutral conductor into the earth sheath (the cables were known as CNE cables, for Combined Neutral and Earth). This meant a saving by only having the three 'live' conductors (the  three phases) in the cable, while the sheath became the combined neutral and earth. The CNE cables by and large became aluminium. The steel armour also disappeared. The idea for earthing was to earth the neutral conductor at the electricity substation and at the cable far end (occasionally along the route too if the cable was long enough and taking in to account other ifs, buts and maybes).

 

The joint in the ground between the main cable and the smaller service cables to the houses were also simplified - one joint would serve multiple dwellings, so that several houses in a row would be on the same phase rather than each dwelling having its own cable joint and there being a 1-2-3-1-2-3 arrangement of the phases along the street. The service cable to the house was now of course only one conductor in a sheath (effectively a coaxial cable).

 

Now - electric vehicles - the imminent arrival of the 18th edition of the wiring regulations BS7671 or the IET Wiring Regulations addresses electric vehicle chargers at domestic properties, and bans chargers at PME installations unless some particular steps are taken to prevent electric shock from the vehicle due to a charger fault. Among other things there will need to be the return of the Earth stake, and some clever stuff (probably built in to the charger, but not necessarily so).

 

For the folk at the sharp end of the industry there are courses to learn about the changes from the 17th to the 18 edition of the regulations. If you currently have a charging set-up which is in accordance with the current regulations, it may well be beneficial to contact your local electrical installation professional to ensure that what you have is still considered safe.

[Kickstart]

But it doesn't matter since most of the time you aren't actually driving your car.

Today I'm doing something over 100 miles in the 24kWh Leaf and doing two charges. Charge time is irrelevant since I don't have to go anywhere special do it.

But much of the time that is not possible. Charge time is very relevant. Certainly is for a relative who has a Leaf as a company perk. Their comment was the cost of keeping the kids amused while waiting for it to charge was more than the electricity!

 

Not sure how that's arrogant. Factual is what it is. You are never going to charge at the 100A of you house fuse.

Which is part of my point. Whatever happens to battery tech, network restrictions will limit charging times.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Jol Wilkinson]

 Exactly. To me the motor vehicle is simply a utility, and the potential for simpler operation provided by electric is very appealing. And coming in the foreseeable future there's the fully autonomous electric car so I don't even have to drive the bloody thing either once the vision, reactions, (and any other random bits and pieces) have started to fail from old age and decrepitude. All I will have to do is get in and say one of eight words, pub, model shop, doctor, hospital, dentist, barber, supermarket, home. (I know it will be a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.) 

 

 

I believe it will take some time before autonomous vehicles will  be allowed to operate without the driver having to be able to take over control in the case of an emergency. Hence the idea of sitting back and partaking in RMweb forums on a mobile phone while being driven to the destination of your choice and ignoring what is happening around you will be some way off, especially if the driver is also held legally responsible for the actions of his vehicle.

[Guest]

I believe it will take some time before autonomous vehicles will  be allowed to operate without the driver having to be able to take over control in the case of an emergency. Hence the idea of sitting back and partaking in RMweb forums on a mobile phone while being driven to the destination of your choice and ignoring what is happening around you will be some way off, especially if the driver is also held legally responsible for the actions of his vehicle.

 

I wonder what the sums are if you ditch your car altogether and just take Ubers....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I think it'll be interesting to see what happens to the automotive market over the next few years as autonomous cars mature. I can imagine a market split between a mass market of commoditised autonomous EVs which may be based on a transport on demand principle or traditional ownership, and a smaller enthusiast market for higher spec and performance EVs...

 The volume market, however it evolves, will far outweigh the car enthusiast market. Don't forget that a whole new user group - children - are going to be using autonomous vehicles (on some properly restricted basis which is yet to be defined) because they are going to effectively kill off road public transport in all but densely populated urban areas. There's rafts of implications in the emergence of autonomous vehicles.

 

Horses are carnivorous?!

 Famously - reputedly - racehorses get fuel additive in the form of meat to give them maximum engine output for the racing. Never having owned or operated a hayburner I have no idea, but it was a commonplace opinion among the first shop floor operatives I ever supervised, and their expertise on the gees was quite something. (Leading to the regular difficulty of hangover induced underperformance the following day.)

[Ron Ron Ron]

Range anxiety ???

 

Here's a little snippet of information.

 

Apparently, the AA rescue 2,100 drivers of petrol and diesel cars who've run out of fuel....every week .

 

I don't know what the figures are for members of the RAC, Green Flag etc.

 

 

.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 Yes, but only for the income class that maintains horses at present.

 

 

....and that is a surprisingly wide class.

 

Including hoods in da Bronx dat drink Guinness.

 

Mike.

[DIW]

Here's a little bit more regarding electricity supply companies and electric vehicles (skip this if you're not into historical stuff, there's bound to be another up-to-date post soon!).

 

Back when most household had their milk delivered and supermarkets were few and far between, the milk was delivered usually by electric vehicles like this or this. Nothing complicated; a substantial chassis, lots of lead-acid batteries and rather slow.

 

Come forward to the late 70s (when the fuses were changing etc as noted above in post #232). There was a push to develop the electric vehicle beyond the milk float, and several concepts were put forward. Those with which I was familiar were the Lucas Bedford (we only had a couple at our office) and the Dodge 50-series. We had a lot of the Dodges (referred to in the second to last paragraph of this 1982 article). The word around the office was that these vehicles used the full 6 tons of the then permitted allowance of the standard driving licence. Half a ton for payload, half a ton for vehicle chassis and 5 tons for batteries! There is probably some apocryphal content to that split, since the chassis was of substantial steel girders in order to take the battery weight. However the fourth to last paragraph of the 1982 article describes the figures for the Crompton (another vehicle designed for the same uses), and the figures are similar to those of the Dodge. All the vans were recharged overnight at the offices.

 

The Dodges certainly had great acceleration! The range was limited of course, but I would assume that our District was selected for testing the vehicles because it was not entirely vast, and had a good mix of road types.

 

OK would I have a modern electric vehicle?

 

Not yet.

 

I'll wait to see what the next evolution of battery technology brings with regard to range, because I am located in the countryside. The car's available carrying capacity also needs to be considered for layout transportation.

Edited May 24, 2018 by DIW

[Reorte]

Range anxiety ???

 

Here's a little snippet of information.

 

Apparently, the AA rescue 2,100 drivers of petrol and diesel cars who've run out of fuel....every week .

 

I don't know what the figures are for members of the RAC, Green Flag etc..

And with the greater range and much more convenient refilling of petrol and diesel cars when out and about can you imagine how many more it would be if everyone was driving electrics!

[Nearholmer]

Two maps, which I suggest might allow us to take a good stab at predicting EV take-up by area, over coming years ......

 

My suggestion is that areas that have both high population density, and high prosperity will take-up fastest, and areas that have both low population density and low prosperity will take-up slowest.

 

On that basis, I suggest that West Wales is probably the least hopeful area in which to open an EV dealership, while SW London might be the best (it's probably already got several).

 

The other map shows where charging points are, which I thought might help predict take-up too, but I'm not sure it helps.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Jol Wilkinson]

Range anxiety ???

 

Here's a little snippet of information.

 

Apparently, the AA rescue 2,100 drivers of petrol and diesel cars who've run out of fuel....every week .

 

I don't know what the figures are for members of the RAC, Green Flag etc.

 

 

.

 

Many years ago the Car Manufacturer for whom I worked set up an owner/ assistance/recovery programme with the RAC, who stated that  over 95% of call outs related to what they termed as "owner responsibility". That included punctures but essentially meant that the owner had failed to maintain the vehicle correctly thus causing the fault and that genuine mechanical failure outside the owners influence was quite rare.

 

So failing to use or  "run" your car properly is quite common for British drivers.

[runs as required]

I wonder what the sums are if you ditch your car altogether and just take Ubers....

I imagine this will just be like it was from the 1840s on for a century until postwar mass car ownerhip transformed Britain.

I just hope we have a Government that stops the operation being  be Uber. 

But I'd be for some enterprise like the new ECML set-up as an operator that also collated the trip data and passed it to the planners

dh

[Guest]

Loving Rich Rebuild's video where he powers up a Tesla that was under water for a week before he jet-washed the inside of it....

[Ozexpatriate]

My current veteran does anyway. It would be much more expedient if horses had evolved to eat, say, bales of twenty and fifty-pound notes....

You could always try yachting (analogous to standing in the shower tearing up £20 notes.)

[jjb1970]

You could always try yachting (analogous to standing in the shower tearing up £20 notes.)

 

The technical term is WAFI.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by jjb1970

[runs as required]

Two maps, which I suggest might allow us to take a good stab at predicting EV take-up by area,

My suggestion is that areas that have both high population density, and high prosperity will take-up fastest, and areas that have both low population density and low prosperity will take-up slowest.

 

On that basis, I suggest that West Wales is probably the least hopeful area in which to open an EV dealership, while SW London might be the best (it's probably already got several).

 

I've just returned from a few days in south and west Cumbria (Walney Island etc. up to Maryport). Astonished to see that coastal strip is not a red area on the prosperity map.

Truly England's forgotten edge - it makes Middlesbrough look well-to-do.

It must be because it is subsumed into South Lakeland areas like Windermere (hotspot for steam yacht mech. eng. specialists ).

dh

[Horsetan]

I wonder what the sums are if you ditch your car altogether and just take Ubers....

I'd say you stand a good chance of being driven by someone who has an impressive criminal record.

[Guest]

I'd say you stand a good chance of being driven by someone who has an impressive criminal record.

 

Better that than an unimpressive one.

[Buhar]

I bought an 8 month old Renault Zoe recently, it's the quick charging 40kW version.  In Scotland there is a big advantage in that the charging network is pretty good and, for the moment, it's free.  I met a guy when plugged in on a street charger and he hasn't got a charger at home and for the past year he's been using the local network, an hour or so a few times a week, but zero fuel cost.

 

In the cold weather it was showing 130 miles range fully charged on the guess-ometer, this evening it showed 175 miles.  I do a 160 mile round trip once a week or so and if I go at 70 mph, it delivers about 25-30% less than it's guess when I start the journey.  Dodging Eddie Stobarts at 60mph and it's pretty much bang on to judge the range.  An hour on a street charger at the other end gets me home fine.  For local journeys (40 to 60 miles round trips) it's no issue at all.

 

The interior is pretty basic, but it's comfortable enough.  Unfortunately it can't be fitted with a tow-bar so I have to keep my petrol car for trailer work otherwise I'd be content to rely on the Zoe entirely.  If I wanted to do a very long journey without an hour's break every 120 miles or so, I'd hire a car.

 

The battery is rented (£65 a month) with guarantee that will rectify any loss of health that takes performance below 75%.

 

I think it's DCC ready, so when someone gets a chip sorted that will give me the sounds of a Royal Scot synchronised with the accelerator, I'll be more than content.

[PatB]

It will help if we, as a society, can lose the idea that we must own a vehicle capable of undertaking our most demanding task, even if we only do that task once or twice a year. Here in Western Australia, for example, most vehicles spend their lives operating in an area approximately 100 miles by 30 miles, with road conditions significantly better than those in most UK cities. Yes, it gets a bit hot sometimes but it's otherwise a fairly undemanding driving environment. In spite of this we all tell ourselves and the world that we're a state of huge distances and harsh conditions so we really really need all those V8 Toyota Land cruisers that spend most of their time stationary within 25 miles of Perth's GPO. In reality, most of us could do the majority of our motoring quite adequately in a Kia Picanto (or EV equivalent) and put the savings towards hiring a suitable vehicle for the annual trip up the coast/across the Nullabor. From some of the posts above, the same mentality (or a variation thereof) seems to exist in the UK too.

 

There is also a strong tendency to assume that both EV technology and the electrical distribution system will remain in their 2018 state indefinitely. That seems to be a rather heroic assumption, given the rate and nature of technological change for at least the last 200 years.

 

I agree that EVs are not yet the solution for everyone. For some they may never be, or at least not within an easily foreseeable time. But they already have the capability to be practical for many more than currently use them, and the capability and affordability will only increase with time. Bear in mind that it's only a decade or so since the ghastly G-Wiz was being flogged to a naive public. Practical and available EVs have come an awfully long way since then.