Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[298]

I think as EVs offer a genuine 300-400 mile range the range issue will be moot for most people. For those who drive up and down the motorway all day doing more than that then fuel cell EVs will probably be a better technology.

You could have a 1000 mile range battery but at some point you'd have to put back in what's been taken out, which is why fast charging is more important than absolute range.

 

"300 miles to Cornwall" keeps getting quoted to me, but to get home on the Saturday would mean putting the Car in charge sometime on Thursday to ensure it was fully charged from a campsite hook up.

[jjb1970]

I think the issue for car batteries getting the capacity right. As you say, the recharge time is crucial, if the battery could be re-charged in five minutes then even a small capacity would not be an issue. A very high capacity battery offering a 1000 mile range would be great but it'd be heavy, demand a lot of material and be expensive for limited real utility. I think 300 - 400 miles genuine range is more than sufficient for most realistic journey's, with re-charge for additional range. There are battery chemistries in development promising to slash re-charge times and increase energy density but even today I think cars like those made by Tesla offer more than sufficient range, great performance and sell on the basis of being a genuinely excellent product which people would rather have than a petrol car. I still think that if extreme range and fast replenishment is necessary then fuel cells may be the way ahead. There is now serious money going into producing clean and low cost hydrogen, and fuel cells are actually a very mature, simple technology.

Edited May 23, 2018 by jjb1970

[Kickstart]

There are battery chemistries in development promising to slash re-charge times and increase energy density

The other limit is the capacity of the local network.

 

Houses tend to have service fuses under 100 amps. At 240v that is 24000kw. So even using 100% of your houses electricity supply would still take about 100 minutes to recharge a 40kwh battery (realistically enough for a 240 mile range at best). Using a 13amp socket it would take about 13 hours

 

All the best

 

Katy

[number6]

What real world situation involves arriving home after driving 240 miles and then setting off on another 240 mile drive 100 minutes later?!    For most people its 2.4 miles or 24 miles...

 

I also don't buy the 'you will kill the local network' thing - smart technology helps spread that load as we don't all have to charge at the same moment. It is something that needs addressing for everyday consumer load anyway. Nissan has a system where the car can deliver back to the grid and then be recharged later in the night when demands are different. Joining up house and vehicles is such a good idea. 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I'm a bit unconvinced by all this talk of needing very long ranges.

 

How far, or how many hours, do people actually drive, between stops of say half an hour or more?

 

The average distance driven per car, per day in the U.K. is c20 miles.

 

Yes, that is an average, and yes, most of us do make the occasional long trip, and while I don't know about anyone else, I certainly stop for a PNB after no more than two and a half hours, say 150 miles, less if it's a family journey.

 

Even a person who is "on the road" as part of their job presumably stops to transact their business, and have a PNB.

 

So, get charging points sorted out ......

[298]

And that's exactly why i don't want an electric and will never want one. I want the burble of a nice engine, the vibration, the manual gear stick alive under my hand.....

That's what driving is all about for me. Not some soulless, sanitized, beige experience.

 

I know of someone who works evenings as a takeaway delivery driver, just so he can drive his EV even more.

 

The experience reminds me of the freedom I had when I'd first passed my test 25 years ago, but without the orange Morris Ital.

[Guest]

Nissan has a system where the car can deliver back to the grid and then be recharged later in the night when demands are different. Joining up house and vehicles is such a good idea.

 

Forget the Nissan vehicle to grid charger. It's way too expensive although in Japan it will run your house for two days if there's a power cut.

 

The Indra one OVO are using for their trial is much more interesting. It only does 7kW but is much cheaper. I don't know how cheap but it's a lot less than the eight grand the Nissan one costs.

[jjb1970]

What real world situation involves arriving home after driving 240 miles and then setting off on another 240 mile drive 100 minutes later?!    For most people its 2.4 miles or 24 miles...

 

I can think of plenty of real world situations where current EV range limitations are problematic. The boy regularly plays games at away venues where the round trip is more than 240 miles and there are no EV charging points at the venue. The two parents who drive Tesla's both admit it is a complete pain in the backside to have to drop people off then drive off to a charge point and make their own way back to the venue, and sometimes to have to take extended breaks en route. We go up to Cumbria as that is my home, to get to where I stay is approx. 250 miles and there aren't many EV charging points in the bit of rural Cumbria I go to. I'm not really enthusiastic about driving around in a series of short hops punctuated by recharging breaks. I reckon a 300 mile range would meet my needs with acceptable compromises, less than 300 miles and it becomes a pain in the backside until technology develops to the point that battery recharging is equivalent to re-filling a petrol tank. By way of comparison I can drive to Cumbria and back, and do a bit of driving around up there on a single tank and still have a third of a tank remaining when I get home. Do I expect an EV to achieve that? No, but I am not especially enthusiastic about most of the shorter legged EVs.

As things currently stand, for my own circumstances a PHEV probably makes more sense than a pure EV. A battery range of 25 miles would cover my driving lots of days whilst meaning there isn't an issue with the longer journeys.

Edited May 24, 2018 by jjb1970

[Zomboid]

PHEVs (and range extenders) look to me to be an interim solution until battery technology improves enough, and charging points become more widely available. The car industry will undoubtedly come up with EVs which have more to offer than blistering straight line speed in due course, but in the same way that steam trains are unlikely to completely disappear, or in the same way that we still keep horses, the internal combustion engine will probably continue indefinitely as a recreational thing.

[jjb1970]

PHEVs (and range extenders) look to me to be an interim solution until battery technology improves enough, and charging points become more widely available. The car industry will undoubtedly come up with EVs which have more to offer than blistering straight line speed in due course, but in the same way that steam trains are unlikely to completely disappear, or in the same way that we still keep horses, the internal combustion engine will probably continue indefinitely as a recreational thing.

Indeed, which is why I think it is important to look at where EVs will be tomorrow, and not just today. There are already EVs I'd happily buy, but I wouldn't be buying them for low cost motoring that's for sure as you could buy a very good petrol or diesel and pay for all the fuel you'd ever use and still be paying a lot less. We're now at a point where EVs are real contenders, the charging network is growing, the electrical supply network is changing etc, but they're not the right solution for all people yet.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am currently looking at the options for SWMBOs next car.

 

With a commute of about 25 miles each way and just occasionally longer journeys, full EV could be an option but I think it will be a plug-in hybrid that gets the vote. We are also looking at solar panels currently so we might actually get paid for the electricity we use in the car.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Bear in mind not everybody in the world lives in a small, densely populated country, with towns and cities relatively close together like the UK and the whole EV situation has to be looked at globally.

To be a bit selfish and quote my own circumstances, although the same applies to many other countries, a range of 200/300/400 miles might be adequate for somewhere like the UK, but my nearest big city is 350 miles away, alright, I don't drive there very often, but an EV isn't currently an option, it would also knacker any plans for driving home, as to factor in the number of recharges to do 1500 miles would add quite a considerable time onto the journey.

EV's are currently in their early development stages relatively speaking, and the sky could be the limit for them, but as I have said before, it's a global picture and other options exist which are more practical on a day to day basis, and I'm not keen on the eggs in one basket approach that is the way at the moment.

 

Mike.

[Fenman]

Bear in mind not everybody in the world lives in a small, densely populated country, with towns and cities relatively close together like the UK and the whole EV situation has to be looked at globally.

To be a bit selfish and quote my own circumstances, although the same applies to many other countries, a range of 200/300/400 miles might be adequate for somewhere like the UK, but my nearest big city is 350 miles away, alright, I don't drive there very often, but an EV isn't currently an option, it would also knacker any plans for driving home, as to factor in the number of recharges to do 1500 miles would add quite a considerable time onto the journey.

EV's are currently in their early development stages relatively speaking, and the sky could be the limit for them, but as I have said before, it's a global picture and other options exist which are more practical on a day to day basis, and I'm not keen on the eggs in one basket approach that is the way at the moment.

 

Mike.

 

I can see your point about your own circumstances, but I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Are you suggesting that, because someone in, say, the Australian outback may find EVs actually impractical to use, the UK should ensure that petrol and diesel cars can carry on with no change?

 

I think it's sensible that each country (or group of countries) can set its own regulations and taxation policy according to its circumstances (and densely populated western Europe, where in any case air pollution might be a higher priority than some other places, will likely have very different priorities than, say, the remote vastness of Brazil). But we do need to get a balance - it's a bit like the handful of Highlands cattle farmers setting the time zone for the whole of the UK in accordance with their own priorities, irrespective of the higher death rates that the entire population then has to bear.

 

There's an appallingly cynical line in The Handmaid's Tale: "better is always worse for some". Generally that's true: but it doesn't mean that the people getting a worse deal always necessarily have a case to prevent change (eg, motorways, HS2, etc).

 

Paul

Edited May 24, 2018 by Fenman

[jjb1970]

Bear in mind not everybody in the world lives in a small, densely populated country, with towns and cities relatively close together like the UK and the whole EV situation has to be looked at globally.

To be a bit selfish and quote my own circumstances, although the same applies to many other countries, a range of 200/300/400 miles might be adequate for somewhere like the UK, but my nearest big city is 350 miles away, alright, I don't drive there very often, but an EV isn't currently an option, it would also knacker any plans for driving home, as to factor in the number of recharges to do 1500 miles would add quite a considerable time onto the journey.

EV's are currently in their early development stages relatively speaking, and the sky could be the limit for them, but as I have said before, it's a global picture and other options exist which are more practical on a day to day basis, and I'm not keen on the eggs in one basket approach that is the way at the moment.

 

Mike.

 

I think that is true. There are a whole range of variables to consider. For example if I lived in central London (as opposed to working here) I am not sure I'd own a car as the public transport system is so good and it'd make sense to hire a car when necessary. I used to spend a lot of time in Canada and long distance in Canada isn't the same as long distance in Europe.

[Nearholmer]

Somewhere in all this there's a tough bit, which goes along the lines: some people are going to have to adjust their lives to accommodate to the non-availability of IC vehicles, in order for everybody to reap the benefits of reduced environmental harm.

 

Now, I know that statement begs hundreds of questions about whether or not, on a lifecycle basis, EVs actually are any less harmful than IC, but bear with me for a moment, please.

 

If my 'tough statement' is true, then I still don't think there is cause for "stress and fluster", because the rate of changeover is expected to be so slow, at least a 'vehicle life', probably two, and because, sure as eggs is eggs, society will negotiate within itself 'get out clauses' for genuine hardship cases, and genuine cases where it can be clearly demonstrated that a battery-EV would actually be worse.

 

We are now part of a huge social experiment, because I don't think such a big 'technology change' has ever been 'policy driven' before ....... maybe the phasing out of solid fuel to create "smokeless zones" in cities, but even that was small by comparison.

[jjb1970]

I don't think the transition will be policy driven. The initial impetus was policy driven, and politicians will want to claim they're doing something, but the transition will happen and accelerate more quickly than most anticipate in my view because the market will actually want EVs. If you can adapt to an EV with acceptable compromise why would you want an IC engine? Most people I know (and I can say this for myself) aren't looking at EVs to save the world, to take advantage of grants, to get cheap motoring or anything, they're looking at them because they're increasingly becoming a very attractive option in terms of desirability and performance.

 

To use a railway analogy, I'd put the older EVs as being something like the early Alco-Ingersoll Rand - GE diesel electric locomotives. They demonstrated the technical viability of diesel electric locomotives and that in specific applications such as switching they were superior to steam but in general they offered little reason to change from steam. Go forward ten years and EMC were building the Zephyr trains which demonstrated a clear superiority over steam for high performance passenger use, maybe that is where the Tesla Model S is. Step forward another five years and the EMC FT basically rendered steam obsolete and provided a compelling case for the wholesale abandonment of steam locomotive technology, maybe the equivalents of the EMC FT are cars like the Model 3 and the whole series of new EVs in the pipeline from various manufacturers. Once you get to that point the transition will accelerate and take place far more quickly than people expect I believe.

[Joseph_Pestell]

What I do find strange, at this point in development, is that so many IC vehicles are still in use in contexts where EV should be perfectly practical: urban deliveries, taxis, airport vehicles.

[Reorte]

What I do find strange, at this point in development, is that so many IC vehicles are still in use in contexts where EV should be perfectly practical: urban deliveries, taxis, airport vehicles.

Could be a case where the upfront costs are too offputting, and some of those vehicles last quite a long time, so even if they do go electric it won't be until the existing ones are knackered.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Could be a case where the upfront costs are too offputting, and some of those vehicles last quite a long time, so even if they do go electric it won't be until the existing ones are knackered.

 

The better courier companies replace their vans after 3 - 4 years, depending on mileage. So they could be replacing with electric by now.

 

And upfront costs probably not an issue either. I would be very surprised if these vehicles are not leased rather than purchased.

[Kickstart]

What real world situation involves arriving home after driving 240 miles and then setting off on another 240 mile drive 100 minutes later?!    For most people its 2.4 miles or 24 miles...

Probably true, but that is using every bit of power available to your house (and assuming a 100 amp service fuse - they are often lower). So no lights, kettle, TV, etc, to have that much power to charge the car.

 

As I said, 13 amp socket as the power source and you are looking at 13 hours charge time.

 

I also don't buy the 'you will kill the local network' thing - smart technology helps spread that load as we don't all have to charge at the same moment. It is something that needs addressing for everyday consumer load anyway. Nissan has a system where the car can deliver back to the grid and then be recharged later in the night when demands are different. Joining up house and vehicles is such a good idea.

Maybe, but in that case you can massively add to the charging times

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Jol Wilkinson]

Somewhere in all this there's a tough bit, which goes along the lines: some people are going to have to adjust their lives to accommodate to the non-availability of IC vehicles, in order for everybody to reap the benefits of reduced environmental harm.

 

Now, I know that statement begs hundreds of questions about whether or not, on a lifecycle basis, EVs actually are any less harmful than IC, but bear with me for a moment, please.

 

If my 'tough statement' is true, then I still don't think there is cause for "stress and fluster", because the rate of changeover is expected to be so slow, at least a 'vehicle life', probably two, and because, sure as eggs is eggs, society will negotiate within itself 'get out clauses' for genuine hardship cases, and genuine cases where it can be clearly demonstrated that a battery-EV would actually be worse.

 

We are now part of a huge social experiment, because I don't think such a big 'technology change' has ever been 'policy driven' before ....... maybe the phasing out of solid fuel to create "smokeless zones" in cities, but even that was small by comparison.

 

The problem here will be is that those most adversely affected will be the least able to do much about it and in whom the politicians and the "market" has the least interest.

 

As for a social experiment, that assumes someone is managing the process and assessing the results with a view to producing an effective outcome.

 

The average mileage debate is a bit of a red herring too, what people want Is a vehicle that will provide their usual longest journey mileage - irrespective of how frequent that may be - with the least inconvenience. For me that is a round trip of 300 miles in one day, to a variety of possible destinations. The longest one way "regular" trip is 320 miles, which I would do with a 45 minute break. However, we might want to drive to Edinburgh or Cornwall in one day (as we have done several times in the last few years) which is 400 miles.  My current car has a 600 mile range and there is a good infrastructure of refuelling locations, so until EV's and there support infrastructure starts to approach that, a hybrid of some sort would be better for me.

 

Of course I could drive to the station in an EV and pay though the nose to park it, leave 50% longer for the overall journey time and spend about twice the fuel cost on a return fare. 

 

 

The better courier companies replace their vans after 3 - 4 years, depending on mileage. So they could be replacing with electric by now.

 

And upfront costs probably not an issue either. I would be very surprised if these vehicles are not leased rather than purchased.

Leasing is very common amongst transportation operators, including airlines and TOCs. Up front costs influence lease charges, so you can't escape that. Some couriers (around here at least) sub contract to individuals, who can probably not afford to go electric anyway.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I don't think the transition will be policy driven. The initial impetus was policy driven, and politicians will want to claim they're doing something, but the transition will happen and accelerate more quickly than most anticipate in my view because the market will actually want EVs. If you can adapt to an EV with acceptable compromise why would you want an IC engine? Most people I know (and I can say this for myself) aren't looking at EVs to save the world, to take advantage of grants, to get cheap motoring or anything, they're looking at them because they're increasingly becoming a very attractive option in terms of desirability and performance.

 

To use a railway analogy, I'd put the older EVs as being something like the early Alco-Ingersoll Rand - GE diesel electric locomotives. They demonstrated the technical viability of diesel electric locomotives and that in specific applications such as switching they were superior to steam but in general they offered little reason to change from steam. Go forward ten years and EMC were building the Zephyr trains which demonstrated a clear superiority over steam for high performance passenger use, maybe that is where the Tesla Model S is. Step forward another five years and the EMC FT basically rendered steam obsolete and provided a compelling case for the wholesale abandonment of steam locomotive technology, maybe the equivalents of the EMC FT are cars like the Model 3 and the whole series of new EVs in the pipeline from various manufacturers. Once you get to that point the transition will accelerate and take place far more quickly than people expect I believe.

 

 

That's exactly what I was talking about in the OP, where I started this topic.

 

It's clear from many of the contributions over the last 8 pages, that many of us are unaware of where the technology has got to so far and just how advanced development has become.

The pace of change is faster than most realise.

Even the most sceptical of motoring journalists are being won over.

 

Of course there are many practical issues still to be dealt with and battery technology will continue to be developed, but that time when "maybe one day, when they're more developed and battery ranges are improved", is for many motorists, upon us.

 

.

[Reorte]

The better courier companies replace their vans after 3 - 4 years, depending on mileage. So they could be replacing with electric by now.

 

And upfront costs probably not an issue either. I would be very surprised if these vehicles are not leased rather than purchased.

Some of them are starting to get replaced, but there are also a lot of smaller companies running knackered old vans around.

 

Surely if something costs more upfront the lease will also cost more, the leasing company isn't going to want to take that hit!

[Reorte]

The problem here will be is that those most adversely affected will be the least able to do much about it and in whom the politicians and the "market" has the least interest.

Those people can carry on using their existing cars. It's only an issue if the people trying to push for 100% electric get their way, which hopefully they won't when 3/4 (plucking numbers out of thin air) will sort out the problems with petrol and diesel, particularly since the takeup will be highest where petrol and diesel cause the most problems because it's also where the issues with electrics are fewest.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...in the same way that we still keep horses, the internal combustion engine will probably continue indefinitely as a recreational thing.

 Yes, but only for the income class that maintains horses at present. It's raw economics in action, universal demand for liquid hydrocarbon fuelled vehicles provides for great economies of scale in provision of all the essential supporting infrastructure. As the demand transfers to other technologies, it will be a race for the current service providers to either redeploy into the new, or wind down completely to closure, with a few hold-outs tailoring service centres for the anticipated continuing demand.

 

Not so very long ago, every village had a forge for the shoeing of horses...

 

...We are now part of a huge social experiment, because I don't think such a big 'technology change' has ever been 'policy driven' before ....... maybe the phasing out of solid fuel to create "smokeless zones" in cities, but even that was small by comparison.

 The introduction of the UK's National Grid was policy driven and as a social experiment an overwhelming success. My recollection is that the UK was the fastest adopter of domestic mains power among developed countries as a consequence; and that the UK's resilience to war damage was very significantly enhanced.