Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

2. If 50% of all cars are electric and need charging could our supply sustain the power needed?

 

 

 

Most charging (around 90%) presently takes place at home and usually off-peak when there's adequate generation capacity..

From what I've read, that figure is predicted to be between 85-90% when the majority of cars are EV's.

The use of Smart car chargers communicating with the supply network should allow for better management of the demand.

 

One new piece of tech that is coming to power supplies is Grid Batteries.

i.e. local storage of electricity in banks of batteries, to help smooth out supply against the demand for power.

 

The EV charging point operators are looking at installing battery storage at the busier charging sites.

The network electricity suppliers are looking at installing huge battery banks to help bolster the national grid.

 

 

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Edited July 10, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Joseph_Pestell]

Most charging (around 90%) presently takes place at home and usually off-peak when there's adequate generation capacity..

From what I've read, that figure is predicted to be between 85-90% when the majority of cars are EV's.

The use of Smart car chargers communicating with the supply network should allow for better management of the demand.

 

One new piece of tech that is coming to power supplies is Grid Batteries.

i.e. local storage of electricity in banks of batteries, to help smooth out supply against the demand for power.

 

The EV charging point operators are looking at installing battery storage at the busier charging sites.

The network electricity suppliers are looking at installing huge battery banks to help bolster the national grid.

 

 

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It goes a bit beyond looking at installing these battery banks. It is already happening.

[Guest]

It goes a bit beyond looking at installing these battery banks. It is already happening.

 

There's the huge one in Australia shoring up a very sketchy grid.

[Nick C]

Our other car is a 2.2 litre diesel (150bhp), the hybrid is about 10mpg better around town but about 5mpg worse on a motorway run (50 vs 55).

 

That's prretty much expected isn't it - around town you get the benefit of the regenerative braking, which obviously you don't get on a motorway. 

 

The thing I don't get about most hybrids is that, as far as I know, they all still use a conventional drivetrain, supplemented by an electric motor/generator - wheras surely it'd be more logical to use the I/C engine as a generator, so it could run at peak torque regardless of road speed (like in a DEMU...). I believe they may do that in the "range extender" EVs?

 

I personally wouldn't buy a non-plug-in hybrid, as I don't think it would suit the sort of journeys I do - I'd be quite happy to have a plug-in though, when they get cheap enough, as the 30-50 mile electic range would cover most of my journeys, with the IC engine to deal with longer ones...

 

2. If 50% of all cars are electric and need charging could our supply sustain the power needed?

 

From what I understand, it's not the generation supply that will cause a problem, but the "last mile" distribution - it's not designed to cope with multiple large power draws at the same time. Each substation supplies a number of houses, but they were specced on the assumption that very few, if any, of the houses would be drawing max current at any one time...

[Ron Ron Ron]

....The thing I don't get about most hybrids is that, as far as I know, they all still use a conventional drivetrain, supplemented by an electric motor/generator - wheras surely it'd be more logical to use the I/C engine as a generator, so it could run at peak torque regardless of road speed (like in a DEMU...).

I believe they may do that in the "range extender" EVs?

 

You are right. The range extenders we've seen so far, use an ICE to generate electricity. The ICE is not mechanically connected to the drive train.

 

The car manufacturers don't seem to be including range extenders in their future plans though.

Presumably based on the continued development of battery tech and the increased range ability of the next generation of EV's.

Range anxiety is becoming something of a myth.

 

Two range extender EV's I can think of.

 

The original and discontinued Chevrolet Volt (sold in Europe as the Vauxhall/Opel Ampera) was a range extender EV.

However, the new Chevrolet Bolt (sold in Europe as the Opel Ampera-e) is a pure EV.

 

The BMW i3 is offered with or without the REX option. 

From what I can see, the new EV's BMW are working on don't include the REX option.

 

 

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Edited July 11, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Guest]

The original and discontinued Chevrolet Volt (sold in Europe as the Vauxhall/Opel Ampera) was a range extender EV.

 

 

The Volt wasn't a REX it was a PHEV done properly. 50 mile electric range which nothing else comes near. The engine can drive the wheels or one of the two motors as a generator with pretty much any combination of engine and motor used seamlessly via a very clever gearbox.

 

The i3 I'd call a REX as it's primarily an EV with an engine purely there to top up the battery.

 

You can still buy a new one, just not over here. It's ridiculous that you could buy this in 2011 and PHEVs today are a huge leap backwards.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Going slightly o/t, my wife once bought a car from a firm in Salisbury called Rex Autos. Remarkably difficult to get insured over the phone.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Volt wasn't a REX it was a PHEV done properly....

I recall both GM and the motoring press referring to it as a REX.

The Society of Automotive Engineers defines it as a PHEV, as you say.

The Wikipedia entry on this car has an interesting section on the terminology.

 

 

...The engine can drive the wheels or one of the two motors as a generator with pretty much any combination of engine and motor used seamlessly via a very clever gearbox....

I'd long forgotten about the trick gearbox.

 

 

....You can still buy a new one, just not over here.

It's ridiculous that you could buy this in 2011 and PHEVs today are a huge leap backwards.

That's the 2nd generation Volt, which is still sold in N. America, but not in other export markets.

 

GM Europe now only sell the Ampera-e (a.k.a. Bolt) pure EV, which looks quite interesting as a small family car.

 

 

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[Joseph_Pestell]

A secondhand Ampera looks like quite a good option! Tend to be a bit high mileage but would that matter much on this type of vehicle?

[Joseph_Pestell]

There's the huge one in Australia shoring up a very sketchy grid.

 

Closer to home there are projects in Taunton and Swindon about to be built. Taunton due to be finished late this year.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A secondhand Ampera looks like quite a good option! Tend to be a bit high mileage but would that matter much on this type of vehicle?

 

 

A friend of mine has one.

Bought it 2nd hand for a fairly good price.

He and his wife have 3 cars between them though, so it's not their only transport.

 

Last time I asked him about it, he was very pleased with it, but I know he's less interested in it as car, than in believing he's doing his bit for the planet.

Another mutual pal of ours, regards it as virtue signalling, even though he rather likes the idea of owning an EV himself.

 

 

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[giz]

That's prretty much expected isn't it - around town you get the benefit of the regenerative braking, which obviously you don't get on a motorway. 

 

The thing I don't get about most hybrids is that, as far as I know, they all still use a conventional drivetrain, supplemented by an electric motor/generator - wheras surely it'd be more logical to use the I/C engine as a generator, so it could run at peak torque regardless of road speed (like in a DEMU...). I believe they may do that in the "range extender" EVs?

 

I personally wouldn't buy a non-plug-in hybrid, as I don't think it would suit the sort of journeys I do - I'd be quite happy to have a plug-in though, when they get cheap enough, as the 30-50 mile electic range would cover most of my journeys, with the IC engine to deal with longer ones...

 

 

From what I understand, it's not the generation supply that will cause a problem, but the "last mile" distribution - it's not designed to cope with multiple large power draws at the same time. Each substation supplies a number of houses, but they were specced on the assumption that very few, if any, of the houses would be drawing max current at any one time...

The Toyota/Lexus sysyem and also Ford, I believe, don't have a conventional direct drivetrain. The engine is connected via an epicyclic gearset (they call it the powersplit device or PSD) which in conjuction with an electric motor/generator provides a form of CVT in which IC engine speed is independant of road speed. There is also a second electric motor on the output side. There is no conventional gearbox or any form of clutch. The electronics determine IC engine speed (or lack of it, it often shuts off) depending on a number of parameters. It is in effect an electro mechanical version of the electric transmission you mention. It is this that provides most of the fuel efficiency, not the braking regen.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Closer to home there are projects in Taunton and Swindon about to be built. Taunton due to be finished late this year.

 

A number of companies are active in this rapidly developing field.

 

Here's one...

https://www.pivot-power.co.uk/news/

 

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[Enterprisingwestern]

I see from the news that all new homes will have to be built with home charging capabilities as standard.

Pushing the boat out a bit further, how far away do you think the Tesla "roof tiles to appliance" integrated system is, and would it be practical/economical (other than in emission saving terms) in countries like GB where a top up from the mains would probably be needed?

 

Mike.

[Ron Ron Ron]

....how far away do you think the Tesla "roof tiles to appliance" integrated system is, and would it be practical/economical (other than in emission saving terms) in countries like GB where a top up from the mains would probably be needed?

 

 

The visionaries think the future for powering domestic homes, is less binary than that.

They talk of a balanced and dynamic mix of electrical electrical energy; self generation from solar and wind turbines where practical, plus externally supplied power (the mains) that will come from a variety of sources that could largely be renewable.

Home batteries and so called smart power management are added in the mix.

 

It all sounds wonderful, but I don't know how easy it'll be to integrate all that into millions of properties, much of which are substandard in energy and environmental terms.

 

 

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[Nearholmer]

Why do automotive applications seem to need so much complexity - there must be a reason? It used to be weight, but I don't think that can be true any longer.

 

I've always imagined: internal combustion engine; alternator; rectifier/inverter; battery; rectifier/inverter; traction motor.

 

If it is more efficient under certain conditions to cruise in direct i.c., a magnetic clutch could be used to achieve that.

 

A clever chap called Durtnall made a car and a bus with three-phase transmission in about 1910. He couldn't use power electronics, because they hadn't been invented then, so had to use electromechanical control of the fields plus resistances, but his vehicles worked a treat. Unfortunately they didn't catch on because of weight and, I suspect, because they were beyond most users comprehension.

[Nick C]

The visionaries think the future for powering domestic homes, is less binary than that.

They talk of a balanced and dynamic mix of electrical electrical energy; self generation from solar and wind turbines where practical, plus externally supplied power (the mains) that will come from a variety of sources that could largely be renewable.

Home batteries and so called smart power management are added in the mix.

 

It all sounds wonderful, but I don't know how easy it'll be to integrate all that into millions of properties, much of which are substandard in energy and environmental terms.

 

 

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In this case, I think the visionaries are right - The only way we can survive, if we want to continue using energy as much as we do now, is by diversifying and decentralising our energy production as much as possible. You'll see some people who say "We need to build Solar" or "We need to build wind", but anyone who actually knows about it will tell you that we need to build a mixture, and spread it around.

 

The great thing about a lot of renewable energy generation is that it can be done on a much smaller scale, which makes it much easier to distribute, instead of having to have large, centralised power stations (as we do with coal) - this massively reduces the distribution cost, and improves resiliance, and thus reliability. Look towards seeing more things like CHP (combined heat and power - burning something like biomass for electricity and using the waste heat to heat homes) and covering the roofs of industrial units in solar panels to power both them and nearby houses. The government should also be looking to build a few molten-salt fission reactors to provide baseload power, but they won't, as everyone is scared of the 'n' word. (by design they use the leftover Uranium from conventional reactors, and produce virtually no waste. They also fail-safe in the event of a power failure or breach.)

 

This might change when fusion comes on-stream, but that won't happen until someone actually puts some proper money into it - the latest experimental reactors would have been energy-positive (i.e. get more out than they put in), but their budgets got slashed...

Edited July 11, 2018 by Nick C

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's a total mystery to me that people  are allowed to cover fields with solar panels while we have so many suitable roofs and car parks not used for solar production.

 

and covering the roofs of industrial units in solar panels to power both them and nearby houses.

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[Nick C]

 

It's a total mystery to me that people  are allowed to cover fields with solar panels while we have so many suitable roofs and car parks not used for solar production.

 

and covering the roofs of industrial units in solar panels to power both them and nearby houses.

.

 

 

There's a guy here in Basingstoke who wants to cover the roofs of all the industrial units in solar panels - he's done the maths and worked out that it would prvide more than enough power for the entire town. His idea is that his company would own the panels, and rent the roof spaces from the unit owners. The local council said no...

 

Apparently the huge Sainsbury's distribution warehouse is powered by it's own rooftop solar panels though.

[giz]

There's a guy here in Basingstoke who wants to cover the roofs of all the industrial units in solar panels - he's done the maths and worked out that it would prvide more than enough power for the entire town.

 

Except at night I would guess.

[Reorte]

 

It's a total mystery to me that people  are allowed to cover fields with solar panels while we have so many suitable roofs and car parks not used for solar production.

 

and covering the roofs of industrial units in solar panels to power both them and nearby houses.

All those supermarket tin sheds, industrial tin sheds, bland office blocks - they all seem like the obvious place to stick solar panels. The downside may well be that the roofs of those buildings haven't been designed to take the extra weight.

[giz]

All those supermarket tin sheds, industrial tin sheds, bland office blocks - they all seem like the obvious place to stick solar panels. The downside may well be that the roofs of those buildings haven't been designed to take the extra weight.

A lot of them aren't even safe for someone to walk on.

[Joseph_Pestell]

There's a guy here in Basingstoke who wants to cover the roofs of all the industrial units in solar panels - he's done the maths and worked out that it would prvide more than enough power for the entire town. His idea is that his company would own the panels, and rent the roof spaces from the unit owners. The local council said no...

 

Apparently the huge Sainsbury's distribution warehouse is powered by it's own rooftop solar panels though.

 

Local council has nothing to do with it and should be told politely but firmly where to go. Panels on roofs do not need planning consent.

[Joseph_Pestell]

All those supermarket tin sheds, industrial tin sheds, bland office blocks - they all seem like the obvious place to stick solar panels. The downside may well be that the roofs of those buildings haven't been designed to take the extra weight.

 

Anything that can stand the weight of snow on it (and we had a supermarket in Carcassonne notably fail in that respect a few years ago) should easily be able to take the weight of the panels.

[Titan]

Anything that can stand the weight of snow on it (and we had a supermarket in Carcassonne notably fail in that respect a few years ago) should easily be able to take the weight of the panels.

 

I suppose it depends how marginally the roof can stand the weight of snow, because with the panels it has to cope with the extra weight of snow and panels, unless there is some magic to stop the snow falling on the panels...

Edited July 12, 2018 by Titan