Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[number6]

Swiss music is the worst! I've been bingeing on BLS/Lötschberg footage recently. Now if they put chargers on the car trains through the tunnel...

 

And sorry yes confusion re leasing and PCP and HP - like all finance really, it comes down to personal circumstances. For me its worked really well with v low borrowing rate and repayments and the ability to switch to a new EV design when they are available - perfect. The low running costs of EVs are the key here too - no longer am I putting £2,500 of fuel in the car each year. Last year was less than £300 for the same mileage.

[Nick C]

12 hours ago, number6 said:

 

Who buys a car outright any more? Robert Llewellyn talked about this on Fully Charged recently with regard to his Tesla.

 

If you 'buy' a car using a lease its not really the total cost of the car you have to consider – more how much you pay as a deposit and per month. So by leasing an EV you bypass the cost differential between it and the fossil burning variety. I paid for a diesel car full price using my debit card once - and had carefully calculated how much it was going to cost me over its lifetime. After eight years it died [camshaft] and ruined my maths because it became worthless instantly. Since then I only think of cars as a monthly figure - running costs and leasing costs. Worth a thought?

 

My feeling is that many EVs are going to have a long life - its apparent that they have less to 'go wrong' and wear on tyres and brakes is less, no clutch to go, a much simpler drive chain, all the associated cooling and fuel related gubbins missing it is possible that they could be running for many more years than their ICE cousins.

 

 

I have bought every car I've ever owned outright. Yes it means I have older secondhand cars instead of the latest shiny, but to me that's worth it to avoid the trap of never-ending consumer debt - the only debt I have is the mortgage.

 

If my current car were to expire tomorrow, it would have cost me, in total (purchase + maintenance + tax), £140 per month. Assuming it lasts me another two years without any major failures, that goes down to £63/month - plus around £50/month for fuel. The initial deposit on most new car deals (EV or otherwise) is more than I'll expect spend in total over my entire ownership of a car...

[TheQ]

37 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

I have bought every car I've ever owned outright. Yes it means I have older secondhand cars instead of the latest shiny, but to me that's worth it to avoid the trap of never-ending consumer debt - the only debt I have is the mortgage.

 

If my current car were to expire tomorrow, it would have cost me, in total (purchase + maintenance + tax), £140 per month. Assuming it lasts me another two years without any major failures, that goes down to £63/month - plus around £50/month for fuel. The initial deposit on most new car deals (EV or otherwise) is more than I'll expect spend in total over my entire ownership of a car...

The same as me, although we stretched to £6000 and got a new car last time, it's now 10 years old and providing nothing major happens, we'll change it in 3 years when i retire.

Going on that,

6000/13=                                                     462 per year,

road tax=                                                     125

it's on it third set  of tyres.

(48X4X2)/13 =                                              29

one exhaust system=                                 200

Mot And Normal service About =            200

2 including cam belt (200 extra /13)*2= 30

Sub Total                                                              1107/12= 92

plus RAC  3 vehicles 11.5/3                         £4

 

So the total is £96 per month with no debts. Without the fact i'd probably get a £1500 back on the car or more which would take another £10 off a month..

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by TheQ

[Reorte]

I just want my 10 year old car to keep going for as long as possible, trying to put off the day when I'm forced to drive a box of electronics around (my current one's got more than enough). Not that's electronics and not electrics, I'd happily drive an electric car without all that nonsense.

[Steven B]

The trouble with leasing a car is the lease period - you get a new car every 3-4 years; If you're getting an electric car to reduce your carbon footprint all that effort goes to waste as so as you return the keys and drive off with a new car.

 

What's better for the environment, Driver A who gets a new leased electric car every 3 years or Driver B who buys a second hand petrol and keeps it for 10 years?

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/audi/107770/new-2021-audi-e-tron-compact-hatch-to-lead-brand-s-electrification-plans-pictures

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

From Auto express.

 

"Electric cars have lower lifetime CO2 emissions than petrol or diesel cars"

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/consumer-news/107776/electric-cars-have-lower-lifetime-co2-emissions-than-petrol-or

 

 

 

.

[TheQ]

22 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

From Auto express.

 

"Electric cars have lower lifetime CO2 emissions than petrol or diesel cars"

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/consumer-news/107776/electric-cars-have-lower-lifetime-co2-emissions-than-petrol-or

 

 

 

.

doesnt include the cost of manufacturing the car bodies against keeping a petrol car on the road longer, and i think assumes the batteries will last the 15 years of the car..

My landrover is heading for 40 years old... I think I'm still up on the deal, 2.5 cars built and run against one..

[The Fatadder]

Finally received my options list....

 

I have a choice of a basic i3, a high spec i3, a basic i3 s or a high spec i3 s!  (along with the iconiq plug in hybrid and a couple of conventional hybrids, all of which rather negate the point given you still have to pay a fairly high % of BIK) 

 

So has anyone got experience of the latest i3 who can comment on how accurate the stated mileage is and how you've found it to live with?

 

I would probably be looking at getting a spec'd up i3 s, assuming the S doesn't sacrifice mileage for the extra power (else it would be the high spec non s)... 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, Steven B said:

The trouble with leasing a car is the lease period - you get a new car every 3-4 years; If you're getting an electric car to reduce your carbon footprint all that effort goes to waste as so as you return the keys and drive off with a new car.

 

What's better for the environment, Driver A who gets a new leased electric car every 3 years or Driver B who buys a second hand petrol and keeps it for 10 years?

 

 

Taken to it's (slightly ridiculous) extreme, imagine how much environmentally better off we would be if everybody still had their first cars!

 

Mike.

[298]

10 hours ago, Steven B said:

The trouble with leasing a car is the lease period - you get a new car every 3-4 years; If you're getting an electric car to reduce your carbon footprint all that effort goes to waste as so as you return the keys and drive off with a new car.

 

What's better for the environment, Driver A who gets a new leased electric car every 3 years or Driver B who buys a second hand petrol and keeps it for 10 years?

 

 

...or Driver C who buys Driver A's secondhand electric car...?

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, TheQ said:

doesnt include the cost of manufacturing the car bodies against keeping a petrol car on the road longer, and i think assumes the batteries will last the 15 years of the car..

My landrover is heading for 40 years old... I think I'm still up on the deal, 2.5 cars built and run against one..

 

Not many cars last 40 years though.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Other than those considered to be "classics" when new, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc. or the occasional "escapee" from the mass market sector which are usually too expensive for the later vehicle life owner to maintain/repair.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Taken to it's (slightly ridiculous) extreme, imagine how much environmentally better off we would be if everybody still had their first cars!

 

Mike.

So everybody that bought a car between say 1960 and 2000 would still be driving around in muck spewing exhaust fuming cars and only the more recent purchases would be clean exhausts......very environmentally friendly .........I think I’d prefer raw material usage and cleaner air quality 

[number6]

It’s a discussion I’ve had a lot: the buying of an EV vrs buying a load of used ICE cars for £100s of pounds over the same period of time. Of course one is cheaper on the forecourt but we aren’t just talking cash in our pockets here. It’s false economics because the continued use of fossil fuels has cost impacts on all of us that far exceed the price of it at the pumps. The price does not account for the costs of damage to the environment, our kids lungs and everyone’s quality of life.

 

We aren’t just looking here for the cheapest way to drive - look at every queue of traffic: most people are choosing to drive vehicles that aren’t the most economical option. Just having a bit of extra fancy trim or paint job shows most people are prepared to spend thousands more on stuff that’s just decoration. So if I choose to spend that on an alternative fuel that’s my prerogative... I don’t like contributing to a problem that’s been obvious for years and I’m happy to be ‘doing my bit’ while I also enjoy the quiet, the drive and tech of EVs. 

 

We aren’t comparing like for like here - paying for and keeping an old ICE vehicle is commendable in some senses but irresponsible in others.  

 

As to this idea that driving more than one EV over ten years is worse than driving one old petrol car for the same time? I think basis of this argument here is only that two cars have been built when one would have done? And not about the impact those vehicles have in terms of emissions? EVs using electricity produced from renewable sources produce up to six times less carbon emissions over their lifetimes than a petrol vehicle. All my charging is done using renewables both at home and when on the road. A second hand ICE driven for another 10 years is going to be very ‘dirty’ compared to two 5 year old EVs over the same period. Into the equation also goes the advance in gaining more efficient EV power use introduced in those five years compared to the zero advance in efficiency in the old petrol car. 

 

Happy motoring!

[Guest JiLo]

On 22/08/2019 at 13:05, 30801 said:

 

It really isn't. Unless you're in a national park. Or Wales.

I live in a town of 40k people, there are 2 electric car charging points, both of which have out of use signs on them (despite the website saying they are working).   A recently built retail park nearby with around 700 parking spaces has no charging bays.  And this is in an SNP controlled council area who bang on about begin green!  Conversely, there are 6 petrol stations that I know of, each with a minimum of 8 pumps.

 

I would like an EV, but at the moment the cost is just too much - I bought a new car last year (Kia Soul), I looked at the EV version, it was £14k more than the petrol model.  I cant justify that difference.

 

When things change more in favour of EV's (more range and lower price) I'll definitely reconsider, but at the moment I'll stick with my ICE

[raymw]

The fundamental problem is that too many individuals want to, or believe that they have to travel.  People having to work from an office in this day of electronic communication. Going to the shops when it's more efficient to have home delivery. Force of habit, and general ignorance by the company owners. One solution to all this freelance travel, is make all the motorways two lane. One with a speed restriction of 40mph, for the general public, lorries, etc. The other unlimited speed for emergency vehicles and politicians. More walking would improve every one's health, particularly with less traffic fumes around. There is no need for most journeys made. The 40mph motorways means that the series lr owners can keep up with the traffic.

[number6]

14 minutes ago, raymw said:

The other unlimited speed for emergency vehicles and politicians.

 

 

That is being trialed in the UK as certain politicians drive past at unlimited speed (with a sharp corner and cliff edge coming up... )

Edited August 31, 2019 by number6

[Guest JiLo]

31 minutes ago, raymw said:

The fundamental problem is that too many individuals want to, or believe that they have to travel.  People having to work from an office in this day of electronic communication. Going to the shops when it's more efficient to have home delivery. Force of habit, and general ignorance by the company owners. One solution to all this freelance travel, is make all the motorways two lane. One with a speed restriction of 40mph, for the general public, lorries, etc. The other unlimited speed for emergency vehicles and politicians. More walking would improve every one's health, particularly with less traffic fumes around. There is no need for most journeys made. The 40mph motorways means that the series lr owners can keep up with the traffic.

I can work from home if I wish, but I much prefer the office environment, its good for the mind to be surrounded by various people.  Working from home can be a very lonely experience.  I live 9 miles from my work, public transport would take me 2 hours each way, plus a 20 min walk, each way, as there is no direct route, by car its 15 mins, so I have no option but to drive.  And I like to go visit people, in various places at various times

 

Likewise, I'd much rather go to the shops than get a home delivery, I get my groceries from a number of different outlets, especially fresh produce, its more efficient for me to drive to the shops and walk round, than to get multiple home deliveries of possibly sub standard food.

 

 

 

 

[raymw]

Hi Jilo, that's what I mean, 'wish', 'prefer' and similar concepts. It is a trade off, Everybody's wishes against what is overall benefit for the rest of us. The way things have evolved, folk's expectations, etc., are not necessarily the best way for things to be, and more of the same will make no difference, probably make it worse. If the the media etc. had not jumped on Al Gore's dissertation, and a serious wider viewpoint had been taken, then it may have been realised that much of what is now going on wrt climate change is pointless wrt us changing the 'climate', but not when it comes to exploitation of the masses.

I've been to offices where folk are working in isolation, in cubicles, it reminded me of a chicken rearing shed, they cluster and cluck around the water cooler, before returning to their cages. Consider the waste of car parks full of cars, and fuel consumed to get there. My daughter in law works for a medical company based in California, she moved back here to Manchester. She still does exactly the same work for them - wonderful thing, the internet, if you know how to use it. Many companies are  now allowing some employees to work from home one or two days a week, if possible. Of course, not all work can be done this way, but much more of it can.

Twenty five years ago, the public utility company i worked for, thought it would be better for the workmen to be able to drive straight from home, to the job site, instead of first going into the yard. Everybody was happy, until hmrc decided to tax the workmen for the van use to and from work (counted as a benefit in kind), and some local councils/neighbors objected to a trade van outside or in the driveway of a private house. What one gives, t'other takes away. Not enough joined up thinking. (just like the lack of planning for electric car charging, but that's a fad, which will pass away, when the price of ev's drop to a level for the masses, then they'll be taxed out of existence) in exactly the same way when the regulations on making bio-fuel from old chip shop oil or vegetable oil - the price of corn oil doubled, above the price of dyno diesel, and you had to get a license for carrying waste chip shop oil.

Not that i'm being negative, or anything...

 

[boxbrownie]

People will always justify why they want/need/wish for an EV or remain with an ICE vehicle by their own means and desires.

 

Debate is futile 

[raymw]

Everything is futile...    or not.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

So everybody that bought a car between say 1960 and 2000 would still be driving around in muck spewing exhaust fuming cars and only the more recent purchases would be clean exhausts......very environmentally friendly .........I think I’d prefer raw material usage and cleaner air quality 

 

Nicely ignoring the spewing factories etc that have built all the new cars?

 

Mike.

[raymw]

lead by example

 

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Nicely ignoring the spewing factories etc that have built all the new cars?

 

Mike.

Another total misconception of the vehicle manufacturing industry, most factories since the naughties and before have had solar, wind and renewable energy input (mainly due to tax incentive advantages from governments) and as such have been some of the cleanest industrial plants around, even suppliers need to reach “clean standards” to achieve tier one supplier status, but then we should never let facts stand in the way of a biased opinion