Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[APOLLO]

Secondhand values / costs of (say 2 - 3 year old) EV's is an important future issue, as not all motorists can afford to buy / lease new EV vehicles.

 

How this will pan out as IC cars slowly disappear from secondhand car forecourts and are replaced with secondhand EV's is anyone's guess.

 

Brit15

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

The vehicle lease costs are mostly covering the depreciation. So if the battery lease makes the whole car less desirable at the end, the lease cost increases to cover it.

 

Indeed.

As I said, if that results in lease costs that are too high, the leasing companies either won’t offer the cars ( I.e. not worthwhile as there’d be no takers), or will be priced out ( again, no takers).

It’s a commercial decision whether they can offer the cars at a marketable price.

The punters either accept the leasing cost or they don’t. They’re not going to be bothered about the leasing company’s ability to sell the car on, or its residual value.

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Some industry spokespersons are saying that EV's will become cheaper than their ICE counterparts within the next decade..

 

Current estimates suggest that price parity could come as soon as 2022.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/23/should-i-buy-an-electric-car-all-you-need-to-know-about-prices-technology-and-range

[PatB]

Well, Australia seems to be making progress, albeit glacial. Presumably Nissan have got the current Leaf through the Australian compliance process, as I saw my first TV ad for it last night. 

 

A quick Google suggests a $50k rrp. Not utterly ridiculous by Australian standards, although you can still get a whole lot more car for that in ICEs. A Toyota Prius is ~$40k and seems to find plenty of buyers. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by PatB

[admiles]

15 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Secondhand values / costs of (say 2 - 3 year old) EV's is an important future issue, as not all motorists can afford to buy / lease new EV vehicles.

 

How this will pan out as IC cars slowly disappear from secondhand car forecourts and are replaced with secondhand EV's is anyone's guess.

 

Brit15

 

I can see a scenario where lots of people further down the car buying chain are priced out of ownership.

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

I can see a scenario where lots of people further down the car buying chain are priced out of ownership.

Nah, there will always be cheap cars, whether ICE or EV......the current crop of many, many hybrids will bridge the gap between dirt cheap ICE and slightly more expensive EVs when they get down to that level.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Polestar 2 - UK launch price announced.

(n.b. Polestar is Volvo's performance electric brand)

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-polestar-2-402bhp-ev-cost-£49900

 

Just for reference, this launch model price includes a top-end fully loaded spec with loads of tech kit and includes routine servicing and maintenance for three years.

 

This works out at least £5k cheaper than an equivalent top spec Volvo XC60.

 

 

.

 

[boxbrownie]

I doubt the base Polestar model will be very much below £40K regardless of Autocar and Volvos optimism, the aspect of these new “online purchase only” scenes is it can be very difficult sometimes to actually view and or try/drive a model your interested in before buying, I remember when Tesla first popped up it was such a pain trying to test drive, we had to wait until there was a “roadshow” in the area (I think at the time they were only doing about 6 shows in the whole of the UK) before we could even touch one, mind you the drive was worth the wait but our drive was restricted to just about 4 miles around Docklands (not the perfect test drive area) and then they asked us how we wanted to pay for the deposit......whoaa cowboy.....I’ll buy some electrical goods online without touching, but an electrical good which weighs over a few tons I need to think about longer 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I doubt the base Polestar model will be very much below £40K regardless of Autocar and Volvos optimism.......

 

Was originally going to start at around £37k, but they're now saying £35.5k.

Add a few bits on and £40k may be an average starting price.

Depends on what kit they fit as standard, even for a base model, bearing in mind they're positioning Polestar as a premium brand.

The top-of-the-range launch model is almost fully loaded and there can't be anything worth adding to it.

If the entry level car has a reasonable level of kit as standard, £37k might be likely.

 

Although obviously priced against the Tesla Model 3,  the starting price of £35.5k is around the same starting price as mid-sized ICE powered SUV's from the premium brands.

Take Volvo's own XC60. The cheapest model starts at around £38k

The top of the range XC60 T8 Hybrid is now £60k

Smaller XC40's from £32k to £39k

The Audi Q5 starts at around £40k - £42k and goes up to £66k

The smaller Audi Q3 starts at around £32k and goes up to around £44k.

 

It will be interesting to see what price Volvo are going to charge for the forthcoming EV version of the XC40 ?

 

 

.

 

[royaloak]

On 02/10/2019 at 22:07, Nick C said:

Nope. The key difference is in the secondhand market. The car leasing schemes go for three or four years, then the next owner typically buys the car outright. With a leased battery the payments continue for the life of the car - and as the value drops off who is going to buy a car that's saddled with a huge monthly payment that's now a much bigger proportion of the car's value?

 

People keep only thinking about the first owner and the first few years - now of course that's all that the manufacturer is interested in, but to actually make a real difference we need to consider the full lifespan of the vehicle.

With the current craze for scrappage schemes I cant see cars lasting more than a decade in a few years time anyway, thats before we get onto the environmental impact of building the new car and disposing of the 'scrap' one which would probably be a good reliable car for another 5 or so years, but of course it has to be replaced as it is environmentally unfriendly compared to the new car.

[The Fatadder]

Much as I like the i3 that I am about to order assuming fleet pull their fingers out and get on with their jobs... I am almost a little disappointed that I don't have one more year left on my current company car given the range of EVs due to hit the market over the next 12 months.  

 

It has certainly given me a lot to think about with respect to my other car, as our C Class estate will need replacing in the next year or two.  I had been thinking about a like for like replacement with a 1 year old C220 diesel.  Now I am thinking there is a good chance we will end up with two EVs.  With the current market trend the residual value of a large diesel in 5 years time is looking pretty low.

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, royaloak said:

With the current craze for scrappage schemes I cant see cars lasting more than a decade in a few years time anyway, thats before we get onto the environmental impact of building the new car and disposing of the 'scrap' one which would probably be a good reliable car for another 5 or so years, but of course it has to be replaced as it is environmentally unfriendly compared to the new car.

 

Current studies suggest 22% of the lifetime emissions of a car come from manufacture, shipping and disposal. The remaining 78% is comes from driving it. This means that car technology only needs to become modestly "greener" in order to result in a new reduction of CO2 over the lifetime of a vehicle.

 

How green a EV is depends on how the electricity is generated. Here in the UK, we are actually somewhat ahead of the curve in powering our grid with renewable electricity. This means that a green car driven here will be greener than one driven in a country that still uses fossil fuels as their primary source of electricity generation. Research conducted by the Mobility, Logistics and Automotive Technology Research Centre in Brussels found that an EV that uses electricity from non-renewable sources will emit slightly more emissions over its lifetime than a diesel car, but less than a petrol car. Switch to green electricity and the EV will produce up to six times less carbon emissions over its lifetime compared to a petrol car.

 

I currently buy my electricity from Ecotricity which is one of only 2 companies that offer a 100% renewable energy tariff. For me, switching to an electric car would make a big dent in my carbon footprint. If your primary concern is CO2 emissions then an EV and a 100% renewable energy tariff is the best way to do this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/aug/17/car-scrap-energy-efficiency

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/

[spikey]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 If your primary concern is CO2 emissions then an EV and a 100% renewable energy tariff is the best way to do this.

 

But if your primary concern is saving the planet, finding an alternative to using the car would be a much more effective way to do that

[Karhedron]

Just now, spikey said:

But if your primary concern is saving the planet, finding an alternative to using the car would be a much more effective way to do that

 

Perhaps but not everyone can manage that. I was able to work in my home town for around 7 years and cycled to work but the financial crisis put an end to that so now I have to commute. It is not a massive distance but I couldn't cycle it and the office is awkwardly half-way between one station and the next so public transport is out of the question. My kids are settled in their respective schools and I don't really want to move them so moving closer to work is not really an option (and there is no guarantee how long I will be in my current job either).

 

We do avoid using the car as much as possible. The kids walk to school, my wife walks to work. We go into the town on foot. We do one big weekly shop in the car as it is not feasible to carry a week's worth of food for a family of 5 any other way. Whilst we have cut down our mileage as much as possible, there are some journeys that we can't do without so car ownership and usage is going to remain a necessary evil for the foreseeable future.

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Perhaps but not everyone can manage that. I was able to work in my home town for around 7 years and cycled to work but the financial crisis put an end to that so now I have to commute. It is not a massive distance but I couldn't cycle it and the office is awkwardly half-way between one station and the next so public transport is out of the question. My kids are settled in their respective schools and I don't really want to move them so moving closer to work is not really an option (and there is no guarantee how long I will be in my current job either).

 

We do avoid using the car as much as possible. The kids walk to school, my wife walks to work. We go into the town on foot. We do one big weekly shop in the car as it is not feasible to carry a week's worth of food for a family of 5 any other way. Whilst we have cut down our mileage as much as possible, there are some journeys that we can't do without so car ownership and usage is going to remain a necessary evil for the foreseeable future.

Here's a question - would having your shopping delivered be better or worse than using your own car to drive to the shops.

 

The van is out and about all day and a warm engine always runs cleaner, businesses regularly replace vehicles so they will be getting greener by the year.

 

In fact, if Ocado, Asda, Tesco etc used electric vehicles it would be a really interesting development - remembering how milk used to arrive daily on the back of an electric float.

 

My car sees so little use these days, it's due an annual service soon which it will get as I see a benefit in keeping it serviced annually but whilst I myself would like an electric runabout I cannot justify the outlay - I cannot even justify buying a new car till this one is declared uneconomic to repair and then I would now replace with a cheap secondhand not another brand new vehicle unless I begin to commute again.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, spikey said:

 

But if your primary concern is saving the planet, finding an alternative to using the car would be a much more effective way to do that

And for the people that have no option?

Edited October 4, 2019 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Here's a question - would having your shopping delivered be better or worse than using your own car to drive to the shops.

 

The van is out and about all day and a warm engine always runs cleaner, businesses regularly replace vehicles so they will be getting greener by the year.

 

In fact, if Ocado, Asda, Tesco etc used electric vehicles it would be a really interesting development - remembering how milk used to arrive daily on the back of an electric float.

 

My car sees so little use these days, it's due an annual service soon which it will get as I see a benefit in keeping it serviced annually but whilst I myself would like an electric runabout I cannot justify the outlay - I cannot even justify buying a new car till this one is declared uneconomic to repair and then I would now replace with a cheap secondhand not another brand new vehicle unless I begin to commute again.

Delivery vans don’t come to us, lane too narrow and steep......every time we leave the house it has to be by car, although it is EV (well one of them is) and our supplier is at least 90% renewable (or so they say).......we recycle thoroughly, throw very little food away (OK we are fat) every light bulb in the house is LED........but we are not eco warriors, we bought the i3 because we love the car and the way it drives, as for the rest it just feels like the right thing to do.

 

God I hate greenies 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

God I hate greenies 

Don't pick your nose then 

[boxbrownie]

[Jol Wilkinson]

Locally a good proportion of online order deliveries are by private car owning "contractors" owing to the nature of the narrow roads around here, so the impact of buying online is more difficult to define.

 

We are also living in a society where eating out or having your ready cooked food delivered (it seems to be the biggest growth in TV advertising recently), as opposed to cooking it yourself. It may only be minor, but that must also be having a negative impact on people's green credentials.

 

How can an energy supplier ensure that their supply is X% "green"? If electricity is supplied through the National Grid, how can you manage what comes out, irrespective of what goes in. 

[runs as required]

Did you read yesterday that the Gov is shocked by the the drop off in tax revenue from IC engine fuels?

For the electric future they favour paying for road usage. Apparently they prefer a standard flat rate per linear measure rather than differential  rates dependant upon location/time of day variables.

 

I shared a group of Masters post-grad students with a (now deceased) Professor of Transportation Planning. He used a 7 mile unopened length of Newcastle Western Bypass north of the long delayed new Blaydon bridge across the Tyne to apply and develop a system to record and bill vehicles for road usage dependant upon location/time of day variables. 

It seemed to us an equable way of approaching the issue based upon where one lived (in remote rural or congested Metropolitan areas). But the Tabloid Press  got the politicians cowering away in terror. Instead of billing as we are used to for gas and electric use, blunt instruments like the congestion charge were preferred.

dh

[boxbrownie]

I cannot help thinking this is just newspaper dross, the effect so far on the Governments fuel tax income of EV (even hybrids) must be minuscule, if anything they are more worried by the tax reductions on BIK for hybrid company cars, maybe that what they should be looking at if anything.

 

Running for cover now 

[Stanley Melrose]

Perhaps you might wish to inform yourself?  See <https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14407>

 

Stan

[Nick C]

4 hours ago, runs as required said:

Did you read yesterday that the Gov is shocked by the the drop off in tax revenue from IC engine fuels?

For the electric future they favour paying for road usage. Apparently they prefer a standard flat rate per linear measure rather than differential  rates dependant upon location/time of day variables.

 

I shared a group of Masters post-grad students with a (now deceased) Professor of Transportation Planning. He used a 7 mile unopened length of Newcastle Western Bypass north of the long delayed new Blaydon bridge across the Tyne to apply and develop a system to record and bill vehicles for road usage dependant upon location/time of day variables. 

It seemed to us an equable way of approaching the issue based upon where one lived (in remote rural or congested Metropolitan areas). But the Tabloid Press  got the politicians cowering away in terror. Instead of billing as we are used to for gas and electric use, blunt instruments like the congestion charge were preferred.

dh

The problem with location-based charging is that people will go out of their way to avoid it - look at the congestion on the M6 by people who won't pay for the M6 toll - even though they'll spend more in fuel sitting in the jam than they will in the toll. It's psychological.

 

That means that if you start charging more for the main roads with the big traffic jams, people will try to find 'rat-runs' that they perceive to be cheaper, resulting in much more traffic on side streets or rural lanes (and thus pushing the price up there too!)

[boxbrownie]

58 minutes ago, Stanley Melrose said:

Perhaps you might wish to inform yourself?  See <https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14407>

 

Stan

Well there are roughly 36 million ICE vehicles on the road.......compared to a quarter million EVs.....you do the math