Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[AndyID]

11 minutes ago, shady said:

Lots of things "work" as long as you don't have to actually consider the cost either financially or in actual energy used.

 

 

There are lots of situations where hydrogen is advantageous but there is little point in further discussion against pure dogma.

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

There are lots of situations where hydrogen is advantageous but there is little point in further discussion against pure dogma.

 

Yes, it needs to be remembered that the energy efficiency in the conversion is only one concern. Not an unimportant factor, but not the only one.

 

We could start with the resources necessary to create enough batteries, compared to a sufficiently strong tank.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Reorte

[2ManySpams]

On 05/09/2021 at 09:55, black and decker boy said:

Your post is too obnoxious to warrant a sensible reply.

 

ICE car bans are coming. How you cope is up to you. Having a closed ‘will never work against this one off ridiculous journey’ mindset is not a coping mechanism, I think they call it denial.

 

I am currently doing 1500 to 2000 miles per month with work. I also live in Home Counties with family in the north. I have an EV with advertised 340m + range. It does not hinder my journeys at all.

 

Having read and re-read the original post I can't see how on earth you class it as obnoxious. You obviously don't share the poster's point of view but objectively looking at the two posts side by side, yours is the one that stands out as being out of order. I think you owe an apology.

 

[shady]

I am not against EV's as for a lot of people they work fine and for some workout cheaper than ICE and they will have a very important part to play in the UK's future transport needs and the

current "early adopters" are creating the demand the drives research and development that we will all hopefully benefit from in the future.

What I don't like is the holier than holy attitude that some EV drivers take over none EV drivers , who can not also accept that not everyone has the same usage pattern as they do.

The sarcastic expression of "Range Anxiety" does not help matters , I have been known to reply in kind by stating that fortunately I am still able to do the simple arithmetic that I have been able to do since 3 or 4 years old so do not suffer from range anxiety , but merely correctly conclude that currently EV's (that would be within my budget range) can not cope with my current requirements, though I fully expect that in the future this will change. I have also pointed out that some of "their green journeys" were actually no where near as green as mine as I have just walked or cycled.

Personally I still prefer older vehicles , my "daily" driver is only 28 years old and see no reason why it can not last another 20 years , it only cost a few grand , it does not depreciate , I can repair and service it myself. Obviously it cost's more in fuel to run, but it would take me decades to make an overall saving by buying a new EV and the journeys I do would be very difficult/

require more stops or stops at places other than where I desire. I was frequently making a round trip of 320+ miles , with no option to charge at origin or destination and none of the miles were on the motorway.

Diesel and Jet A fuels are likely to be available for quite some time, as unless someone comes up with some major breakthroughs we wont be replacing 40+T HGV's or jet airliners with EV equivalents in the near future.

Hydrogen and in particular "Green Hydrogen to "store" electricity "" is an answer looking for a problem , but the problem usually has simpler solutions. One potential source of batteries is the EV power pack, both whilst still in the EV and as 2nd use of "range insufficient" ex EV battery packs. For large grid systems we don't need to use lithium or complex batteries  as size and weight are not so important. Large scale storage of compressed Hydrogen does also have safety considerations , whilst large lithium battery fires can be "impressive" nothing like as impressive  as the same quantity of usable energy stored as compressed Hydrogen going bang.

The UK's grid as it currently stands WILL have problems if we all move to an electric only/manly energy use , EV's are not the main problem (they could be part of the solution) , its the plan to phase out gas/oil boilers (and eventually ovens) and replace with all electric space and water heating and cooking  in areas where the combined load's were never originally anticipated.

The last "mile" is an issue, whilst most(but not all) homes have a 100 amp supply, it is assumed that the average usage is only 1/3 of that.

Nothing is insurmountable though , but just not as straight forward as some politicians would have people believe.

 

Actually generating the required level of electricity on a cold damp January evening , when large numbers of homes will all want heating, showers, cooking and EV charging at the same time might prove interesting at times. The current new build nukes wont even be enough to replace the existing and recently closed nukes, let alone the closed coal powered stations.

The large Hydro storage (they use more electricity to pump the water back up overnight than they generate at peak load times) relied on a surplus base overnight generating capacity

(our original nuke fleet ) that might not be so readily available when needed the most in the future.

 

Whilst obviously the most sensible solution is to reduce the amount of energy actually required , this does not sound very sexy so always seems to be the last option considered.

 

We could decide to spend billions properly insulating as many homes as possible , rather than finding ways to generate and store the electricity that will be lost as heat as it leaks out of homes.

 

We could decide to lower speed limits , even have different categories of vehicles , some for local use only , some for longer use only. We could then make vehicles lighter and more energy efficient, whilst not having to worry about high speed crash worthiness.

 

Most likely we will be moving to actually smart meters (not the crap that go by that name at present) and everyone being charged a constantly variable rate based on current actual demand V available generating capacity. Those that can afford to change their usage patterns and/or export electricity at certain times will do well, some of the poor and some of the less fortunate

who can't /won't/don't change their usage patterns will get a nasty surprise.

[AndyID]

Here's an useful opinion from someone who actually knows what he's talking about

 

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/7/5/hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis-of-water-is-now-cost-competitive-and-gives-us-another-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy

[black and decker boy]

21 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Here's an useful opinion from someone who actually knows what he's talking about

 

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/7/5/hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis-of-water-is-now-cost-competitive-and-gives-us-another-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy

Interesting, the article cites falling electricity prices (someone forgot to send that memo to my supplier) but aims his hydrogen future at industrial use and not domestic transport.

 

you are right, we need, as a population, to be given full & accurate information on all of the low carbon options so we can have sensible debate as a country and also make informed decisions as buyers & users.

 

im not bothered whether my car is a BEV or fuel cell so long as it’s reliable & cheap to run. I see info saying both are good for the environment and equally both are bad for the environment. The truth is probably in the middle and it is purpose & context that matter - BEVs will be better in some uses, Hydrogen in others. I’d like to have that data available and not rely on civil servants at DfT  or politicians to make unilateral decisions that affect us all.

 

sadly, experience tells us that is what will happen though and the ‘lobbying’ will be listened to.

[Grovenor]

The article is 4 years old, about time he updated it, a lot has changed in that time.

[shady]

35 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Here's an useful opinion from someone who actually knows what he's talking about

 

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/7/5/hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis-of-water-is-now-cost-competitive-and-gives-us-another-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy

Indeed , if it was not for the slight fact that his whole argument was based on ever falling Electricity and Gas prices (his predictions on that are just a little bit off).

Producing hydrogen by electrolysis for industrial use is one thing (we might switch to that regardless of  the cost),  using the process to produce hydrogen , compressing the hydrogen , transporting or storing the hydrogen to then either burn for heat/ road transport  or to create electricity whether by a fuel cell or not is a good way to spend a lot of money. (DfT are fully behind it, which should tell you something, mind you if you are are firm getting paid loads of money why care).

 

Perhaps you could tell me how its possible to start with one kWh of energy (electricity) use it to create (at best) 0.8 kWh of energy (hydrogen) then compress/store/transport that energy as hydrogen and end up in a situation (in the UK for energy storage or road transport) where the energy usage and/or cost of energy/usage is better than simply transporting the original one kWh of electrical energy in the first place?(transporting electrical energy is much more efficient). Even if you store the energy in a battery to use later it is still more efficient.  If you use the electrical energy for heat it is more efficient than burning the hydrogen in a boiler for heat. (The government want to ban all boilers and have us all move to heat pumps anyway).

 

Sorry but the laws of Physics and Chemistry trump economists and politicians every time.

 

A proper smart grid , with the corresponding smart gadgets i.e. EV's that only request to charge when their is an abundance of electricity or export electricity when its required/cost effective

to do so (unless the end user has set it to either charge or hold charge because they have a journey in the morning and need X miles Range) .

You can load shed heating and hot water heating to some amount as well , same with refrigeration/freezing . Given that we are going to switch heat/water/transport to electricity anyway why build expensive extra infrastructure. You could build twice the renewable generating plant in the first place rather than waste money/resources on hydrogen as an energy store.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Even if the article is a few years old, he's still right about fuel-cells in cars.

All manner of informed commentators and actual 'proper" experts agree that fuel-cells will be best targeted at larger road vehicles (trucks, buses etc,) and rail vehicles.

 

To change tack slightly, I saw this video about an electric bus that didn't use batteries. 

No, not a trolley bus or tram.

A Gyro Bus.

Ahead of its time?

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Mercedes are not hanging around with the rollout of their growing range of EV's.

 

The EQC went on sale 2 years ago. It's an EV based on a heavily modified GLC.

The EQA went on sale earlier this year. Again, a heavily modified version of the new model (mk2) GLA.

Also on sale is the EQV people mover, or mini-bus, again based on an ICE platform.

 

The very recently released EQS is their first "ground-up", pure electric platform, aimed at the high-end luxury segment (S-Class territory).

It's on sale now...........if your feeling rich............or actually are rich !

 

The EQB is due out shortly. This is again based on a heavily modified GLB SUV.

They also recently announced the EQT, an MPV in the VW Caddy and Citroen Berlingo category. Due on sale next year.

 

Now Mercedes have given the motoring press the first official look at the forthcoming EQE.

The second Mercedes EV built on a bespoke pure EV platform.

As the model name suggests, this is the EV in the E-Class category and should be a big seller with fleet and business users.

It goes on sale early 2022.

 

Simultaneously they've shown off an EV version of the latest G-Wagen, the EQG.

A top end, mega money Tonka Toy.

 

This time next year they'll have 8 EV models on sale, with more to come.

 

Before we get the usual complaints about the EV's being released, being too expensive, remember, this is Mercedes. 

They sell hundreds of thousands of cars in their respective mid to upper market segments.

You wouldn't expect them to be offering £20,000 super-mini runabouts.

 

 

.

 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, shady said:

Indeed , if it was not for the slight fact that his whole argument was based on ever falling Electricity and Gas prices (his predictions on that are just a little bit off).

 

 

Basically saying hydrogen works well when electricity is free so nothing new there.

 

My supplier is Ecotricity who have 100% renewable generation and my electricity bill has just got even more not free than it was.

 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

To change tack slightly, I saw this video about an electric bus that didn't use batteries. 

No, not a trolley bus or tram.

A Gyro Bus.

Ahead of its time?

 

Like a Parry People Mover...

[AndyID]

12 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Basically saying hydrogen works well when electricity is free so nothing new there.

 

My supplier is Ecotricity who have 100% renewable generation and my electricity bill has just got even more not free than it was.

 

 

It is essentially free in some areas. I drive past large wind farms where many of the turbines are idle because there is nowhere to send the power.

 

That was my point. That energy can be captured in the form of hydrogen and hydrogen generated by green energy is the likely the best hope for green airline transportation.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Mercedes-Benz EQS

 

 

 

 

MB EQE

 

 

 

 

MB EQB

 

 

 

MB EQT

 

 

 

MB EQG

 

 

 

 

.

 

[AndyID]

Speaking of the laws of physics or perhaps that should be the laws of chemistry, petrol, diesel and presumably their synthesized equivalents have energy densities around 100 times that of current lithium-ion batteries.

 

I think it's unlikely we'll be flying in battery powered airliners in the near future but never say never.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

One area that seems to get very little publicity or coverage, is domestic, lightweight vertical wind generators.

A few designs received publicity a couple of years ago, but apart from some DIY projects and some large commercial scale prototypes, I haven't heard much from this area for a while.

 

Vertical wind generators are compact, take up very little space and if manufactured in volume, could be sold for less than the price of a washing machine.

Combined with Solar PV, cheap off peak electricity and a Powerwall type battery system, they would seem to me to be useful booster and natural addition for many households (in suitable locations).

 

 

        

 

 

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[black and decker boy]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

One area that seems to get very little publicity or coverage, is domestic, lightweight vertical wind generators.

A few designs received publicity a couple of years ago, but apart from some DIY projects and some large commercial scale prototypes, I haven't heard much from this area for a while.

 

Vertical wind generators are compact, take up very little space and if manufactured in volume, could be sold for less than the price of a washing machine.

Combined with Solar PV, cheap off peak electricity and a Powerwall type battery system, they would seem to me to be useful booster and natural addition for many households (in suitable locations).

 

 

        

 

 

.

I’d be up for the whole lot if we could afford it. Suspect the NIMBY elements would have something to say here in the Chiltern’s though.

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I’d be up for the whole lot if we could afford it. Suspect the NIMBY elements would have something to say here in the Chiltern’s though.

Living very close to the coast and on relatively high ground, it can get very windy here and there’s a useful breeze blowing for a good percentage of the year.

We could install a compact vertical turbine where it wouldn’t be too intrusive and would barely be visible to neighbours.

They don’t have to be stuck high up or on your roof, if the location is suitable.

 

.

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Living very close to the coast and on relatively high ground, it can get very windy here and there’s a useful breeze blowing for a good percentage of the year.

We could install a compact vertical turbine where it wouldn’t be too intrusive and would barely be visible to neighbours.

They don’t have to be stuck high up or on your roof, if the location is suitable.

 

.

Lots of mini ones like that in peoples' gardens is considerably less to get annoyed about than the vast ones that dominate and completely change the character of the landscape.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Today (Monday 6th), a hot late summer day…..

UK wind generation sank to an average of 3.7% of total generated electricity.

Solar PV’s contribution was 6.5%.

 

They had to crank up the coal ovens again (3.9%) and gas burning accounted for 47%.

 

Sadly, there’s an awful long way to go.

 

 

 

.

[Ozexpatriate]

37 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

One area that seems to get very little publicity or coverage, is domestic, lightweight vertical wind generators.

Many of them are less obtrusive than the ones you illustrated - they can be cylindrical in profile and look not too different from chimney pots and not nearly as ugly as television antennae or satellite dishes.

 

I've seen similar designs to this one in dark green. (It just happened to be the first cylindrical, Google hit.)

 

Before air conditioning was ubiquitous, non-generating ventilators like this were commonly seen on big tin sheds.

[Reorte]

38 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Today (Monday 6th), a hot late summer day…..

UK wind generation sank to an average of 3.7% of total generated electricity.

Solar PV’s contribution was 6.5%.

 

They had to crank up the coal ovens again (3.9%) and gas burning accounted for 47%.

 

Sadly, there’s an awful long way to go.

Makes me wonder where the coal's coming from, most of the infrastructure won't be geared around to providing it as continuously as before to the remaining power stations - do they rely on stockpiles for times like this?

[AndyID]

According to this paper hydrogen bulk energy storage is competitive with battery storage. It's definitely not a "no-brainer" either way.  And hydrogen has the advantage that it can also be used to synthesize other high energy-dense fuels.

 

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/ee/c4ee04041d

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

My monthly update on UK new car registrations, hoping to chart the gradual shift in new car sales, towards EV and Hybrid vehicles.

 

The Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT) figures for new car registrations in August 2021.

 

Only 68,033 total new cars registered in Aug 2021

A traditionally quiet month, prior to the new September registration plates (71 plates this year).

(note: 174,887 new cars were registered in June 2021)

 

 

Market share by fuel/power  ........

 

Aug 2021

 

Diesel                            7.5%.     (down from 12.3% in Jan 2021)

Mild-hybrid Diesel       4.9%      (down from 6.9% in Jan 2021)

Petrol.                          43.3%.     (down from 49.8% in Jan 2021)

Mild-hybrid Petrol.    14.3%.      (up from 9.8% in Jan 2021)

Hybrid                          11.8%.     (up  from 7.6% in Jan 2021)

Plug-in Hybrid              7.4%.      (up from 6.8% in Jan 2021)

BEV (battery).              10.9%.      (up from 6.9% in Jan 2021)

 

The figures for BEV's haven't yet repeated December 2020's figure of 16.5% market share, which appears to have been a blip, but have steadily grown from 2.7% in Jan 2020.

10.9% in Aug 2021

 9.0% in Jul 2021

10.7% in Jun 2021

6.9% in Jan 2021

6.1% in Jun 2020

2.7% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Pure ICE (both Petrol & Diesel combined) now only accounting for 50.8% of the new car market,.

With diesel having fallen off a cliff and now only accounting for 7.5%  (less than BEV).

A comparison with previous periods...

50.8% in Aug 2021

51.9% in Jul 2021

54.5% in Jun 2021

62.1% in Jan 2021

76.3% in Jun 2020

80.5% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Combine the new Mild Hybrid ICE (both Petrol & Diesel) with pure ICE and the total ICE figures are...

70.0% in Aug 2021

70.9% in Jul 2021

74.1% in Jun 2021

78.8% in Jan 2021

83.5% in Jun 2020

88.0% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

BEV, PHEV & Hybrid combined, accounted for 30.1% , a quarter of the new car market.

30.1% in Aug 2021

28.9% in Jul 2021

25.9% in Jun 2021

21.3% in Jan 2021

16.5% in Jun 2020

11.9% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Separating out just the Hybrid's and Plug-in Hybrids, ....combined, these accounted for...

19.2% in Aug 2021

19.9% in Jul 2021

15.2% in Jun 2021

14.4% in Jan 2021

10.4% in Jun 2020

9.2% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

The rate of changeover will continue to increase over the next 12 months, as more pure EV's are introduced in volume numbers, in addition to the increasing number of ICE cars that are being offered with the plug-in hybrid option.

 

Note: As of September 2021, there are 44 different makes and models of new EV passenger car available, on sale in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited September 7, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[idd15]

8 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Today (Monday 6th), a hot late summer day…..

UK wind generation sank to an average of 3.7% of total generated electricity.

Solar PV’s contribution was 6.5%.

 

They had to crank up the coal ovens again (3.9%) and gas burning accounted for 47%.

 

Sadly, there’s an awful long way to go.

 

 

 

.

True but think how far we have come, we’ve been burning stuff for a long time and it’s not easy to change humans as this thread bears testament to! 

 

Onwards!

idd