AndyID Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, 30801 said: I read the quote as he's selling the conversion kits as a loss leader for overpriced fuel cells/maintenance. I suspect the airlines would prefer to buy a normal coffee machine and run it regular beans to use his analogy. The electric motors to replace the engines are (relatively) inexpensive. Unfortunately the fuel cells and other bits are very expensive but possibly not that bad compared to the other costs of an aircraft. It's certainly an interesting play even if it ends up going nowhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 14 hours ago, AndyID said: Hydrogen powered flight, maybe? https://news.yahoo.com/los-angeles-startup-test-hydrogen-110000309.html Can anyone remember the Hindenburg? In the 1980s(?) the Russians had a scheme for hydrogen powered airliners, quite rightly it was squashed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: Can anyone remember the Hindenburg? In the 1980s(?) the Russians had a scheme for hydrogen powered airliners, quite rightly it was squashed. 36 people died, less than half of those on board. Compare that with a modern airliner crash. What's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 Ah yes, the old Hindenburg argument. That has nothing to do with it and it's even be proved that the hydrogen didn't even explode. It burned and went straight up in the air. The doped envelope caught fire and did all the damage. Hydrogen is actually a lot less dangerous than petrol. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 Don't airliners use paraffin? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 11 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said: Don't airliners use paraffin? They do use something similar. What's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 The point is that airliners use paraffin because it is very much safer than any of the alternatives including, of course, hydrogen, which extraordinarily inflammable. Paraffin has a very high conductivity which , effectively, puts out a flame. Hydrogen just goes up. I don't believe Hydrogen is going to be the airliners fuel of the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Davison Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 Using that argument then all petrol cars should be taken off the road as highly dangerous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Jeremy Davison said: Using that argument then all petrol cars should be taken off the road as highly dangerous. Some have been down the years when fuel tanks were found to explode in a collision was it Ford in The USA that lost a court case along those lines years ago? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: was it Ford in The USA that lost a court case along those lines years ago? Ford Pinto. They got nailed when investigators found some Ford accounting that said it was cheaper to pay compensation for burning some people to death than to pay the IIRC $11 per car to have a fuel tank that didn't explode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 Plenty other cars have been as bad. Original Minis were quite prone to puncturing fuel tanks with the mounting bolts for the rear lights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted October 18, 2021 Author Share Posted October 18, 2021 Nissan have confirmed that the replacement for the current, 2nd generation Leaf, will be a small crossover style vehicle, leading to an all crossover & SUV range of models by 2025. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2025-nissan-leaf-become-compact-suv-third-generation . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 41 minutes ago, 30801 said: Plenty other cars have been as bad. Original Minis were quite prone to puncturing fuel tanks with the mounting bolts for the rear lights. Plus you ended up wearing the engine on your legs from a front end collision best car I ever had though, my 1984 Mini 996cc HLE with brown vinyl roof & go faster stripes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 15 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said: The point is that airliners use paraffin because it is very much safer than any of the alternatives including, of course, hydrogen, which extraordinarily inflammable. Paraffin has a very high conductivity which , effectively, puts out a flame. Hydrogen just goes up. I don't believe Hydrogen is going to be the airliners fuel of the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 Oh dear! What is happening here is that oxygen is being excluded so the flame goes out. In the real world oxygen is always present so the flame will intensify. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 1 minute ago, PenrithBeacon said: Oh dear! What is happening here is that oxygen is being excluded so the flame goes out. In the real world oxygen is always present so the flame will intensify. Indeed it will. But at least it won't be burning in a puddle on the ground while you're trying to get out of the plane. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 7 hours ago, 30801 said: Indeed it will. But at least it won't be burning in a puddle on the ground while you're trying to get out of the plane. Lots of things will burn quite explosively when combined with sufficient air, including iron filings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 1 minute ago, AndyID said: Lots of things will burn quite explosively when combined with sufficient air, including iron filings. When on my industrial placement from college doing electrical engineering I was in a large bakery. The bit where the flour & sugar hoppers were had all the electrics sealed against the possibility of a spark setting an explosion off... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, 30801 said: When on my industrial placement from college doing electrical engineering I was in a large bakery. The bit where the flour & sugar hoppers were had all the electrics sealed against the possibility of a spark setting an explosion off... I lived in Paisley when this happened https://www.paisley.org.uk/paisley-history/brown-polson-disaster/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted October 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, 30801 said: When on my industrial placement from college doing electrical engineering I was in a large bakery. The bit where the flour & sugar hoppers were had all the electrics sealed against the possibility of a spark setting an explosion off... During the fireman's strike I was one of many wading around in the dough, after a bakery exploded, just by what is now London city airport. There wasn't much left of the buildings but the other flour hoppers needed cooling to prevent another explosions. Edited October 19, 2021 by TheQ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 Ah the Gravy explosion Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Things tend to get a bit complicated. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/electric-vehicles-certainly-do-pollute-their-battery-packs-are-poised-to-be-one-of-the-biggest-new-sources-of-pollution-11634577011 I suspect this means is an additional cost (tax) will have to be added to the initial purchase to cover the cost of safe disposal. Edited October 20, 2021 by AndyID Moinfo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, AndyID said: Things tend to get a bit complicated. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/electric-vehicles-certainly-do-pollute-their-battery-packs-are-poised-to-be-one-of-the-biggest-new-sources-of-pollution-11634577011 I suspect this means is an additional cost (tax) will have to be added to the initial purchase to cover the cost of safe disposal. I think there are too many variables simply to extrapolate the future in a straight line from today: EVs are still in their (relative) infancy, and battery technology is changing very rapidly — see here, for instance, where Hyundai is projecting Lithium-metal batteries which would increase the range of their new Ioniq 5 from 300 miles to 500 miles. Other manufacturers are pursuing other avenues. Who knows what type of batteries will be the EV standard in 5 years, let alone 10? But if we don’t know that, it’s hard to work out the recycling requirements or the environmental consequences. What we do know includes: — car batteries can have a second life, as home storage batteries (this seems more plausible as the government decides our home heating must move from gas to electricity: combine that with PVs and the demand for home storage should massively increase just at the time loads of 2nd hand EV batteries are coming into the market); — the materials used in batteries are valuable in themselves and are therefore economically worth recycling. But I agree with you that this is all extremely complicated stuff. Paul Edited October 20, 2021 by Fenman Fat fongers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2021 At least in these early days, one thing that is being thought about by manufacturers of such batteries is their recycling, both from 'value of materials' and 'environmental impact' points of view. Whether what is being made today is 'easily' recyclable is questionable, but one hopes that it won't be an issue as we move into the electric future, if only due to the 'value of materials' element. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idd15 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 This is timely Precious Metal Recycling Love the way Big Oil/ICE lobby like to bang on about battery recycling, nobody seems to challenge them on their prolific use of cobalt to desulpherise fuel for example. Seems to me the only bit of ICE recycling that goes on is when they get their cat converters nicked! I look forward to when they get around to recycling petrol and diesel… idd 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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